APA,APFA & TWU

[iluvaa]

I have no clue what an E6 is other than a Naval First Class Petty Officer.

I said nothing about signing logbooks - I only made reference to signing for my work on an E58 or pattern card. I have no suspicion re: what and A145 might be nor a 0909 check nor do I care.

I've no intent of starting or continuing a "My job is more better than yours"-type argument with you or anyone else. If I did, it would be a simple matter to talk about the virtues of multi-stage pierce, form, slide-form stages, coil feeds, coil slitters and feeds, rolling mills, scrap choppers, sliding cores, injection screws, ejector pins and other gadgets of my trade that make the parts for aircraft that get rivets pounded into them by aircraft mechanics.

I pointed out to Red that signing for work done is not exclusive territory to a certificate holder but does require a cert holder designated as an inspector to approve the work done by non-cert'd personnel.

We have much larger fish to fry than this now - arguing about relative value of one's job is not one of those things.

No intent of starting or continuing a My job is more better than yours type argument, Dude that all you ever do is #### about going out to the hangar to help the mechanics out maybe if we didnt need your expertise every now and then maybe we wouldnt need your ass. Now every time I see a tool and die guy I have a chip on my shoulder thinking they have an issue helping out

 

[Frank Szabo]

No intent of starting or continuing a My job is more better than yours type argument, Dude that all you ever do is #### about going out to the hangar to help the mechanics out maybe if we didnt need your expertise every now and then maybe we wouldnt need your ass. Now every time I see a tool and die guy I have a chip on my shoulder thinking they have an issue helping out

I had asked a very simple question earlier - what did the older guys do when they had a problem? Did they run to their crew chief or soupervisor in effect admitting the inability to ream a hole for themselves? That's the stuff I'm talking about.

How about inspectors that can't inspect? The ones that can't measure a hole for themselves yet argue with those who can as to the correct way to do the job?

There are certainly items hither, thither and yon which do require the use of tooling we've built and use to keep you guys (and girls) from having to disassemble your airplane and I haven't a problem with that kind of work - that stuff is what we are but - I'm not at all happy to leave a job I'm trying to get done for another shop so they'll quit breathing down my neck for no reason other than someone in the hanger is unable to do simple tasks I know for a fact they were taught how to do while in training to take the three tests for their certificates.

 

[Frank Szabo]

I believe this is exactly what the APA attorneys intended to happen when they started this lawsuit against the company and have now got the other unions to play along to put the NMB in a tough spot, only time will tell where this Merry go round stops and who it favors but to my mind it is better than taking the beating laying down!

Agree 100%.

Even if the fight is futile, it's still better than giving up.

 

[Bob Owens]

How would you feel about line stations going to 40% osm's to help you reach your $50 hr. If I remember right you were against that so have you had a change of heart on that now

I would be against it. My point was not that I was in favor of it but that if the majority are still AMTs the vote could pass in Tulsa. Didnt the vote pass in Tulsa to bring in SRPs in the first place? I was against that as well and I feel what we did in 1995 set in motion the move towards outsourcing after 9-11.

I,ve never said that Tulsa needs to work for less, I've said that they cant keep making us work for less because they dont want to fight for more and they want to keep the headcount up. I realize that $30/hr is still good money in Tulsa and when you look across the ramp at Spirit you guys are doing pretty well, but when we look across our ramp at UPS or even JetBlue we arent doing so well and I suspect that a lot of guys would rather stay in Tulsa, even at $10hr less until they can get back to an AMT spot than bump out to New York or LAX. Your OSMs probably enjoy a higher standard of living than us line guys on the coasts, we cant give anymore, we need financial relief.

The fact is we do a lot of stuff in house that competitors outsource, now the company says they want to outsource it as well and they have entered into BK to get what they want. BK is a company friendly arena. Do they really want to send it out? Or is the threat of sending it out more valuable to them than actually doing it? Look at what the company is looking for. They want the freedom to send work out or bring it in. Why would they want language to bring work in if it was not cost effective? What they dont like is that once work is brought in it gets locked in. If they have the ability to outsource at will they can hold that over your heads to try and squeeze more work out of you guys. They try this on the line with the B-checks by trying to pit one station against the other. Well if they get what they want they can say "hey if you guys dont get those planes out on time we will send it out".

 

[Buck]

Why won't the creditors committee release information to the membership?

 

[Birdman]

Why won't the creditors committee release information to the membership?

They probably get some pretty good ideas from all the speculators on these boards. Informer has even given them a master blueprint to build on.

 

[Bob Owens]

By providing a process by which labor contracts can be abrogated, which isn't in the NRLA anywhere, the answer to that question is obvious. Case history thoroughly confirms that a company in bankruptcy can abrogate labor contracts.

What the 3 unions have effectively done is give AA the possibility of a second bite at the apple. If arbitration is agreed to under the terms requested and the arbitrator awarded more than AA wanted to pay, abrogation is still a possibility since AA didn't get what it wanted. However, if the arbitrator awarded less than the unions want the members are stuck with an agreement.

