AMFA Organizing Drive to Replace Association

[1AA]

So if I registered to vote on August 1st 1987 and I pass away October 15th 1987 and a national election on November 3rd is under way am I still eligible to vote even though I passed away? The NMB says yes if I signed a card with the intent to vote. I registered with the intent to vote in a national election. We know you can't vote once you pass away and you're purged from the voter rolls. The NMB won't purge dead people if they signed a card. Did I miss something? Am I understanding this correctly? I hope I'm wrong but that's how it was explained to me.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

So if I registered to vote on August 1st 1987 and I pass away October 15th 1987 and a national election on November 3rd is under way am I still eligible to vote even though I passed away? The NMB says yes if I signed a card with the intent to vote. I registered with the intent to vote in a national election. We know you can't vote once you pass away and you're purged from the voter rolls. The NMB won't purge dead people if they signed a card. Did I miss something? Am I understanding this correctly? I hope I'm wrong but that's how it was explained to me.

1AA; No Matter who is on the list at this point as I said we have enough cards. Now if there's more BS with the the NMB that is something else & we will have to deal with that. AMFA legal and AMFA NATL. will address that as it comes. No matter who the NMB sends a Ballot to, even if they are DEAD as you say they will have to VOTE. That means someone would have to use the dead persons Ballot which unless I am mistaken can't happen. It will be a Total run off of which Union gets the most votes. Total Votes Cast. NOT total eligible. Just like so many other elections, Members here at AA just DON'T get involved. The TWU has conditioned them over the yrs to think NOTHING is going to change. Just like when there were Locals the officers were always the same rotating bunch. BUT the corruption just continued. AMFA's constitution prevents that from happening. You and all of the AMFA supporters will have to spread the word to VOTE once the NMB rules. I understand the Frustration many have with this taking soooo Long but just let it play out. Speculating as to what is or will Happen is playing into the ASSOCiations game, casting doubt. You and the other supporters will need to ensure that when ballots are sent out that every has one, and plans on VOTING.

 

[swamt]

I am not overly surprised by the Investigators ruling. I am disappointed by the ruling regarding the Poison Pill on the medical. But it is what it is now. I guess the only other thing to do about it is either accept as it is, or consult my own attorney regarding it. The responses regarding the positions seem pretty well thought out, and correct, whether I like it or not. The date was known by both sides. and you can't use information from after that date to say people don't count. As for SWAMT's thought on those that have passed, I have to disagree. That person was in the role on the date dictated by the NMB. Them passing afterwards is irrelevant to that. Hopefully things happen with better communications. But that is in the future and I can't read the future.

I respect that. I do understand the idea behind them being on the said list as of the said date, but if they are passed, with proof they are deceased, then I don't think their "numbers" should be used towards the "showing of interest" and here's why; And yes, as AIM and others have stated they have plenty of signed cards as far as the additions that were added so far by the NMB, however, with that said, if future card drives if were to be much, much closer like 50% plus one or +5, then counting the deceased folks would take the card drive out of the % showing interest, and the NMB would deny a vote to go forward and yet the folks that took said % showing of interest barely over the required number of cards are still counted even though they are not able to cast a vote. I know they are saying they have enough cards this time around BUT this scenario I talk about can very easily happen in the future.
I agree with AIM, a vote is coming, it's just a matter of WHO will all be on the final "Mechanic And Related" list to receive a ballot for voting. The only other unknown fact at this point is when will the vote take place not so much IF as long as the NMB doesn't get all political when it comes to the final approved cards being approved.
Patients my friend, patients, it's coming...

