APA,APFA & TWU

[Bob Owens]

Kind of like the vote 'no' coalition did?

BK was just a threat. Our pensions will be better off, in fact we might get two. The judge will give us pay raises. Outsourcing at AA can't happen because there is a mechanic shortage. Etc...

I noticed that the Techs are getting to keep their pay raises they got in the TA in the term sheets plus the 1.5%. By voting no it looks like we are getting outsourcing, lost retiree medical, and 1.5% raise off the 2003 contract rates.

That vote no recommendation was awesome advice.

We should have listened to those who have been through BK already.

Looks like you need to make things up to try and concoct an argument.

The average pay for mechanics in this industry is around $38hr, not counting Fed Ex or UPS. We should have Voted No back in 2003. You voted to give away around $200k to save the pension and retiree medical, well now they got your money and they are getting your pension and likely your retiree medical as well. At what point will you say enough is enough?

As far as the outsourcing, well they have yet to produce any contracts other than for the work they could not keep up with.

The fact is in 2003 we gave AA more than any competitor had given in BK. we gave so much that UAL, which had just accepted a TA weeks before we undercut them, had to go back for more because once the creditors saw what we gave up outside of bk refused to accept the deal. USAIRWAYS which had already exited BK had to go back in. We set the bar so lw that every other carrier, even non union had to go bk to get the concessions that we gave, in fact we still lead the industry in concessions, we get the least amount of VC, the least amount of Sick time, the least amount of paid holidays, the only unionized carrier that does not ever get double time, our agreement allows career decision days and permanent CR1 entries in our files, and by July we will be paid even less than USAIRWAYS which is in negotiations. When has an employer entered into C11 to lower wages when they were already paying the lowest in the industry?

For mechanics on the line we would be better off in the long run to see AA liquidate. Many of us have been there before. We know the drill. The millions of people that AA moves aren't going to stay home or take the bus. The assets would get picked up, reprinted and whoever has them would need mechanics and instead of making $34hr in 2018 and beyond, as AA is asking, we would likely be at around $40/ hr at one of the survivors.

The shortage is here, it's just being hid by overtime. I said it before and I'll say it again, if every mechanic in the industry decided to just work 40 hours and no more it would create a crisis, hundreds if not thousands of planes would be grounded.

Whether you realize it or not you did go through bk already, back in 2003, everyone else who went through after us, except , USAIRWAYS, makes more than us and gets more vacation, sick and holidays, at least till July when US will make more than us.

As far as the Techs how would you know what they are keeping and what they are giving up?

 

[dfw gen]

Overspeed is informer off and you stepped in for him?

 

[Bob Owens]

Binding arbitration more often than not favors parity. Isn't parity and precedent one of the guiding principles of arbitration. So that would mean 40% outsourcing, frozen pension (got that), and higher medical premiums. But maybe we will get a raise like Bob wants at the expense of a few thousand outsourced.

Doesn't the rest of the creditors committee have to agree?

Are you saying that we should lower the standard for the entire industry once again to try and save those jobs? Ruin the job for everyone to keep that work in house? I would be willing to strike to try and keep the work but I'm not willing to give my labor away for less to do so. I believe in maintaining good wages and benefits even if it means layoffs so laid off workers have a good job to come back to instead of taking a good job and making it a crappy job for everyone that people don't want to come back to. They laid off 298 people in NY, only around 20 came back, the rest said " no thanks". It's getting to he point where people are ready to quit before they get laid off.

We are already $5/hr below industry average, closer to $8 when you plug in the value for our inferior Paid Time Off package . We bring he industry average down. We are $17/hr below UPS. back in 2001 we were pretty much even with them.

Yes It sucks to get laid off, that's why seniority is so important but I've been there, and it never crossed my mind to say "how about if we cut everyone's pay so I don't get laid off" , Why bother with seniority, bump and roll, moving expenses and 12 5 language if we will just keep lowering pay and benefits to avoid layoffs? The fact is they take the money and they take the jobs as well, the only one that wins is the company. What did the Interntional do? Didn't they recently cut a dozen or so workers from the staff? Sure it's painful but did they cut wages and benefits to save heads?

