Any Word On 757s?....

[ClueByFour]

Some passengers do pay for first I know I've seen the tickets. These are the passengers with the money and business sense not to wait and try to get something for nothing they know what they want and they pay for it.

Now US1’s do pay one way or another but still First is First and there should be some better way of providing this service so we don’t undervalue it like we have. When a US1 buys a really cheep ticket and expects an upgrade because of all the flying his company has paid for and he has flown. US1’s need to realize that if we are to use this as a marketing tool it needs to have some value to it.

I don't know maybe when you spend a certain amount not just how many segments you fly and I don't think they should be allowed to upgrade anybody else
now I have been away for a while so some things may have changed but it just needs to have some real value.

Couple of notes:

It matters not who pays for the ticket. When it's the employee's decision (as it is with many VFFs), all that US needs to know is that people can take their business elsewhere. If Santa Claus paid for the ticket but I get to decide who it's flown on, the issue of who paid for it is irrelevent. You seem to think that there is some difference because the company paid for the travel, and I'm here to tell you that such a distinction is bunk, at best (or for some people who read and participate on this forum even less accurate as they ARE their own company). If it makes you feel any better, BBB's moves pissed off my employer. Upgrades, or lack thereof, had nothing to do with it.

As for the "value" of first, US devalued it. Not the customer, paid or upgraded. When you get a bag/box meal on anything but a transcon, are drinking out of plastic cups, eating with plastic utensils, and starting into a falling-off seatback covered with blue pen marks, it makes you wonder who would actually pay the premium that US wants for full fare F (or even A4 fares on some routes).

When I last flew to DFW on US, I got the Einstein meal in front. When I flew (on an upgraded full Y fare) on AA, they plated and served a salad, hot meal, and a small dessert. On a plate. Drinking wine. Out of a glass. The US crew was far superior, but other than that, it was trounced.

 

[TomBascom]

Of the 1st Class going to Vegas, I would venture to say that not very many seats in that cabin are actually purchased. Most are Cert. upgrades or more FF miles.

Of the F seats on any route I would venture to say that not many are actually purchased.

 

[Dea Certe]

As CluebyFour said, it doesn't matter who or how the ticket was paid for; service levels should be the same. The days of easy pickings are gone. The sooner U grasps this concept and acts accordingly will the be day we start to turn ourselves around. UAL finally got it, what's stopping US?

I don't understand why there is such a begrudging attitude about holding up our end of the bargain. The airline industry set up the deal. Wolf sweetened our service to attract the business traveler. Most of us were proud to have our airline win top awards for that service. I know I enjoyed delivering it. We have to fly to destinations that people *want* to visit. It can't be all work and no play. I guess it's finding the balance that's the tricky part.

We are in a jobless recovery, which I take to mean the rich folks get to keep their summer homes while the rest of us get to mow their lawns for minimum wage. I believe these times will pass if we all get out the vote in '04! OK! Enough politics!

The leisure travelers have short memories. The business traveler never forgets. If a choice is offered, where's the incentive to be "loyal"? There's lots of choices today and maybe even more tomorrow. Shouldn't we as a company be taking care of our future? The business people will be traveling again but I predict in not near the numbers as before. We need to remember who is the bread and butter and treat them with great care.

Dea

 

[MarkMyWords]

Doc -

I am not sure if I am reading your post right or not, but I disagree with you. As Clue and Dea said it doesn't matter who paid for the ticket when it is upgradeable. If Clue's company pays for all his business trips and he choses to fly with us, he has earned the upgrades, even if it is on his 98.00 trip to Florida. While it may not have the value you think, it does have it's rewards when he is chosing who to fly for his business trips. As he said, as a sign of protest for how BBB has treated our VFF's, when he has a choice to spend 1500.00 to fly to SEA or AMS, he does so on another carrier. When he can fly with us for 200.00, he does so to prove a point. That really saddens me. BBB has managed to tick off some of our most FF's and in doing so has impacted the revenue that they bring in. Those first class seats have been devalued, but by our own company, not the people that are flying in the seats. We have stripped away almost every ammenity and really all we are givng people is a free box lunch and a bigger seat. If it was me, the first thing I would do is put the value back into the class of service and perhaps change who gets up there and how. Perhaps go back to the 20, 40, 60.00 upgrades off the full Y fare. Those upgrades can be purchased anytime before departure. for those that want to use miles to upgrade a full Y fare, then allow them to do so for 5,000 or 10,000 FF points, also anytime before departure. For our CHP, allow them to upgrade off any full fare, at any time, for nothing. These people did not get to be CHP's just on good looks, they fly a lot of miles on us and genereate a lot of revenue. If they have a discounted ticket, allow upgrades with miles of money 4 days out. US2's can upgrade 3 days out, US3's 2days out and US4's day before. While few, if anyone, actually "pays" for a real f/c ticket, our VFF's do "pay" for the courtesy upgrades in the amount of revenue and time they spend with us. They should be seen as less of a freebie and more of a way to generate additional revenue if possible, or as a Thank You for the amount of money and time those customer spend with us. Nothing in this world is free, you have to pay the piper somewhere.