Jim

What is the NRLA?
Look at the ask and look at the 9 tests for abrogation, at least as far as the M&R ask.. Half the stuff the company asked for has no value attached to it. Its a wish list. AA mechs are already at the bottom of the industry, if the company got what they were asking far it would probably be the end of the airline. Guys like me on the line would be better off to see the company liquidate because history has shown when one of the legacies dissappears the others expand, and pick up the mechanics, in five years I could be at a competor earning around $8/hr more than what AA is proposing.

Two bites of the apple? Maybe but if the company agreed to it then decided they did not like the outcome wouldnt that be considered bad faith bargaining? Would the Judge overturn an arbitrated decision that was initiated in 1113?

 

[BoeingBoy]

What is the NRLA?

A mistake - should have been the RLA.

Wish list or not, I just hope you aren't still waiting for the retroactive pay increase....

Jim

 

[Birdman]

It's been said that this whole BK filing was an attempt to finally break the unions. If true, why would they accept binding arbitration, something they could have gotten outside of BK? Emerging from BK and showing billion dollar profits, like their competitors, will be the only way any face saving will occur.

 

[TWU informer]

Two bites of the apple? Maybe but if the company agreed to it then decided they did not like the outcome wouldnt that be considered bad faith bargaining? Would the Judge overturn an arbitrated decision that was initiated in 1113?

Here we go again. TWU Union Leader asking questions that should already have answers while leading us all down another path of risky strategy.
How much will this one cost us is the only valid question?

 

[strikeforce]

It's been said that this whole BK filing was an attempt to finally break the unions. If true, why would they accept binding arbitration, something they could have gotten outside of BK? Emerging from BK and showing billion dollar profits, like their competitors, will be the only way any face saving will occur.

the TWU needs to be very careful with binding arbitration because the one thing that AA hasn't asked for is 100% outsource of OH. That is an "industry standard".

 

[eolesen]

Would the Judge overturn an arbitrated decision that was initiated in 1113?

Absolutely, especially if the creditors committee decided it was not in THEIR interests to accept the arbitration award.

An arbitrator gets to decide what's fair compared to peers, the judge has to rule on what's going to protect the economic interests of the creditors.

Assuming the judge would even tolerate arbitration as an alternative to S1113, where those two mandates are in conflict, the judge still trumps the arbitrator. And since the judge can't pick & choose what doesn't click for the creditors, if there's disagreement from the UCC, the unions will be right back where they are now: S1113 discussions and possible abrogation.

I've said it dozens of times -- your ability to control the outcome ended the moment the company entered court supervised restructuring. And you had more than your fair chance, including a TA that would have probably survived S1113 as it has for other title groups...

 

[strikeforce]

Absolutely, especially if the creditors committee decided it was not in THEIR interests to accept the arbitration award.

An arbitrator gets to decide what's fair compared to peers, the judge has to rule on what's going to protect the economic interests of the creditors.

Assuming the judge would even tolerate arbitration as an alternative to S1113, where those two mandates are in conflict, the judge still trumps the arbitrator. And since the judge can't pick & choose what doesn't click for the creditors, if there's disagreement from the UCC, the unions will be right back where they are now: S1113 discussions and possible abrogation.

I've said it dozens of times -- your ability to control the outcome ended the moment the company entered court supervised restructuring. And you had more than your fair chance, including a TA that would have probably survived S1113 as it has for other title groups...

I will accept the term sheet over BA. I believe we will gain a few things here and there, but lose 100% of OH in BA. That's my opinion.

 

[TWU informer]

I will accept the term sheet over BA. I believe we will gain a few things here and there, but lose 100% of OH in BA. That's my opinion.

If AA wanted to rid themselves of 100% of overhaul wouldn't it just appear in the term sheet to begin with?

What do you base this opinion of yours on anyway? I see nothing that indicates AA Management wants to get rid of 100% of overhaul.

Like I said previously, your emotions over ride your ability to use reason and logic. Get help!

 

[strikeforce]

If AA wanted to rid themselves of 100% of overhaul wouldn't it just appear in the term sheet to being with?

What do you base this opinion of yours on anyway? I see nothing that indicates AA Management wants to get rid of 100% of overhaul.

Like I said previously, your emotions over ride your ability to use reason and logic. Get help!

Now that the TWU has opened the CBA to binding arbitration the company can change whatever they want including the percentage of outsourcing. The arbitrator will rule on ALL articles as to the industry standard. You're mistaken in thinking the company will stop at 40% outsourcing when their competitors scope allows 100% outsourcing of OH. The TWU is placing 100% of the OH jobs at risk, including your job. BTW, they may be placing 100% of all jobs, at risk. The TWU has a horrible track record winning system wide arbitration cases. I wouldn't be sitting too comfortably If I work for AA,as an amt.