Any Word On 757s?....

[ClueByFour]

You might also assume that for every vocal US1 that gets irked, there are probably 5 that you don't ever hear from, except in the form of no revenue.

I actually got a real live phone call from US this year, after I faxed them a few receipts for paid full-Y and J transatlantic travel on somebody else, along with the Q (or whatever relatively cheap) fare that I used to get into Envoy with a SWU or two.

That apparently got someone's attention.

I know for a fact that there are at least 5 other guys like me, who are currently working on my project and AA EXP status. What does that tell you?

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Piney,
. We appreciate loyalty, but the bitching has got to stop. Do everyone on this board a favor. If YOU are unhappy with US leave and don't let a flight attendant kick you in the ### on the way out.

I have never heard anyone complain soooooooo much about the same thing over and over again..blah blah blah blah blah

I, for one, truly appreciate Piney's loyalty and support for the front line staff and wish we had more customers like him. I find his comments here and on flyertalk
informative and entertaining. The same goes for people like Trlvr64, clueby4, Itrade, US2 (where has he been lately?) and the others like him. (sorry for the ones I've missed)

Go Piney!

 

[Twicebaked]

Piney,
. We appreciate loyalty, but the bitching has got to stop. Do everyone on this board a favor. If YOU are unhappy with US leave and don't let a flight attendant kick you in the ### on the way out.

I have never heard anyone complain soooooooo much about the same thing over and over again..blah blah blah blah blah

I, for one, truly appreciate Piney's loyalty and support for the front line staff and wish we had more customers like him. I find his comments here and on flyertalk
informative and entertaining. The same goes for people like Trlvr64, clueby4, Itrade, US2 (where has he been lately?) and the others like him. (sorry for the ones I've missed)

Go Piney!

Nothing to do with loyalty.

 

[Twicebaked]

You might also assume that for every vocal US1 that gets irked, there are probably 5 that you don't ever hear from, except in the form of no revenue.

I actually got a real live phone call from US this year, after I faxed them a few receipts for paid full-Y and J transatlantic travel on somebody else, along with the Q (or whatever relatively cheap) fare that I used to get into Envoy with a SWU or two.

That apparently got someone's attention.

I know for a fact that there are at least 5 other guys like me, who are currently working on my project and AA EXP status. What does that tell you?

That tells me that the world really IS full of choices. It also tells me that you are smart and look for bargains as do I.

Unfortunately, you can't please everyone and you can't do it for free.

 

[ClueByFour]

You might also assume that for every vocal US1 that gets irked, there are probably 5 that you don't ever hear from, except in the form of no revenue.

I actually got a real live phone call from US this year, after I faxed them a few receipts for paid full-Y and J transatlantic travel on somebody else, along with the Q (or whatever relatively cheap) fare that I used to get into Envoy with a SWU or two.

That apparently got someone's attention.

I know for a fact that there are at least 5 other guys like me, who are currently working on my project and AA EXP status. What does that tell you?

That tells me that the world really IS full of choices. It also tells me that you are smart and look for bargains as do I.

Unfortunately, you can't please everyone and you can't do it for free.

The problem, as most of the folks (particularly those on FT) see it is that US is trying to have it both ways.

You cannot drive up yield and drive out the cockroaches with substandard service and/or substandard pricing. You either have to offer a better product, better incentives, or better pricing. It's that simple.

BBB thinks he can offer a crappy product and that people will buy it with no incentives.

My reaction to that (as a sitting US1) is to fly US on my leisure trips and/or when the yield is laughable for the product I'm receiving. I define a $500 trip over the pond in Envoy as a loss for US. When I have a fare where I truly am paying thru the nose (think walkup Y from AMS-CLE, for instance), it goes to a competitor.

I prefer the frontline folks at US to any other airline, domestic or otherwise. I am continually reminded by upper management (particularly the folks from/under BBB) that loyalty is not important. So, the I take my truly profitable business elsewhere. Of 60k or so status miles this year, almost half of those are a result of UA travel. Yet, when I fly a cheapie fare on US, I sit upfront. Et tu, Ben?

Eventually, this will hurt me (like next year, when I won't make US1 again. Have to settle for US2). But not that much. I'll have midlevel status with US (and by extension, *A) and with AA (and by extension, Oneworld). US could have had every last cent, high yield and low yield of that traffic (except when I fly to places that US does not go). BBB does not consider that to be important.

There are many like me, and not just on FT. Longtime US1 and US2 folks who have chosen to "diversify" because they are either reciprocating BBB's attitude right back at him or have decided that the product (F/Biz/Coach) is no longer competitive. Eventually, this will kill off a great bit of revenue.

Chasing the full fare folks is stupid. There are so few of them around anymore that it's a zero sum game. Contrary to what Dave thinks, shrinking capacity won't solve the problem so long as the LCCs can get more capacity from business center to business center at the same cost as the "shrunk" US. That, and the full fare guy goes on vacation, and 9 times out of 10 is not going to pay full fare. Now you have an expectation problem.

Anyway, Bob and many of the more vocal US VFFs get this, and don't want to see it happen, because, like me, they really prefer dealing with the frontline folks at US. At some point, you cut your losses. Losing that midmarket FF will kill US. Trust me.

