Amfa Wantabes, Explain What Amfa Does Better?

Buck said:
Checking it Out said:
TWU is the Smart ones!!!

They are willing to understand who the compitition is in Maintenance Work!!

You should give them credit, They have allowed you to be a C/C by Hire in date instead of smarts and ambition!!!!!!
Smart ones?

It is the mechanic craft and class who have finally realize who the competition is. It is the Industrial unions who cater to the company. Who allow farming out of our work in house just to maintain a dues base. Who sprew a liberal left wing agenda through the collection of those dues.

It is the TWU who has consistantly blocked the attempts of the company to have a C/C board. Do you want the C/C board to become a reality CIO? I am fine with that, as long as we make all of the existing C/C's test and prove their knowledge.

It is your unions system and you dislike it?
Nice new buzz word(s) Buck: "in-house-outsourcing". Of course I suppose you would prefer: "we don't do that anymore, it's going south on Mingo Road"?

How many mechs who were laid off were able and willing to bump into those "in-house-outsourced" jobs. Do you suppose Nordam would fire their own people to hire laid off, highly skilled AA mechs.


Cheer up, you'll get to set union policy at AA soon enough. Not only can 20k mechanics be wrong, but they are only following the example of several million Germans, and lots of American voters. Never under estimate the power of good propaganda. It is easier to tear down than to build up and maintain what you have, in the face of opponents who don't have to do the daily chores but only criticize.

What has AMFA done for overhaul bases lately?
 
My name says it all!! Also known as Tottally Worthless Union and Toilet Washers Union!!!
I have been with them almost 20 years and have done nothing but go backwards. AMFA got us here at AA one good contract that TWU did not even match! One fair contract in 20 years with TWU and AA did not honor it to its full length!! TWU gave back 30 years of negotioations in a matter of 30 days.
This dog don't hunt and we need a new dog!!!! :down:
 
By Delle-Femines by his own words, the plan you have spelled out will not work unless the un-organized are organized in the Aviation Industry. With the increase in out-sourcing amfa has allowed in the contracts they have negotiated, they in fact opened the door for un-limited low cost 3rd paty maintenance to take our work.

CIO, you ever get tired of being a puppet or twu stool? AMFA does not negotiate work to be farmed out. AMFA negotiates work to stay in house. And at full pay. Not like the osm/srp brain storm by the international. AMFA inherited the iam contract at NWA that allowed 100% of work to be farmed out. AMFA fought down to 38% from 100%. That is light years better than the iam could ever do.

CIO, face facts. You are not an A&P Technician. You will lose your do nothing job in the twu when AMFA comes in. You remain a coward. And an uninformed one at that.
 
j7915 said:
Buck said:
Checking it Out said:
TWU is the Smart ones!!!

They are willing to understand who the compitition is in Maintenance Work!!

You should give them credit, They have allowed you to be a C/C by Hire in date instead of smarts and ambition!!!!!!
Smart ones?

It is the mechanic craft and class who have finally realize who the competition is. It is the Industrial unions who cater to the company. Who allow farming out of our work in house just to maintain a dues base. Who sprew a liberal left wing agenda through the collection of those dues.

It is the TWU who has consistantly blocked the attempts of the company to have a C/C board. Do you want the C/C board to become a reality CIO? I am fine with that, as long as we make all of the existing C/C's test and prove their knowledge.

It is your unions system and you dislike it?
Nice new buzz word(s) Buck: "in-house-outsourcing". Of course I suppose you would prefer: "we don't do that anymore, it's going south on Mingo Road"?

How many mechs who were laid off were able and willing to bump into those "in-house-outsourced" jobs. Do you suppose Nordam would fire their own people to hire laid off, highly skilled AA mechs.


Cheer up, you'll get to set union policy at AA soon enough. Not only can 20k mechanics be wrong, but they are only following the example of several million Germans, and lots of American voters. Never under estimate the power of good propaganda. It is easier to tear down than to build up and maintain what you have, in the face of opponents who don't have to do the daily chores but only criticize.

What has AMFA done for overhaul bases lately?
These are not new "buzz words", the TWU is the master of lowering wages to retain dues payers. Now the TWU is scouting farm out facilities to aide the company in maintaining a larger than required workforce. What I would prefer is for my profession to grow. That does not mean lowering wages to employ more workers that the work can support. I would prefer my wages and benefits back that "your" union conceded. Now it appears that airline traffic is on the rise and workers are being called back or planned layoffs are not going to happen. Yet the TWU gave any gains away.