 

[Thunderdome]

I respect that. I do understand the idea behind them being on the said list as of the said date, but if they are passed, with proof they are deceased, then I don't think their "numbers" should be used towards the "showing of interest" and here's why; And yes, as AIM and others have stated they have plenty of signed cards as far as the additions that were added so far by the NMB, however, with that said, if future card drives if were to be much, much closer like 50% plus one or +5, then counting the deceased folks would take the card drive out of the % showing interest, and the NMB would deny a vote to go forward and yet the folks that took said % showing of interest barely over the required number of cards are still counted even though they are not able to cast a vote. I know they are saying they have enough cards this time around BUT this scenario I talk about can very easily happen in the future.
I agree with AIM, a vote is coming, it's just a matter of WHO will all be on the final "Mechanic And Related" list to receive a ballot for voting. The only other unknown fact at this point is when will the vote take place not so much IF as long as the NMB doesn't get all political when it comes to the final approved cards being approved.
Patients my friend, patients, it's coming...

I can understand that thought process. But if these are the rules that have been used and applied by the NMB Investigators both in the past and future (unless changed) then everyone is playing on the same field. Would you then agree, if that person had sign a card showing interest, would you agree that card must also be destroyed and not counted?
What would you say would be is acceptable proof that they are deceased.
I do agree with AIM that a vote is coming, and I do hope that it comes sooner rather than later. Even if the vote goes the way people do not want it, at least it will be over.
I do hope that the NMB does not get political, but I have a feeling that either way, there will be claims on here that they were being Political. Oh the joys of the internet. I will need to make sure I have popcorn available.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

AMFA UPDATE ON REPRESENTATION DISPUTE FOR THE MECHANICS AND RELATED EMPLOYEES AT AMERICAN AIRLINES

​ Updated On: Jul 12, 2021

July 12, 2021 Dear American Airlines Mechanics and Related Employees: On June 25, 2021, the National Mediation Board’s (NMB) Investigator issued extensive rulings regarding the challenges and objections filed by the TWU/IAM Association and the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA) to the December 4, 2020, proposed Eligibility List of American Airlines containing 13,211 individuals less duplicative entries. The Investigator’s Rulings determined that the number of eligible voters as of the November 6, 2020, cut-off date is 14,403. However, the number of eligible voters for purposes of determining the sufficiency of AMFA’s showing of interest will not be finalized until after the NMB determines the outcome of all appeals. On July 12, 2021, AMFA appealed certain of the NMB Investigator’s Rulings, which if accepted in the aggregate by the NMB would reduce the number of eligible voters for the purpose of determining AMFA’s showing of interest to approximately 13,406. Areas of appeal in AMFA’s submission include not including on the eligibility list certain deceased individuals who died before the November 6, 2020, cutoff date (two died more than a decade ago), former employees who have permanently separated from the Company and have irrevocably resigned, with certain limited exceptions flight simulator engineers, an employee working for another carrier, fleet service employees who are not preponderantly performing Mechanics and Related Employee work, and Crew Chiefs. AMFA has also appealed to the NMB a carrier interference “Poison Pill” issue. Responses to appeals are due in two weeks, by July 26, 2021. AMFA fully expects that following the NMB’s decision on the appeals of the Investigator’s Rulings that the election for the Mechanics and Related Employees at American Airlines will be authorized and then subsequently conducted. As we move forward in this process, “Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light.” -- George Washington. AMFA is always transparent with our union members because we respect employee choice and never forget that our power as an organization comes from you ─ AMFA Powered By Our Members. For further updates and information, please visit AMFA at the American Airlines page of the AMFA National website. AMFA will continue to work diligently on your behalf to get you the vote you were promised and deserve. We appreciate your support. In Solidarity, Gene Painter Assistant National Director

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

This is also the AMFA legal Answer to the NMB.


Read Appeal Document

AMFA's Appeal of Investigator's Ruling - FINAL - 071221 .pdf

tapit.us

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I can understand that thought process. But if these are the rules that have been used and applied by the NMB Investigators both in the past and future (unless changed) then everyone is playing on the same field. Would you then agree, if that person had sign a card showing interest, would you agree that card must also be destroyed and not counted?
What would you say would be is acceptable proof that they are deceased.
I do agree with AIM that a vote is coming, and I do hope that it comes sooner rather than later. Even if the vote goes the way people do not want it, at least it will be over.
I do hope that the NMB does not get political, but I have a feeling that either way, there will be claims on here that they were being Political. Oh the joys of the internet. I will need to make sure I have popcorn available.