 

[MarkMyWords]

Bob -

Since I agree that this business decision is a good one, I am becoming a BBB cheerleader? Please. Nothing is further from the truth. I agree that the man should be thrown out on his arse. In my job I see what the bookings are on these airplanes. If they are going to the west coast, then most f/c cabins are booked over 12-16, most being full. In the Florida and Caribbean markets the f/c cabins are rarely booked over 8-12 and more times then not, the coach cabins are overbooked by an additional amount to ensure the highest load factor possible. Meeting capacity with demand is that it is all about. Taking a plane that holds 182 and raising capacity to 193 will add additional revenue to the flight without increasing the costs. I see the booking levels on these airplanes everyday. In the markets that they are supposed to operate in, it makes sense to reduce the f/c cabin to 8. I base my decisions on facts, not personal gain or the fear that I may not get a more desireable seat as a VFF.

Tom -

The reason that I said "usually requires 8 to satisfy most of the demand." is because there are rare occassions where we may be able to fill more seats, but the same could be said about any market. Do I think that we could fill 50 seats in f/c to the west coast? Sure, but we are filling all these seats with certificates versus purchased upgrades. Many of the flights that we have in/out of Florida are being flown with 734, 320, 319, 733 equipment. All of these airplanes have just 12 seats in f/c and nearly always have empty space in the f/c cabin. What we will be doing is dedicating these airplanes to leisure markets that will allow us to increase capacity on the routes, re-dedicate the 734's, 320's, etc, to other markets, and maybe make these flights profitable. Let's say we run 2-734's, 2-757's and 1-733 from PIT-MCO each day. That means we have 778 seats on the route of which 84 are in f/c. If we go to all high denisty 757's flying the route we will now offer 965 seats on the route with 40 f/c seats. I am telling you that the 40 seats in f/c more accurately aligns what the demand is for f/c seats in that market. If we kept the 757's configured to the 182 capacity, we would only offer 910 seats in the market of which 120 would be in f/c. There is definitly not a demand for that many seats in a premuim cabin. So now we risk losing out on additional coach revenues that we could be generating with additional coach sales.

Sorry, but this is a sound business decision. It makes sense.

The bottom line is that VFF's like Tom, Bob and Clue feel like they are being denied something that they enjoy, a premium seat. If you are a US1, then you will still have the ability to get those upgrades to FL. If I were to go to work and pull up availability in any FL market 8 dayss out, I can tell you with 99% certainty that I will be hard pressed to find any flights booked to more then 2.

 

[MarkMyWords]

And what does reconfiguring 757's have to do with ACY and competing there? We do compete with ACY with our PHL hub. To beef up ACY would do nothing more then pull traffic away from PHL. So what do we do next? Every time a low fare carrier starts service somewhere, we have to? Wouldn't that bring on the anti-competitve lawsuits that have been filed against majors over and over? Lovefield in Dallas being the first that comes to mind. Majors are always accused to putting the squeeze on the little guy.

Bob what would you do when faced with the same facts that I presented above? We have empty first class seats and inventory just sitting there, pulling our load factor down. Would you better align supply and demand, or would you continue to fly around empty seats that are not generating revenue in marginal markets to begin with? Would you add 27 additional coach seats to increase revenue and decrease f/c seats that don't sell anyway, or would you continue to lose money on these flights and fly around empty seats?

I would suggest that you do not have all the facts to make an effective decision and instead you are letting your personal feelings of being denied a perk effect your judgement. This is a sound business decision, cut and dry. I have seen the data, I see the booking levels on these flights daily, this is the right decision and you are not being denied anything. If we were to make a business decision like DL did by introducing a Song type product to Florida, then yes, I would say that we were making a bad business decision by alienating our top tier FF's and the upgrade possibilities they have come to appreciate. We are still offering that product but are simply reducing capcity to meet demand while taking marginally performing flights and trying to make them profitable.

 

[Hope777]

Piney makes the point.....the Business Plan is flawed! The days of "just" Hub and Spoke carriers are gone. With the exception of DCA we do not do much (Shttule and some Sat only service) Non-Stop service in many markets. Air Tran is now addidng DFW from BWI . Unless Ben can make some smart Marketing moves, this guy has to go! Hub N Spoke is dead and unless we look forward so are we.

 

[TomBascom]

Piney makes the point.....the Business Plan is flawed! The days of "just" Hub and Spoke carriers are gone. With the exception of DCA we do not do much (Shttule and some Sat only service) Non-Stop service in many markets. Air Tran is now addidng DFW from BWI . Unless Ben can make some smart Marketing moves, this guy has to go! Hub N Spoke is dead and unless we look forward so are we.

If I've been following Mark correctly he's saying (or strongly implying) that the reconfigured 757s are going to be used, at least in part, to open up point to point routes.

If so that's a good thing. Although I think I'd prove the concept with unmodified aircraft first.

If not then my concern is that a reconfigured 8F 757 will show up some Monday morning at MHT as a supposed "direct" MHT to MCO flight. But it really stops in PHL. And that a horde of US1, US2 & US3 customers will be duking it out for those 8F seats to PHL. 2 of them are probably thru customers and maybe a few more will connect up to the flight in PHL so sure enough 8 seats is plenty for PHL MCO. But it puts a real pinch on that first leg.