It is it okay to keep workers on board if they are not required for the operation of the company at the expense of those who would be left? Why do you care about those who would be laid off? You advocate the SRP/OSM program. These mechanics are being held back by the policies of the company union, these positions should be returned to full mechanic positions and the wages paid accordingly. Why do you dislike these members so much, that you would advocate lower wages for them? Your AFL- CIO manifesto says

Article II: Objects and Principles

The objects and principles of this Federation are:

1. To aid workers in securing improved wages, hours and working conditions etc...

Why do you want to have members who have to work for lower wages?


I am glad that you are conceding our AMFA win so early. Although it will be through the constitution and the membership that union policy will be set.
That must be strange for you?

So now you are comparing the efforts of the mechanic craft and class to better itself to the rise of Nazi Germany?, and possibly the evil Republicans?

Something that is already torn down cannot not be torn down again. You are saying that 50% of the mechanic craft and class at American has no right to seek improvement through democracy? You cannot build on division and maintaining what I have is not my goal, maintaining what I had was a better goal and I as a member of my craft and class want more. Please do not take anymore away.

It is my right as it was the right of the founding fathers to criticize tyranny.

What has AMFA done for overhaul lately?

I do not know, they are not representing the mechanic craft and class at American Airlines yet. But they have not lowered the wages and benefits of those they represent. It is the 20 year history of the TWU that has conceded a majority of the gains made by unions in the past. Layoffs at NWA are in arbitration.
 
Buck said:
j7915 said:
Buck said:
Checking it Out said:
TWU is the Smart ones!!!

They are willing to understand who the compitition is in Maintenance Work!!

You should give them credit, They have allowed you to be a C/C by Hire in date instead of smarts and ambition!!!!!!
Smart ones?

It is the mechanic craft and class who have finally realize who the competition is. It is the Industrial unions who cater to the company. Who allow farming out of our work in house just to maintain a dues base. Who sprew a liberal left wing agenda through the collection of those dues.

It is the TWU who has consistantly blocked the attempts of the company to have a C/C board. Do you want the C/C board to become a reality CIO? I am fine with that, as long as we make all of the existing C/C's test and prove their knowledge.

It is your unions system and you dislike it?
Nice new buzz word(s) Buck: "in-house-outsourcing". Of course I suppose you would prefer: "we don't do that anymore, it's going south on Mingo Road"?

How many mechs who were laid off were able and willing to bump into those "in-house-outsourced" jobs. Do you suppose Nordam would fire their own people to hire laid off, highly skilled AA mechs.


Cheer up, you'll get to set union policy at AA soon enough. Not only can 20k mechanics be wrong, but they are only following the example of several million Germans, and lots of American voters. Never under estimate the power of good propaganda. It is easier to tear down than to build up and maintain what you have, in the face of opponents who don't have to do the daily chores but only criticize.

What has AMFA done for overhaul bases lately?
These are not new "buzz words", the TWU is the master of lowering wages to retain dues payers. Now the TWU is scouting farm out facilities to aide the company in maintaining a larger than required workforce. What I would prefer is for my profession to grow. That does not mean lowering wages to employ more workers that the work can support. I would prefer my wages and benefits back that "your" union conceded. Now it appears that airline traffic is on the rise and workers are being called back or planned layoffs are not going to happen. Yet the TWU gave any gains away.

It is it okay to keep workers on board if they are not required for the operation of the company at the expense of those who would be left? Why do you care about those who would be laid off? You advocate the SRP/OSM program. These mechanics are being held back by the policies of the company union, these positions should be returned to full mechanic positions and the wages paid accordingly. Why do you dislike these members so much, that you would advocate lower wages for them? Your AFL- CIO manifesto says

Article II: Objects and Principles

The objects and principles of this Federation are:

1. To aid workers in securing improved wages, hours and working conditions etc...

Why do you want to have members who have to work for lower wages?


I am glad that you are conceding our AMFA win so early. Although it will be through the constitution and the membership that union policy will be set.
That must be strange for you?

So now you are comparing the efforts of the mechanic craft and class to better itself to the rise of Nazi Germany?, and possibly the evil Republicans?

Something that is already torn down cannot not be torn down again. You are saying that 50% of the mechanic craft and class at American has no right to seek improvement through democracy? You cannot build on division and maintaining what I have is not my goal, maintaining what I had was a better goal and I as a member of my craft and class want more. Please do not take anymore away.