If AA really wants to outsource that work, which I'm not all that certain they do, then they wil but there is no way that you are going to convince line mechanics that they should work for $10hr less than their peers at other carriers at the same airport doing the same job so AA can continue to work in house. Many of he line guys know that if AA decides to outsource that they may get displaced by a former base worker but they also know that's the nature of the business we chose. Maybe they don't have to convince the line guys f anything because thy have the numbers but then again maybe they don't because most of AAs competitors do still have some OH capacity, they mostly keep the high value work, will the guys that do that work be willing to work for less in order to keep the lower value work in house? Another thing to consider is with rates far below competitors and a shallow pool of mechanics out there is AA really that confident that they can get their bottom of the industry paid mechanics to produce? Like I said, with the proposed conditions, even at 50 years of age I would probably be better off seeing AA liquidate than succeed. If AA succeeds it just puts downward pressure on mechanics wages, if AA were to liquidate the surviving carriers would need more mechanics as they pick up AAs assets and passengers.

 

[Buck]

At $5.00 below the industry at $32 and the line mechanics that post here are advocating $50 or Southwest wages(dropping FEFX and UPS ), and the term sheet stating 40% OH/OSM at TUL. at $22, where do you think the wages are going?

If the line gets what they deserve, the only way to get there is to cut the wages of those that hold a majority voting block within the TWU
At what point will those at TUL attempt to find employment elsewhere? Maybe an MRO at $26-$28/he.

 

[Bob Owens]

At $5.00 below the industry at $32 and the line mechanics that post here are advocating $50 or Southwest wages(dropping FEFX and UPS ), and the term sheet stating 40% OH/OSM at TUL. at $22, where do you think the wages are going?

If the line gets what they deserve, the only way to get there is to cut the wages of those that hold a majority voting block within the TWU
At what point will those at TUL attempt to find employment elsewhere? Maybe an MRO at $26-$28/he.

If oh went 40% osms wouldn't that still mean that 60% are still at AMT rates?

 

[Buck]

Yes, however no one knows what the final parameters of OH will be.

I am curious if they reduce the support shops, how will they disperse any non-licensed mechanics, as the company has had a recent history of requiring A&P's on the aircraft docks.

No one really knows what the 40% is going to be.

 

[Frank Szabo]

By providing a process by which labor contracts can be abrogated, which isn't in the NRLA anywhere, the answer to that question is obvious. Case history thoroughly confirms that a company in bankruptcy can abrogate labor contracts.

What the 3 unions have effectively done is give AA the possibility of a second bite at the apple. If arbitration is agreed to under the terms requested and the arbitrator awarded more than AA wanted to pay, abrogation is still a possibility since AA didn't get what it wanted. However, if the arbitrator awarded less than the unions want the members are stuck with an agreement.

Jim

I think you missed my point, Mr. Jim.

Logic would have it that if the binding arbitration were allowed within the Chapter 11 process and the parties agreed to it, whatever came of the arbitration could be considered the "last, best offer" on the part of both parties, considering both had to agree to the arbitration process before it started and accepting the outcome. Any abrogation by the judge, at that point, would be tossing what was just arbitrated and replacing it with the same exact contract which would represent the company's last, best offer.

The two letters comprising that little word "if" become quite large here with respect to the judge's ruling as to whether or not binding arbitration can be allowed within a Chapter 11 proceeding. I can't find any precedent re: this question anywhere nor can I find any prohibition against it, not to mention there's not any "according to Hoyle" book, so to speak, that assigns values to the various federal agencies - ie, who trumps who. Getting a number of federal agencies, empires and egos involved is bound to be comic relief watching them dance and step on each others' toes.

I'm not an attorney nor a paralegal, however, so I really haven't a clue. Most often, the law doesn't work according to logic but the inevitable maneuvering and posturing is going to be rather comical to watch.

We've been handed lemons - my intent is to make lemonade.

 

[aapitbull]

I think you missed my point, Mr. Jim.

Logic would have it that if the binding arbitration were allowed within the Chapter 11 process and the parties agreed to it, whatever came of the arbitration could be considered the "last, best offer" on the part of both parties, considering both had to agree to the arbitration process before it started and accepting the outcome. Any abrogation by the judge, at that point, would be tossing what was just arbitrated and replacing it with the same exact contract which would represent the company's last, best offer.

The two letters comprising that little word "if" become quite large here with respect to the judge's ruling as to whether or not binding arbitration can be allowed within a Chapter 11 proceeding. I can't find any precedent re: this question anywhere nor can I find any prohibition against it, not to mention there's not any "according to Hoyle" book, so to speak, that assigns values to the various federal agencies - ie, who trumps who. Getting a number of federal agencies, empires and egos involved is bound to be comic relief watching them dance and step on each others' toes.

I'm not an attorney nor a paralegal, however, so I really haven't a clue. Most often, the law doesn't work according to logic but the inevitable maneuvering and posturing is going to be rather comical to watch.

We've been handed lemons - my intent is to make lemonade.