Personally I think the upgrade system needs to be re-worked. But before you do that, the service has to be upgraded to something of honor and befitting the name first class. Dixie cups and box lunches do not speak very highly of the product we are trying to sell. Ask yoruself, would you pay the F fare for the level of service that we provide in a premium cabin. You may as well change the name from first class to coach plus (nothing).

Clue -

I do agree that 12 seats in F on the 757 may have been a better choice, even to FL. It would have made the entire fleet a little more common. My own presonal opinion is that the A320's should have f/c reduced to 12 also. Now would have been the perfect time to do it. Since they are reconfiguring the ex-shuttle a/c they cold have done the other 16 too. These a/c are used primarily for Caribbean runs and would be better suited for a seating capacity of 12/134. The A321's could also be reconfigured to 20/154 or 16/160 and do very well on runs to and from the coast. Again, this would mean really taking a look at where we fly these airplanes, where we plan to fly these airplanes, and make sure that we accurately align capacity with demand.

Again, just my thoughts.....

 

[longing4piedmont]

As CluebyFour said, it doesn't matter who or how the ticket was paid for; service levels should be the same.

The leisure travelers have short memories. The business traveler never forgets.

How true!!!! Great post and one of the best I have ever seen posted by an employee of US. You hit the nail right on the head.

I, like a lot of VFF, got very upset with BBB last summer and I left for about six months. I made a very poor choice and took my business to DL. In six months I gave them over 80 segments (read almost $30,000 in revenue) and almost none to US. I saw the error of my ways and came back. Why? For two reasons, folks like you on the front line and the CP Desk. I didn't forget ( and didn't realize) how well I was really being treated at US, not by Ben, but by you. My company pays the fare, but I decide who gets it. They understand that I'm on the road 4-5 days a week and they allow me to fly/stay with who ever treats me well.

This summer while flying DL to a city that US does not fly to, I flew on DL (ASA) and had a horrible experience. I have written three letters, have received only one semi canned letter back, and have resolved to never fly DL again until I get an acceptable response. Now since US is getting most of my business that is no great loss at this point to DL, but I can tell you that it is costing them $900 next week as I am taking two extra connects and flying metal that I never fly, just to avoid them. I have not forgotten.

Dea, I can’t wait to meet you on one of my flights. There is a BIG hug waiting for you!
And you have my name, but I not yours, so you are going to have to say hello

 

[TomBascom]

... If it was me, the first thing I would do is put the value back into the class of service and perhaps change who gets up there and how. Perhaps go back to the 20, 40, 60.00 upgrades off the full Y fare. Those upgrades can be purchased anytime before departure. for those that want to use miles to upgrade a full Y fare, then allow them to do so for 5,000 or 10,000 FF points, also anytime before departure. For our CHP, allow them to upgrade off any full fare, at any time, for nothing. These people did not get to be CHP's just on good looks, they fly a lot of miles on us and genereate a lot of revenue. If they have a discounted ticket, allow upgrades with miles of money 4 days out. US2's can upgrade 3 days out, US3's 2days out and US4's day before. While few, if anyone, actually "pays" for a real f/c ticket, our VFF's do "pay" for the courtesy upgrades in the amount of revenue and time they spend with us. They should be seen as less of a freebie and more of a way to generate additional revenue if possible, or as a Thank You for the amount of money and time those customer spend with us. Nothing in this world is free, you have to pay the piper somewhere.