It is my right as it was the right of the founding fathers to criticize tyranny.

What has AMFA done for overhaul lately?

I do not know, they are not representing the mechanic craft and class at American Airlines yet. But they have not lowered the wages and benefits of those they represent. It is the 20 year history of the TWU that has conceded a majority of the gains made by unions in the past. Layoffs at NWA are in arbitration.
Buck I am glad that you finally admit that you don't have a clue what AMFA has done at NWA. So we are all supposed to be voting for a blackhorse candidate.

I am not saying that mechanics should work for less. Our customers are voting with their dollars and the winners are the low cost, outsource everything carriers. Or are you so blind that you have not noticed that?

You call call yourself a highly skilled technician, then why are you fighting to keep people who are not as skilled from getting jobs they can handle? Will the person in the seat or wheel shop dilute your skills?

You only have three choices: the back shops with OSMs either employ OSMs or they contract out, third choice is a slow financial ruin.
 
j7915,

How come we dont have the choice to become more productive and demand more compensation in exchange?

Why is it always a concession choice with the TWU advocates?
 
j7915 said:
Buck said:
j7915 said:
Buck said:
Checking it Out said:
TWU is the Smart ones!!!

They are willing to understand who the compitition is in Maintenance Work!!

You should give them credit, They have allowed you to be a C/C by Hire in date instead of smarts and ambition!!!!!!
Smart ones?

It is the mechanic craft and class who have finally realize who the competition is. It is the Industrial unions who cater to the company. Who allow farming out of our work in house just to maintain a dues base. Who sprew a liberal left wing agenda through the collection of those dues.

It is the TWU who has consistantly blocked the attempts of the company to have a C/C board. Do you want the C/C board to become a reality CIO? I am fine with that, as long as we make all of the existing C/C's test and prove their knowledge.

It is your unions system and you dislike it?
Nice new buzz word(s) Buck: "in-house-outsourcing". Of course I suppose you would prefer: "we don't do that anymore, it's going south on Mingo Road"?

How many mechs who were laid off were able and willing to bump into those "in-house-outsourced" jobs. Do you suppose Nordam would fire their own people to hire laid off, highly skilled AA mechs.


Cheer up, you'll get to set union policy at AA soon enough. Not only can 20k mechanics be wrong, but they are only following the example of several million Germans, and lots of American voters. Never under estimate the power of good propaganda. It is easier to tear down than to build up and maintain what you have, in the face of opponents who don't have to do the daily chores but only criticize.

What has AMFA done for overhaul bases lately?
These are not new "buzz words", the TWU is the master of lowering wages to retain dues payers. Now the TWU is scouting farm out facilities to aide the company in maintaining a larger than required workforce. What I would prefer is for my profession to grow. That does not mean lowering wages to employ more workers that the work can support. I would prefer my wages and benefits back that "your" union conceded. Now it appears that airline traffic is on the rise and workers are being called back or planned layoffs are not going to happen. Yet the TWU gave any gains away.

It is it okay to keep workers on board if they are not required for the operation of the company at the expense of those who would be left? Why do you care about those who would be laid off? You advocate the SRP/OSM program. These mechanics are being held back by the policies of the company union, these positions should be returned to full mechanic positions and the wages paid accordingly. Why do you dislike these members so much, that you would advocate lower wages for them? Your AFL- CIO manifesto says

Article II: Objects and Principles

The objects and principles of this Federation are:

1. To aid workers in securing improved wages, hours and working conditions etc...

Why do you want to have members who have to work for lower wages?


I am glad that you are conceding our AMFA win so early. Although it will be through the constitution and the membership that union policy will be set.
That must be strange for you?

So now you are comparing the efforts of the mechanic craft and class to better itself to the rise of Nazi Germany?, and possibly the evil Republicans?

Something that is already torn down cannot not be torn down again. You are saying that 50% of the mechanic craft and class at American has no right to seek improvement through democracy? You cannot build on division and maintaining what I have is not my goal, maintaining what I had was a better goal and I as a member of my craft and class want more. Please do not take anymore away.

It is my right as it was the right of the founding fathers to criticize tyranny.

What has AMFA done for overhaul lately?

I do not know, they are not representing the mechanic craft and class at American Airlines yet. But they have not lowered the wages and benefits of those they represent. It is the 20 year history of the TWU that has conceded a majority of the gains made by unions in the past. Layoffs at NWA are in arbitration.
Buck I am glad that you finally admit that you don't have a clue what AMFA has done at NWA. So we are all supposed to be voting for a blackhorse candidate.