I believe this is exactly what the APA attorneys intended to happen when they started this lawsuit against the company and have now got the other unions to play along to put the NMB in a tough spot, only time will tell where this Merry go round stops and who it favors but to my mind it is better than taking the beating laying down!

 

[TWU informer]

What if there are some intelligent people that care enough to submit plans that will actually make our losses less and/or easier to deal with and prepare overhaul for a future instead of a future of failure?

In other words, what if the sky ins't falling and everything will be alright as long as we are willing to accept change and not be stupid and stubborn?

Let's all just wait and see what comes to pass within the next few months and stop taking the worst case scenario outlook based on rumors?

Some of you reading and/or posting should know by now that your job depends on changes, and not all of those changes will be as bad as some of you are making this out to be. Change is hard to accept, and that is human nature, but if you will just simply compare any change brought before you to the alternative to that change, then everyone will benefit both short and long term, and will find acceptance is the answer to our fears and potential hardships.

Good Luck!

 

[strikeforce]

At $5.00 below the industry at $32 and the line mechanics that post here are advocating $50 or Southwest wages(dropping FEFX and UPS ), and the term sheet stating 40% OH/OSM at TUL. at $22, where do you think the wages are going?

If the line gets what they deserve, the only way to get there is to cut the wages of those that hold a majority voting block within the TWU
At what point will those at TUL attempt to find employment elsewhere? Maybe an MRO at $26-$28/he.

Even at the current $33/hr...there are Line guys looking to move on. There's better and more rewarding jobs out there, believeit or not! It should send a message to ALL parties when 20 year mechanics are no longer interested in working for American Airlines. I happen to be one of them!

Buck, Line guys don't want you to take a pay cut.....the MRO's are forcing a wage cut onto to you because the alternative is NO PAY and NO JOB! The MRO's don't present a threat to Line guys, yet. But, when they do, I'm sure AA, UA & all the other carriers will look to shed thousands of Line jobs. We're not there yet!

I, along with my thousands of Line mechanic colleagues, tend to believe that your majority voting block is the heart of the problem on why WE are making the lowest wages in the industry. Maybe you should give the Line a shot at becoming majority and see what kind of Horsepower WE really have! You'll be surprised!

 

[strikeforce]

At $5.00 below the industry at $32 and the line mechanics that post here are advocating $50 or Southwest wages(dropping FEFX and UPS ), and the term sheet stating 40% OH/OSM at TUL. at $22, where do you think the wages are going?

If the line gets what they deserve, the only way to get there is to cut the wages of those that hold a majority voting block within the TWU
At what point will those at TUL attempt to find employment elsewhere? Maybe an MRO at $26-$28/he.

Even at the current $33/hr...there are Line guys looking to move on. There's better and more rewarding jobs out there, believeit or not! It should send a message to ALL parties when 20 year mechanics are no longer interested in working for American Airlines. I happen to be one of them!

Buck, Line guys don't want you to take a pay cut.....the MRO's are forcing a wage cut onto to you because the alternative is NO PAY and NO JOB! The MRO's don't present a threat to Line guys, yet. But, when they do, I'm sure AA, UA & all the other carriers will look to shed thousands of Line jobs. We're not there yet!

I, along with my thousands of Line mechanic colleagues, tend to believe that your majority voting block is the heart of the problem on why WE are making the lowest wages in the industry. Maybe you should give the Line a shot at becoming majority and see what kind of Horsepower WE really have! You'll be surprised!

 

[iluvaa]

If oh went 40% osms wouldn't that still mean that 60% are still at AMT rates?

How would you feel about line stations going to 40% osm's to help you reach your $50 hr. If I remember right you were against that so have you had a change of heart on that now

 

[enough already]

Yes, however no one knows what the final parameters of OH will be.

I am curious if they reduce the support shops, how will they disperse any non-licensed mechanics, as the company has had a recent history of requiring A&P's on the aircraft docks. .

They will do as they have in the past. Those guys will exercise their seniority and go work along side the A & P mechanics wiithout missing a beat.

 

[Mr Red]

How would you feel about line stations going to 40% osm's to help you reach your $50 hr. If I remember right you were against that so have you had a change of heart on that now

Must have License to sign for work and sign logbook !Per FAA

 

[strikeforce]

How would you feel about line stations going to 40% osm's to help you reach your $50 hr. If I remember right you were against that so have you had a change of heart on that now

well, if you're intent on diminishing the AMT profession even further let's propose it to the company....I'm absolutely SURE they will entertain it or put it on their term sheet.

Oh, it's on the term sheet....."an osm will be used when an A&P isn't required". I want my $50/hr!