TD;

Just So you know the PROOF that these members are deceased was collected by myself and the other organizers throughout the system, Each time one of our M&R employees past we collected the OBIT and a letter put out by AA and or the TWU notifying the members on the floor. Then this information was sent to our DFW collection point and the information was then entered into the DB that has been maintained by an DFW Organizer for the last 20 yrs. That DB has also been compared to up to date active employee seniority lists periodically and specially during the card drives..

So the information your Organizers have given to AMFA NATL.'s Legal team comes from the organizers efforts and AA & the TWU directly. So NO Dispute should be made.

 

[swamt]

I can understand that thought process. But if these are the rules that have been used and applied by the NMB Investigators both in the past and future (unless changed) then everyone is playing on the same field. Would you then agree, if that person had sign a card showing interest, would you agree that card must also be destroyed and not counted?
What would you say would be is acceptable proof that they are deceased.
I do agree with AIM that a vote is coming, and I do hope that it comes sooner rather than later. Even if the vote goes the way people do not want it, at least it will be over.
I do hope that the NMB does not get political, but I have a feeling that either way, there will be claims on here that they were being Political. Oh the joys of the internet. I will need to make sure I have popcorn available.

You are correct, they are the rules. So why did the NMB leave some on the list that were deceased prior to cutoff date? Not sure unless the asso side argued differently. If as AIM has stated and the co. too also put out notification of their deaths prior to dates that should be sufficient IMO, however, in the legal world most will go by the death certificate date.
I do expect the final 14,403 eligible on list will be lowered with AMFA's appeals and proof. Just what that new number will look like is the question of the day.
I too agree, let the vote happen and whatever happens, happens, at least this time around they had their voices heard after the voting is done and not forced down their throats by the asso.

 

[Thunderdome]

TD;

Just So you know the PROOF that these members are deceased was collected by myself and the other organizers throughout the system, Each time one of our M&R employees past we collected the OBIT and a letter put out by AA and or the TWU notifying the members on the floor. Then this information was sent to our DFW collection point and the information was then entered into the DB that has been maintained by an DFW Organizer for the last 20 yrs. That DB has also been compared to up to date active employee seniority lists periodically and specially during the card drives..

So the information your Organizers have given to AMFA NATL.'s Legal team comes from the organizers efforts and AA & the TWU directly. So NO Dispute should be made.

AIM,

Thanks for the insight on what proof was provided to AMFA regarding the Deaths. I would think that as long as both were provided for each member the Investigator would then take them off the list.

Here's my fingers crossed that the vote comes too shortly.

TD

 

[swamt]

7-12 appeals deadline has passed. As we wait for the 2nd deadline to come for responses to the appeals due by 7-26, I am going to assume approx the same timeline after the 26th for some type of response from the NMB on status of a vote going forward @ AA. Just assuming here, that since the NMB investigators gave 2 weeks time between the 12th and 26th, might we expect the same timeline for the final responses from the NMB?
Would be interesting hearing from both sides on the appeals and the responses to the appeals. Another 40+ pages of lawyers languages explaining each sides reasoning, might be a little entertaining to say the least

Copied from AMFA letter:

"The NMB’s decision on the appeals of the Investigator’s Rulings will inform the NMB’s decision on holding the election for the Mechanics and Related Employees at American Airlines. All appeals are due by July 12, 2021, and any responses to appeals are due by July 26, 2021. AMFA will keep you posted on any future developments."

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Then this information was sent to our DFW collection point and the information was then entered into the DB that has been maintained by an DFW Organizer for the last 20 yrs.