I am not saying that mechanics should work for less. Our customers are voting with their dollars and the winners are the low cost, outsource everything carriers. Or are you so blind that you have not noticed that?

You call call yourself a highly skilled technician, then why are you fighting to keep people who are not as skilled from getting jobs they can handle? Will the person in the seat or wheel shop dilute your skills?

You only have three choices: the back shops with OSMs either employ OSMs or they contract out, third choice is a slow financial ruin.
There is no finality to it. I do not work at NWA. To state that I really know what is going on would really ignorant on my part. Just as I cannot expect you to know everything that goes on at every AFL-CIO affiliated union. Try again.

I am not familiar with your term "BlackHorse Candidate"?

But I do know what a "Yellow Dog Democrat" is.


You are not saying that mechanics should work for less, you are just an advocate of this. Your policy has always been to screw the future member who is not even hired yet. Now the TWU is attempting to promote some form of outsourcing by aiding the company in visiting Singapore in San Antonio. Is this an attempt to gain new dues payers? I am not blind to any of the efforts of the company and it's lapdog union from working together to just gain dues payers. As I "buzzed" before, the TWU outsources in house every day and you advocate it. What is the percentage of represented members in the mechanic craft and class who are in the OSM classification? This plus the 50% of the component work, plus whatever else you do not know about, this is the total of outsourcing at AA. Are you so blind that you cannot see this?

Who said I was fighting to keep anyone from having the ability to further themselves, they can go to school just as I and many others have. Why do you advocate that the machinist and welders can come to the aircraft docks, yet Red Circle these shops from the mechanics? Can they not handle this work? THe person in the seat shop or wheel shop are members of the craft and class of the mechanic. How would they dilute my skill? They are mechanics, the same as I only the TWU has forced them to take less money for their labor.

So your only solutions are to advocate lower wages and aide the company is its efforts to gain our employment for virtually free. Why do you advocate the OSM classification? these mechanics should be paid as any other as it was in the past.
 
RV4 said:
j7915,

How come we dont have the choice to become more productive and demand more compensation in exchange?

Why is it always a concession choice with the TWU advocates?
RV4

thanks for that post, once again the like minded thinking of AMFA supporters reiterates why I back this movement. I've been with the TWU for 16 years and not one time ever have they mentioned production. This was brought up at work the other day by other mechanics and everyone is pretty agrivated that this option was never on the table.

We both know why this is though, its about dues. Industrial unions want 100 people working at $30 an hour verses 75 at $35 an hour. This way of thinking is out dated and until something is done to change it we will continue on our downward slide.
Tulsa has the largest maintenance facility in the world yet the output is a fraction of what it could be. With the experience level throughout the AA system there shouldnt be any one out there that could compete with us.

I would rather have a slogan frase that said MOST PRODUCTIVE WORKERS IN THE WORLD not (best workers in the world).

Bottom line is all the pay and benefits we lost are within reach but its going to take a more buisness oriented philosophy to get them back.
 
Checking it Out said:
Bob, Great speech except for a couple of problems.

1. 52% of the maintenance work is out-sourced to 3rd parties. Now their is even groups starting line Maintenance. Their cost structure when you add all the unexpected costs are still 15 to 20% lower.

By Delle-Femines by his own words, the plan you have spelled out will not work unless the un-organized are organized in the Aviation Industry. With the increase in out-sourcing amfa has allowed in the contracts they have negotiated, they in fact opened the door for un-limited low cost 3rd paty maintenance to take our work.

The majority of the members named job security as the #1 issue and Retirement as #2. The TWU stood up and achived both with minimal layoffs. Something amfa and IAM were unsuccess at doing.

The timco's are here to stay and will continue to dominate and dictate wages. Nothing we can do to stop the trend from taking place! Thanks to the lack of experience on amfa's part. I will give you credit yes amfa did get top wages, But at what cost? Jobs. Massive percentages of jobs.

On top of this amfa is a corporation farming-out to 3rd party work to the McCormick group and he is making millions off the dues of the members!!!!

Their is really no difference between amfa or the TWU in their structure other than how you vote on the leaders, but you know both have conventions and both elect during the conventions.

And both elect the individuals to attend the conventions, Now the locals represent many different Airlines the same as the TWU. Deep down they both are after our dues!!!!!! Is amfa natl and TWU Natl both 3rd party entities now?