Personally I think the upgrade system needs to be re-worked. But before you do that, the service has to be upgraded to something of honor and befitting the name first class. Dixie cups and box lunches do not speak very highly of the product we are trying to sell. Ask yoruself, would you pay the F fare for the level of service that we provide in a premium cabin. You may as well change the name from first class to coach plus (nothing).

Clue -

I do agree that 12 seats in F on the 757 may have been a better choice, even to FL. It would have made the entire fleet a little more common. My own presonal opinion is that the A320's should have f/c reduced to 12 also. Now would have been the perfect time to do it. Since they are reconfiguring the ex-shuttle a/c they cold have done the other 16 too. These a/c are used primarily for Caribbean runs and would be better suited for a seating capacity of 12/134. The A321's could also be reconfigured to 20/154 or 16/160 and do very well on runs to and from the coast. Again, this would mean really taking a look at where we fly these airplanes, where we plan to fly these airplanes, and make sure that we accurately align capacity with demand.

Again, just my thoughts.....

Mark,

Your suggested changes might make sense if they were coupled with fare reform. Otherwise they are completely unrealistic.

And I disagree with reducing the number of F seats. Try increasing the number of ways that people can upgrade instead. They should never go out unoccupied -- if they are then someone in marketing is doing something wrong...

 

[ClueByFour]

The leisure travelers have short memories. The business traveler never forgets.

An extension of this is that when the business traveler is on leisure. The entire idea of "business pax" versus "leisure pax" is a blurry line. I personally do both. I don't necessarily spend the same way on either. Furthermore, I don't always pay full-Y when on business travel--in fact, that's often not the case. I don't know that you can characterize things this way any more. (I know Tom has some thoughts on this score).

Mark-
For commonality sake, dropping everything but the 321s to 12F might make some sense (I believe that's more in line with UA and the like), however, you will piss off many US2 and US3s in the process. I'd personally be dissapointed if the 321s went to 20F. As a US1, I occasionally miss going to/from LAX and SFO and could rarely get the upgrade on these routes as a US2 or US3 (granted, I usually fly it on Friday night or Monday morning).

 

[MarkMyWords]

OK, so I went to far with the A321's. LOL

The A320's are our primary airplane to the Caribbean and could handle the 12 seats in first. They have similar seating capacity as the 734's and could offer some commonality seat wise with the 2 airplanes.

I guess my view is that the 757's should be used as our primary airplane in the FL market. From the Hubs to FL, from our large focus cites like BOS, DCA and LGA to FL. The A321's (with 26 f/c seats) should be our primary airplanes to and from the west coast out of the hub stations. There should not be a plane smaller then the A321 flying past DFW or MCI. DEN, PHX, LAS, SAN, SFO, SEA and LAX should all be operated with the A321, giving you the coach capacity and the f/c seats that our VFF's desire.

I think we all agree that the service needs to be put back into the f/c cabin.

I also think that the entire upgrade system needs an overhaul. Personally, I feel that the highest priority for those seats need to be the people paying the big bucks. I need to make it convenient and easy for Tom or Clue to get an upgrade, regardless of FF status, if they have a full Y ticket. That rewards the customer that spends the most first. Then we need to recognize our VFF's and their status, recognizing the time and money they spend with us. Make the rules fair and simply.

Again, it is just my opinion.

 

[MarkMyWords]

In a seperate note, i just saw that the 757 airplanes are going to start into the paint track this week. The 767's will also be going through the paint track aaas well. I believe the first 767 will be going at the end of Oct.

 

[ClueByFour]

I also think that the entire upgrade system needs an overhaul. Personally, I feel that the highest priority for those seats need to be the people paying the big bucks. I need to make it convenient and easy for Tom or Clue to get an upgrade, regardless of FF status, if they have a full Y ticket. That rewards the customer that spends the most first.

Actually, this is already the case (sort of).

Any Y and/or B fare can be upgraded at the time of purchase. They come out of a different fare bucket (for awhile it was I, I think it has changed with the UA alignment moves on the fare classes). In my experience, this bucket has either been F-1 or F-2 (where F represents the number of unsold seats of any bucket in the cabin). In theory, you can upgrade a ticket like this as soon as you buy it. In the likely event that you buy it inside your 1/3/7 day window (I don't usually make it a habit of buying Y fares months out), the theory goes that there should be some inventory for you to get into.