I had high hopes for AMFA but after seeing no success for 2 decades you can hardly blame people for losing faith in them.

 

[1AA]

I had high hopes for AMFA but after seeing no success for 2 decades you can hardly blame people for losing faith in them.

We are not losing faith in AMFA. We are losing faith in the NMB to do the right thing. Also certain guys are losing faith because they won't fight or stay informed. They listen to idiots on the floor who know nothing.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

We are not losing faith in AMFA. We are losing faith in the NMB to do the right thing. Also certain guys are losing faith because they won't fight or stay informed. They listen to idiots on the floor who know nothing.

I don't think your outlook is representative of the collective. At least not from what I am seeing on these posts.

I mean you know..... it has been 20 years.

According to studies the average person works 43.27 years.

If a person born in 1954 hired in 1972 (18 years old) and worked until he could draw full retirement (year 2020 at 66 years old) he will have worked 48 years. That is almost your best case scenario.

48 years and that is hiring in the day you are eligible (18) and working until full retirement age (66). In the scenario we have with AMFA that mechanic would have been waiting 19 years (39.6 percent of his career rounded up ) only to close out his career with no success. The longer it takes to get AMFA in the worse that average gets.

I think your passion is overriding your objectivity.

 

[1AA]

I don't think your outlook is representative of the collective. At least not from what I am seeing on these posts.

I mean you know..... it has been 20 years.

According to studies the average person works 43.27 years.

If a person born in 1954 hired in 1972 (18 years old) and worked until he could draw full retirement (year 2020 at 66 years old) he will have worked 48 years. That is almost your best case scenario.

48 years and that is hiring in the day you are eligible (18) and working until full retirement age (66). In the scenario we have with AMFA that mechanic would have been waiting 19 years (39.6 percent of his career rounded up ) only to close out his career with no success. The longer it takes to get AMFA in the worse that average gets.

I think your passion is overriding your objectivity.

You left out all the new guys coming into the industry. It's a continuous revolving door. I just don't see your point in this. AMFA or any other union?
Many retired between 1988 and now that signed AMFA cards. They put their time in this career and left. This journey is coming to a close hopefully by the end of the month. Let's see if the NMB does the right thing.

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

I had high hopes for AMFA but after seeing no success for 2 decades you can hardly blame people for losing faith in them.

If I am mistaken about your career I apologize up front, Your NOT an AMT or even with AA, Nor were you part of the M&R class and craft.

My comment and question to you.

What HIGH hopes did you have for AMFA?

Until The membership signs enough cards AMFA had NOTHING to do with ALL the drives that have been attempted here at AA. It was all accomplished by a group of people who have had enough of the TWU and Now the ASSOCiation. Failure to collect enough cards was due to the misinformation put out by the TWU, or the failure to bring enough information to the M&R work group by the Organizers to generate interest. The resistance to change due to the insecurity of the membership also played a part in that. It all boils down to the membership NOT AMFA.

The current card drive is in the hands of the NMB. We the Organizers turned in enough cards to give the membership a Chance to VOTE. With that said that means that enough of the M&R membership signed a card saying that they as well have had enough. NOW if the NMB gives us a VOTE and AMFA does Not win, then that will be the choice of the M&R class and craft workgroup.

AMFA National is NOT the bargaining unit for AA thus is NOT allowed on AA property, Nor are they allowed to post any information on BB on AA's property.
No matter what accomplishments or Failures that have happened during AMFA's past represented of carriers they have Not had any part of what has Happened HERE.

The Organizers will attempt to schedule meeting places for the M&R class & craft members to GO ask any questions to the National Officers once a determination is made by the NMB to allow a Vote. Any member will then be able to ask any question, voice his/her opinion.
How long is the NMB going to drag this on who knows. AMFA nor the Organizers can do anything to speed this process along.

So putting your oar in the pond to stir up the waters here to me just says your board and have nothing better to do.