What is your veiw on third party Maintenance growing in leaps and bounds?
SCOPE.

Scope language is the key to keeping work in house not slashing wages and benefits. But, it means that you have to be willing to fight for it. This Union has been giving back more, more in wages, benefits and workrules than any other union for 20 years. Our capitulations over the last twenty years made it harder for other unions to fight because time after time we undercut them. The TWU consistantly gave the strongest airline industry leading concessions, all airline workers suffered as the TWU watched the ranks of dues payers swell at a pace where the increase in members more than compensated for the lower per capita from each individual member.

This union is the best thing to happen to the airlines, even ones that do not have the TWU, the worst thing to happen to airline workers.

Your arguements are basically saying that even when we act collectively that we have no power, that we must agree to either lower wages and benefits or lose the work. Well what ever happened to the idea of fighting to keep the work and get more pay? The fact is that if the union were to go on strike it would still, even in this economy, cripple the company. The company did not have all the cards, the union simply folded. The problem is that there is only one thing that you guys would ever call a strike for-check-off. You will always have loads of company provided excuses as to why we should settle for less.

Your accusation that AMFA contracts "opened the door for unlimited low cost maintenance to take our work", makes no sense. None of the airlines that AMFA represented ever was much of a competitor to AA.We do not work under their contract and A&Ps have lost more work at AA than any other airline, the only difference is that the union has maintained its dues base. Push backs, deicing, B-scale, long progressions, employee contributed health benifits, prefunding, no doubletime, no holiday pay are all TWU accomplishments.

The TWU did not achieve either job security or retirement. Thousands were laid off in addition to the cuts and the pension is still underfunded. When was the vote where the members said that those were the two top issues?

TIMCO dictates wages? Then why should we pay dues to the TWU?

If the members dont want McCormick to provide the services it does they can vote them out. How can we vote out you or Little?



I'm an A&P mechanic, and this union has done more to harm my profession than any other union. All the TWU cares about is keeping the dues coming in, even if it means ruining our profession. This union does not represent the interests of A&P mechanics.


I attended the Convention. It was a farce. Most were more concerned with getting the business done so they could go play in Vegas. Voice votes are entirely impractical, offer no accountability and can not be considered accurate. Many Conventions. those that are run with a respect towards Democracy and accountability use electronic voting to ensure that the members get both. Our Convention provided neither.

It is my understanding that acceptance of the resolutions passed in the Conventions have to then be approved by the members, we have no such process in the TWU.

How come most Locals have yet to recieve the minutes from the 2001 Convention? I managed to get a copy. It makes interesting reading. Over and over again Sonny Hall makes the claim of running a Democratic Union, in between manipulating the votes by calling for two ayes and saying the ayes have it and cutting the nay votes short by not saying "say Nay". The whole specticle reminded me of how the Soviets always claimed they were democratic also. Much of Sonnys style mimics that of Stalin. Purges, the way he has insulated and removed himself from the members,an obsession with power and an ability to retain it despite the fact that most of the members who even know his name dislike him, make him the typical despot. Unfortunately the only way he is likely to be removed is as Stanley Aronowitx said is "by death or indictment".

Yes both are after our dues, however its what they are going to do with those dues that makes the difference. With the TWU our dues go towards expensive office space on Broadway that provide zero benefit to our members, whether they are Mechanics at AA, Flight attendants at SWA or trolly car operators in San Francisco or Philidelphia. How does the $350,000 that they spent on new cars last year help the members? These expenditures are nothing more than indulgences on the part of the International at our expense. The International can do this because they know that they are unaccountable to the members. AMFA's mission is to promote the craft, what is the TWUs mission and how have they served that mission? Does the TWU's mission include promoting the craft that us A&Ps made a substantial investment in? Or is it completely indifferent to the value of our liscence?

What the unions should be doing about third party maintenance is ORGANIZING!!
 
Checking it Out said:

The TWU, IBT,IAM and the hundreds of others were created to protect us from Corporate America and the injustice our Brithers and Sisters were subjected too.

Please explain why we should support AMFA?


How about because the TWU, IBT and IAM are FAILURES! Especially when it comes to the A&P Mechanic.
WAKE UP!!!
 
j7915 said:
Buck I am glad that you finally admit that you don't have a clue what AMFA has done at NWA. So we are all supposed to be voting for a blackhorse candidate.

I am not saying that mechanics should work for less. Our customers are voting with their dollars and the winners are the low cost, outsource everything carriers. Or are you so blind that you have not noticed that?