Regular elite upgrades come out of G (or whatever you guys are calling it now), as do (or did) US20s and the like. So, you exhaust the freebies, while leaving inventory for the expensive fares to get upgraded.

The system does not always work like this, but whenever I have bought a Y or B ticket (with perhaps one or two exceptions), I've gotten the upgrade.

The problem with the current system is that the pricing/revenue management/inventory folks occasionally do somewhat stupid things (like the $200 YN7 fares to the coast when HP came to PIT--I was buying them weeks and months out and getting the upgrade at the time of purchase). This defeats the purpose, clearly. It has since been rectified (at least on the fares I've looked at in the past few months, but I've been on the wrong side of the big pond a lot).

So, in a sense, U already looks out for the big fare spenders, by insuring that their upgrade opprotunities come out of a bucket that almost always has availability and is confirmable at the time of purchase. I'm sure somebody from RES (particularly any of the angels at the CHPR RES desk) can correct me on the current bucket identification and/or typical inventory levels in those buckets).

 

[TomBascom]

OK, so I went to far with the A321's. LOL

The A320's are our primary airplane to the Caribbean and could handle the 12 seats in first. They have similar seating capacity as the 734's and could offer some commonality seat wise with the 2 airplanes.

I guess my view is that the 757's should be used as our primary airplane in the FL market. From the Hubs to FL, from our large focus cites like BOS, DCA and LGA to FL. The A321's (with 26 f/c seats) should be our primary airplanes to and from the west coast out of the hub stations. There should not be a plane smaller then the A321 flying past DFW or MCI. DEN, PHX, LAS, SAN, SFO, SEA and LAX should all be operated with the A321, giving you the coach capacity and the f/c seats that our VFF's desire.

I think we all agree that the service needs to be put back into the f/c cabin.

I also think that the entire upgrade system needs an overhaul. Personally, I feel that the highest priority for those seats need to be the people paying the big bucks. I need to make it convenient and easy for Tom or Clue to get an upgrade, regardless of FF status, if they have a full Y ticket. That rewards the customer that spends the most first. Then we need to recognize our VFF's and their status, recognizing the time and money they spend with us. Make the rules fair and simply.

Again, it is just my opinion.

You're absolutely right that people who pay big bucks should be first in line for those seats.

And Clue is right that they already are. Buy a big dollar ticket and you can upgrade it immediately out of a different bucket than G. You can bet that if the qualifying tickets didn't cost 10x what a V fare goes for that you'd sell lots more of them.

You still hear complaints though because at peak times and on gouge-me routes there are large numbers of people who paid big bucks and who did not get an upgrade (think PHL->LAX or any Northeast city to PHL on a Monday morning...) This would be made worse by reducing F seats. It could be made better by adding 4 more to the 319s and the 737s B)

Business travelers haven't gone away. We just don't thoughtlessly buy Y fares anymore. To do so would be to have reckless disregard for our company and our customer's money. Trying to categorize a customer as "business" or "leisure" based on the fare type purchased is an exercise in futility and basically says that you don't know your customers. Nobody who flies on the planes and who spends time in the terminals with their eyes open would say that they're waiting for business travel to rebound. It never stopped -- only the buying habits have changed and they aren't going to change back. No matter how many ridiculous rules and restrictions get dreamed up -- those just drive even more of us into the arms of SWA & ATA and so forth.

 

[deelmakur]

Pull the F seats and you are no different from the low fare guys. At that point, you lose the pax who are willing to take a connect for a better seat. Maybe the effect is minimal. Maybe, like the uproar last year over DM changes, the company finds out it depends more than it thought on that traffic. Like a good poker game, you have to pay to see. Go ahead, make our day.

 

[USFlyer]

As a US1, I've often thought US has too many F seats. The A320s should go down to 12 and the A321s should go down to 20. In all honesty, the A321 F cabin size is ridiculous and, unless you staff it with 3 F/As, is nearly impossible to service well.

 

[PHL]

As a US1, I've often thought US has too many F seats.

US1's have very good perks above and beyond the top tier levels of other programs. Ask that same question to a US2 or US3.