APA,APFA & TWU

[eolesen]

PBGC is not getting the AA pensions why are they on the unsecured-creditors committee

They're an unsecured creditor because of the amount of liability the unfunded pensions represent if the company defaults.

Even if the pension is frozen, until the funding is at 100%, they will remain an unsecured creditor. And the freeze is right now a consensual item. If the company goes to abrogation, it's not exactly clear if they'd freeze or terminate. Freeze implies an ongoing cash commitment that terminating won't require.

 

[john john]

They're an unsecured creditor because of the amount of liability the unfunded pensions represent if the company defaults.

Even if the pension is frozen, until the funding is at 100%, they will remain an unsecured creditor. And the freeze is right now a consensual item. If the company goes to abrogation, it's not exactly clear if they'd freeze or terminate. Freeze implies an ongoing cash commitment that terminating won't require.

So the pensions (APA,TWU,APFA) do not meet the standard of a distress termination. So therefore the judge cannot rule that way. In the other airline bankrupisty didn’t the judge distress and terminate the pensions before a vote at the company’s request or is the unions getting a deal

 

[FWAAA]

So the pensions (APA,TWU,APFA) do not meet the standard of a distress termination. So therefore the judge cannot rule that way. In the other airline bankrupisty didn’t the judge distress and terminate the pensions before a vote at the company’s request or is the unions getting a deal

No, there's been no determination that the standards for distress termination cannot be met. The company offered to freeze the APFA and TWU plans in exhange for consensual agreements on the term sheet items, as modified by negotiation since they were presented. If the unions do not agree, I assume that AA will move to terminate all pensions under the distress termination provisions.

 

[john john]

The company offered to freeze the APFA and TWU plans in exhange for consensual agreements on the term sheet items,If the unions do not agree, I assume that AA will move to terminate all pensions under the distress termination provisions.

So if you’re a non-union employee your pension will more than likely be terminated or will the company offer non-union employee groups the same union deal?????????
Was the same freeze pension union deal offered to APA

 

[BoeingBoy]

You'd have to ask Horton...

Jim

 

[john john]

You'd have to ask Horton...

Jim

Yea your right the non-union work group is at senior management beck and call

 

[BoeingBoy]

Although that's a factor, it's mainly because no one here knows what would happen in various scenerios...

Jim

 

[WorldTraveler]

E has posted in the past that mgmt has not had a DB plan for several years.... while a freeze might affect some elements differently, the fact that the plan has not been active (presumably it is a separate plan) will diminish the impact to mgmt people.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Somehow I doubt that john john was talking about management...

Jim

 

[eolesen]

E has posted in the past that mgmt has not had a DB plan for several years.... while a freeze might affect some elements differently, the fact that the plan has not been active (presumably it is a separate plan) will diminish the impact to mgmt people.

Not entirely accurate. The management/agent/specialist plan is still quite active.

Around 2000, it was closed to new participants. Current participants could stay in the plan, or opt-out if they wanted to switch over to the 401K match and freeze their benefit. MAS is probably still heavily weighted to 20+ year employees, and I'd guess maybe 25% are either newer hires or did the opt-out/freeze.

They did not offer a cash-balance equivalent transfer into the 401K like some corporations did; had they done so, more would have probably taken the opt-out, but there were already lawsuits from IBM's cash-balance moves in 1994-1999, and it probably wasn't worth taking on the risk until 2006 when those lawsuits had played out. By that time, AMR didn't have the cash to front for a CBP.

 

[TWU informer]

AA has responded, can you say

NO

"The company and its unions are engaged in a well-defined, court-supervised process that is specifically designed to guide fair and equitable changes to collective bargaining agreements," American's Hicks said today. "Abandoning this tried, trusted and proven process now -- one that several other airlines have taken in recent years and has produced the best outcomes for their constituents -- could bring unacceptable risks and jeopardize American's future."

Gotta love that statement "The company and its unions" as if they own them.

 

[FWAAA]

No surprise there. If the workgroups wanted binding arbitration so badly, then they should have proposed arbitration years ago. Once AA filed for Ch 11 protection, the time for arbitration (and expensive early-out programs) had passed.

 

[TWU informer]

No surprise there. If the workgroups wanted binding arbitration so badly, then they should have proposed arbitration years ago. Once AA filed for Ch 11 protection, the time for arbitration (and expensive early-out programs) had passed.

Nothing management says or does is a surprise to you. So why do you bother to tell us? We all know your position before you share it.

 

[eolesen]

Nothing management says or does is a surprise to you. So why do you bother to tell us? We all know your position before you share it.

Nothing management or the union says or does is credible to you. So why do you bother to tell us? We all know your position before you share it.

(cue comment from Dave about "the twins" who are paid by management to be here)

 

[TWU informer]

Nothing management or the union says or does is credible to you. So why do you bother to tell us? We all know your position before you share it.

(cue comment from Dave about "the twins" who are paid by management to be here)

What do you expect? When someone shoots 180+ cars in the employee parking lot with a BB or Pellet Gun and management publicly claims it was a bead blaster malfunction, how can you trust anything they say? They claimed $500 million from the "working together" program also a lie. And I could go on.
Are you two identical twins or paternal?