You call call yourself a highly skilled technician, then why are you fighting to keep people who are not as skilled from getting jobs they can handle? Will the person in the seat or wheel shop dilute your skills?

You only have three choices: the back shops with OSMs either employ OSMs or they contract out, third choice is a slow financial ruin.
There is a thing called "economies of scale" that dictates why smaller airlines outsourse while the larger airlines do more in house.

SWA, despite the fact that it pays its mechanics $6/more than us plus holiday pay, doubletime etc, has announced plans to bring more overhaul in house. Its growth makes this a good move for the company.

The fact is that work was brought in house at AA and will be at SWA because it is more efficient and less costly once the company has enough work- providing they are well managed. While todays aircraft require less maintenance than they did years ago for an airline the size of AA it should enjoy a cost advantage over carriers that outsource their work to a company that makes a profit doing that work. The profit that the outsouce company makes comes out of the company that sends the work there. In addition to this the company that does the work in house should enjoy better quality control and more control over the amount of service time that is lost. Higher quality should result in operational savings that can often be hard to quantify in the short term. I have to wonder if these factors were ever added in by CIO when he talks about outsourcing being 20% cheaper? You would hope that our representatives would make such arguments in our behalf to the company.

There is more to the "cost" than simply what the carrier pays per manhour. Many of the "costs" continue to add up as the aircraft is in being overhauled such as lease payments, depreciation, loss of use, etc.

The sad part about all of this is that Tulsa failed to realize line maintenance could have been used to their advantage in a way the benefitted both of us. While they threw all those threats at TULSA, Tulsa forgot that the strike threat is just as valid as it was two years earlier when the company matched NWA. We could still shut them down. We knew this, thats why the line rejected the concessions by a wide margin. Only 17 mechanics out of JFK voted yes, and two of our mechanics are International Reps (Bobby Gless and Levere Deane).

Most airlines do their own line maintenance. The only airline that I knew of that outsourced all of their line maint was Peoples Express. Probably because of our typically cynical nature and People's cult-like corporate culture. We simply would not fit into Peoples culture. This same inherent individualist nature that inhibits our unionism.

As far as I know they always contracted out all their overhaul.

However Peoples Express became known as Peoples distress. Part of the problem was that the subcontractor and its mechanics had no link to the company or its vision. This was likely true of both the overhaul provider and line maint provider. It was in their best interest to find a way to keep the airplane in work so they could bill the carrier more and the mechanics could make more money on OT.

When you look at maintenance costs and then break it down, labor is only a component of that cost. While wage cuts can show apparently tangible savings the lower morale that the cut causes is much harder to measure but when all the other costs are added in could end up costing more than the savings many times over.

Lets look at line maintenance. If an airplane breaks down, and the mechanics working it are unmotivated it could be quite possible that the aircraft may be out of service for a considerably longer amount of time than if the workforce had more of a "can do" attitude. The $50/day saved in wages for the entire station could be a fraction of the lost revenue from just one unfixed airplane that becomes a "hangar Queen". This would not be a deliberate act, but more likely from a lack of intertest. For instance, when the guys are motivated they are more likely to volunteer and take a peek into what is going on, if he came across a similar problem he might share his experience which could lead to a saved trip, even his thought process can be greatly affected by morale, when morale is down, the same mechanic will limit his interest, which may be limited to going through the motions to cover himself more than get the thing back in service as quickly as possible.

The finished product will (or should) be the same, just when its finshed is what changes, and in this business, that makes all the difference. An airline that loses a billion dollars in revenue, plus a tarnished reputation, because they wanted to save what they thought would be a few million on maint labor costs will likely not survive, look at Pan Am and Peoples Express. Penny wise but dollar foolish. As Gordon Bethune said" You can make Pizza so cheap that nobody will want it".

Shortly after we recieved our raise in 2001 the company was able to eliminate all their OT in aircraft maint while maintaing its schedule, its reliability went up with less hours worked. Some mechanics remarked that at the end of the year their total earnings were around the same, only they got to go home every day. It was a fair bargain. It truly was a Win Win situation. The company got higher productivity and we got better lives.