 

[deelmakur]

The company should hear it clear and hear it loud. Beyond the captive hub, the airline is not one of choice. Many fliers are willing to take a connect for a better seat. Remove the opportunity for that, and away goes the distinction between a conventional carrier and a discounter. The company tried to eliminate elite benefits for many customers a year ago. It miscalculated on the actual contribution coming from that group, and it learned the streets are not paved with full fare business pax...at least not the streets going through PIT and PHL. While they're getting out the wrenches to yank those seats, they might want to recheck their math.

 

[Hope777]

I said this earlier in the post, If the B757 with 8 F/C seats is going to Over-Fly the Hub it's a good thing. If the aircraft is routed thru the Hub, its a bad thing. Bottom line is WE NEED MORE POINT TO POINT SERVICE! Get that Ben?

 

[MarkMyWords]

Bob

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. This is a positive step in generating revenue and will have minimal effect on your ability to upgrade. I understand your level of frustration with the senior management of the company and your feeling that this flight has no one at the controls. But I disagree. There are things in the works that you have no clue about. There are programs and initiatives in place to address some of your concerns. While we all agree that we would love to see BBB walk the plank, I don't see it happening anytime to soon.

Prior to BK filing and prior to Daves arrival, we used to do a lot of point to point flying. LGA-FL, BOS-FL, even places like RDU-FL, BUF-LGA and MCO, ROC-LGA and MCO, SYR-MCO, ALB-MCO, etc. Guess what was the first thing to be eliminated in the downsizing of the airline? Now guess why? Clue here - They didn't make money for us! With the new cost structure that we have in place, who knows what could happen and I am sure we have a bean counter or two that anaylize that data far better then you or I could. Once again we all know that just because planes were full didn't mean that we were making money on these flights. We did them as a competitive response to DL and WN. I am guessing that when the new RJ/SJ's show up that we just may return to some of this flying, but with the appropriatly sized aircraft.

Tom -

I never said that the reconfigured 757's are going to be used in opening point to point flying. At first they will be deployed on leisure (Florida) and Caribbean markets out of hub stations. I am saying that these airplanes MAY appear on point to point flights in the future if the associated costs permit us to do so at a profit. MetroJet and the 732's were absolutely the wrong airplane to do that with when we tried it the first time.

Also, we are currently flying ex-shuttle A320's on regular domestic routes every single day and we have NO first class seats on them at all. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the airplane or the service levels because they airplanes are pretty contained on specific market/routes based on the number of first class seats sold historically. Routes like CLT and PHL to MCO, FLL and CUN are where these airplanes are generally flying and I haven't heard word one on here complaining about the lack of f/c seats. Why is that? Could it be that the demand for those seats are not that high in those markets? Hence the decision to reconfigure the 757's.

 

[ISP]

Lot's of talk about FC never being full on leisure routes.... Can anyone tell me what the F/C load factors are on the 767's that run MCO-PHL/CLT and occasionally CUN-PHL? Why the hell do they run widebodies on this route? Wouldn't it be more profitable to run 2 733's instead of 1 767?

 

[deelmakur]

No complaints about the shuttle planes because they have sufficient legroom. This discussion about First Class always morphs around to a "class distinction" thing. It is, has been , and always will be about personal space. When they get around to refitting those shuttle planes, the coach rows will be tightened. If a USAirways plane is no different from JetBlue or AirTran, in terms of comfort and what passes for service, many of us are gone. This morning's New York Times, usually the last to figure these things out, has an editorial essentially saying the same thing.

 

[TomBascom]

Tom -

I never said that the reconfigured 757's are going to be used in opening point to point flying. At first they will be deployed on leisure (Florida) and Caribbean markets out of hub stations. I am saying that these airplanes MAY appear on point to point flights in the future if the associated costs permit us to do so at a profit. MetroJet and the 732's were absolutely the wrong airplane to do that with when we tried it the first time.

Also, we are currently flying ex-shuttle A320's on regular domestic routes every single day and we have NO first class seats on them at all. I have yet to hear anyone complain about the airplane or the service levels because they airplanes are pretty contained on specific market/routes based on the number of first class seats sold historically. Routes like CLT and PHL to MCO, FLL and CUN are where these airplanes are generally flying and I haven't heard word one on here complaining about the lack of f/c seats. Why is that? Could it be that the demand for those seats are not that high in those markets? Hence the decision to reconfigure the 757's.

Ok, I inferred a bit more than you were saying. Thanks for the clarification. HUB to MCO et al is probably ok from a customer POV -- but do you get enough utilization out of the aircraft that way?

As for the shuttles -- as deelmakur says the legroom mitigates a lot of the pain. And it's not like you can tell the difference between coach and F service anymore.

I have also seen complaints pop up from time to time on FT when one suddenly shows up on an unusual route. People are aware of them and try to plan around them on the regular routes. Much as we plan around RJs. That's a counter-productive thing to have your customers doing -- sooner or later it hurts you.