If you do not think that our current path is one to slow financial ruin it is because you are couped up in your own little world in Tulsa. You guys are in a completely different reality than we are. You need to realize that AA makes its money flying people around from one city to another. Unlike Tulsa, in most of these cities AA is just another airline. If they cant deliver reliable service the best paying customers will go elsewhere. Most of us out on the line have worked for other carriers and know that if AA should pull out, that someone else will fill the void. We have already seen some of our best mechanics quit and either go to Jet-Blue, Continental or leave the industry entirely. Most of us are seriously considering leaving also, and with us goes the experience and skill that helped make AA what it is. Skill and experience are just as important as morale to productivity. They compliment each other.

AA once offered mechanics an early out. It was a disaster, so much experience left that it caused operational problems. Now not only are those close to retirement looking to get out as soon as possible but middle aged mechanics with up to 20 years are trying to get out and many of our younger mechanics will never return. We have guys who quit because they were hoping to get laid off but felt that they would not. Needless to say that the attitude of most of the mechanics is not one that projects that they have any long term interest in the company any more.

Such an enviornment causes a constant decline in productivity and could eventually prove more devastating than the combined effects of 9-11 and the recession.

Sure you guys may agree to work for third party rates thinking that you will save your jobs but its on the line where the bottom line is determined. If we fail out here, it aint going to matter much what you guys do there.
 
Bob,

I hate that you had to lose your TWU position and can no longer represent those that ELECTED you.

However, it sure is nice to have you able to post your complete and untethered opinions once again! ;)

Feel free to join us over at air-mechanic.com also.
 
RV4 said:
Bob,

I hate that you had to lose your TWU position and can no longer represent those that ELECTED you.

However, it sure is nice to have you able to post your complete and untethered opinions once again! ;)

Feel free to join us over at air-mechanic.com also.
I will second that!!! :up: :up: :up:
 
Bob Owens said:
j7915 said:
Buck I am glad that you finally admit that you don't have a clue what AMFA has done at NWA. So we are all supposed to be voting for a blackhorse candidate.

I am not saying that mechanics should work for less. Our customers are voting with their dollars and the winners are the low cost, outsource everything carriers. Or are you so blind that you have not noticed that?

You call call yourself a highly skilled technician, then why are you fighting to keep people who are not as skilled from getting jobs they can handle? Will the person in the seat or wheel shop dilute your skills?

You only have three choices: the back shops with OSMs either employ OSMs or they contract out, third choice is a slow financial ruin.
There is a thing called "economies of scale" that dictates why smaller airlines outsourse while the larger airlines do more in house.

SWA, despite the fact that it pays its mechanics $6/more than us plus holiday pay, doubletime etc, has announced plans to bring more overhaul in house. Its growth makes this a good move for the company.

The fact is that work was brought in house at AA and will be at SWA because it is more efficient and less costly once the company has enough work- providing they are well managed. While todays aircraft require less maintenance than they did years ago for an airline the size of AA it should enjoy a cost advantage over carriers that outsource their work to a company that makes a profit doing that work. The profit that the outsouce company makes comes out of the company that sends the work there. In addition to this the company that does the work in house should enjoy better quality control and more control over the amount of service time that is lost. Higher quality should result in operational savings that can often be hard to quantify in the short term. I have to wonder if these factors were ever added in by CIO when he talks about outsourcing being 20% cheaper? You would hope that our representatives would make such arguments in our behalf to the company.

There is more to the "cost" than simply what the carrier pays per manhour. Many of the "costs" continue to add up as the aircraft is in being overhauled such as lease payments, depreciation, loss of use, etc.

The sad part about all of this is that Tulsa failed to realize line maintenance could have been used to their advantage in a way the benefitted both of us. While they threw all those threats at TULSA, Tulsa forgot that the strike threat is just as valid as it was two years earlier when the company matched NWA. We could still shut them down. We knew this, thats why the line rejected the concessions by a wide margin. Only 17 mechanics out of JFK voted yes, and two of our mechanics are International Reps (Bobby Gless and Levere Deane).

Most airlines do their own line maintenance. The only airline that I knew of that outsourced all of their line maint was Peoples Express. Probably because of our typically cynical nature and People's cult-like corporate culture. We simply would not fit into Peoples culture. This same inherent individualist nature that inhibits our unionism.

As far as I know they always contracted out all their overhaul.

However Peoples Express became known as Peoples distress. Part of the problem was that the subcontractor and its mechanics had no link to the company or its vision. This was likely true of both the overhaul provider and line maint provider. It was in their best interest to find a way to keep the airplane in work so they could bill the carrier more and the mechanics could make more money on OT.

When you look at maintenance costs and then break it down, labor is only a component of that cost. While wage cuts can show apparently tangible savings the lower morale that the cut causes is much harder to measure but when all the other costs are added in could end up costing more than the savings many times over.

Lets look at line maintenance. If an airplane breaks down, and the mechanics working it are unmotivated it could be quite possible that the aircraft may be out of service for a considerably longer amount of time than if the workforce had more of a "can do" attitude. The $50/day saved in wages for the entire station could be a fraction of the lost revenue from just one unfixed airplane that becomes a "hangar Queen". This would not be a deliberate act, but more likely from a lack of intertest. For instance, when the guys are motivated they are more likely to volunteer and take a peek into what is going on, if he came across a similar problem he might share his experience which could lead to a saved trip, even his thought process can be greatly affected by morale, when morale is down, the same mechanic will limit his interest, which may be limited to going through the motions to cover himself more than get the thing back in service as quickly as possible.

The finished product will (or should) be the same, just when its finshed is what changes, and in this business, that makes all the difference. An airline that loses a billion dollars in revenue, plus a tarnished reputation, because they wanted to save what they thought would be a few million on maint labor costs will likely not survive, look at Pan Am and Peoples Express. Penny wise but dollar foolish. As Gordon Bethune said" You can make Pizza so cheap that nobody will want it".

Shortly after we recieved our raise in 2001 the company was able to eliminate all their OT in aircraft maint while maintaing its schedule, its reliability went up with less hours worked. Some mechanics remarked that at the end of the year their total earnings were around the same, only they got to go home every day. It was a fair bargain. It truly was a Win Win situation. The company got higher productivity and we got better lives.

If you do not think that our current path is one to slow financial ruin it is because you are couped up in your own little world in Tulsa. You guys are in a completely different reality than we are. You need to realize that AA makes its money flying people around from one city to another. Unlike Tulsa, in most of these cities AA is just another airline. If they cant deliver reliable service the best paying customers will go elsewhere. Most of us out on the line have worked for other carriers and know that if AA should pull out, that someone else will fill the void. We have already seen some of our best mechanics quit and either go to Jet-Blue, Continental or leave the industry entirely. Most of us are seriously considering leaving also, and with us goes the experience and skill that helped make AA what it is. Skill and experience are just as important as morale to productivity. They compliment each other.

AA once offered mechanics an early out. It was a disaster, so much experience left that it caused operational problems. Now not only are those close to retirement looking to get out as soon as possible but middle aged mechanics with up to 20 years are trying to get out and many of our younger mechanics will never return. We have guys who quit because they were hoping to get laid off but felt that they would not. Needless to say that the attitude of most of the mechanics is not one that projects that they have any long term interest in the company any more.

Such an enviornment causes a constant decline in productivity and could eventually prove more devastating than the combined effects of 9-11 and the recession.

Sure you guys may agree to work for third party rates thinking that you will save your jobs but its on the line where the bottom line is determined. If we fail out here, it aint going to matter much what you guys do there.
Bob, I cannot disagree with what you are saying. However this discussion would not even be necessary if you read my posting and not replied essentially to Buck/RV4s.

When I was getting my A&P at Spartan, I did not apply at AA for a cleaners job, I did not even apply after having my tickets until a mechanics job was offered.

I do have a minimum salary, below which it is asta la vista baby.

The confusion starts when individuals feel that anyone who touches an airplane part with a wrench or a screw driver should be considered a skilled mechanic an paid accordingly. If you too believe that then we can quit this discussion right here and now, and I'll relegate you to the "True Believers" category. Where you don't belong from what you have posted so far.

There are I am sure workers at OEMs who make even more than we do, but I'll wager that they are working at an eletrictronic work bench and their employer keeps them busy by contracting with several airlines, i. e. economics of scale.

However I doubt that the Good Year wheel and tire shops pay what AA pays, or the contractors who stick contact paper on toilet walls and doors.

On another issue, how are the officials of the TWU Internationals given their positions? I thought that was done during conventions when the ELECTED delegates from each local voted?

If that is the case, I have commented before, I prefer such an indirect method,, to having some name shoved in front of me of someone from another carrier or even another station, that neither I nor anyone else has ever exchanged words with at my station or in my local. This indirect method is nothing new, it was in the US Constitution until travel and communications allowed senatorial candidates to travel widely in their states. Would you have the time and finances to visit even a small number of locals in your union to get name and face recognition?

That is in my thinking at the root of the Teamster's problems, the candidate has to be a politicians full time to get elected on the Union wide ticket.
 

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