Amfa Allows Outsourcing To Continue

[Buck]

Come on Informer. You guys always start this stuff. Why??????????? You can't stay on the issues so you start on the personal attacks. It happens every time.

Twuer:

So as not to include you as an individual in a catch all industrial union whose main purpose is to collect dues, the TWU STARTED this stuff twenty years ago.
If the TWU had not given concessions for jobs, the membership would not be looking for different representation.

 

[Checking it Out]

Please explain why the 737 work in Seatle was Outsourced?

Please explain why Amfa did nothing to stop the 5 Year contract at AAR on the MD 80?

Who finishes the negotiations at Alaska Now? Clue it is not Amfa!

Why is Horizon still without a Contract? Feeder for Alaska.

Oh by the way, I hear their is preperations to start a drive at Alaska.

 

[twuer]

Come on Informer. You guys always start this stuff. Why??????????? You can't stay on the issues so you start on the personal attacks. It happens every time.

Twuer:

So as not to include you as an individual in a catch all industrial union whose main purpose is to collect dues, the TWU STARTED this stuff twenty years ago.
If the TWU had not given concessions for jobs, the membership would not be looking for different representation.

Then tell me Buck, what will AMFA do for the mechanics at AA??? What will AMFA do for mechanics with little seniority?? What will AMFA do for the base mechanics? AMFA agrees to outsourcing heavy maintenance. Tell the mechanic who's job will be on the line from outsourcing what AMFA will do for them. I don't want to hear about accountability or the AMFA constitution. I don't want to hear about what a great guy Delle is. I just asked this question earlier and didn't get a response. Can you answer me? And don't come back with some stats from the TWU either. Just answer the question (if you can).

 

[Buck]

This is going to sound strange to you, but it is the membership that is going to have to make the changes. These changes will come from a membership that has democracy. That may be foreign to you or to the TWU, but it is possible to run a union with the membership in charge.

As for each of those questions, I am not a member of AMFA, you will have to ask your questions of AMFA on Saturday January 17th, 2004. 11AM-2PM.

 

[Checking it Out]

Is'nt it true at Alaska under the new agreement amfa has negotiated a B scale on the retirement of new hires?

 

[twuer]

This is going to sound strange to you, but it is the membership that is going to have to make the changes. These changes will come from a membership that has democracy. That may be foreign to you or to the TWU, but it is possible to run a union with the membership in charge.

Since I am so foreign to the concept (as you say) please enlighten me as to how AMFA does this. You AMFA boys have already told me that the members can vote out the leaders and vote on contracts. What else????????????????????? What else will the memebers be able to do? Will the members have a voice to be able to fight in Washington?? Will the members be able to close the division beteween the mechanics?? Will the members be able to stop outsourcing heavy maintenance?? Will the members be able to ensure that jobs are saved and not lost?? You claim that AMFA will save all but do you really believe that, and more importantly, can you prove it?? You talk the talk now walk the walk brother! Lives are at stake!

 

[Bob Owens]

Since I am so foreign to the concept (as you say) please enlighten me as to how AMFA does this. You AMFA boys have already told me that the members can vote out the leaders and vote on contracts. What else????????????????????? What else will the memebers be able to do? Will the members have a voice to be able to fight in Washington?? Will the members be able to close the division beteween the mechanics?? Will the members be able to stop outsourcing heavy maintenance?? Will the members be able to ensure that jobs are saved and not lost?? You claim that AMFA will save all but do you really believe that, and more importantly, can you prove it?? You talk the talk now walk the walk brother! Lives are at stake!

Did the TWU do ANY of that?

TWUer there is a concept that along with Democracy, must also be foreign to you. That concept is Unionism. Unionism is an ideology that professes that when workers collectively act as one that they can resist the demands of those who would deprive them of what is fair. Unionism preaches that if those who would defraud us will not be reasonable that we would deprive them of our labor if neccesary. Unions rely on the fact that despite all their power and money that employers still need labor.

Now lets look to see if what you and the other TWU supporters spout out here can be reconciled with those ideals.

You say that we had to give up more than all the other carriers because the company was threatening to take away even more if we did not submit.

Sorry but companys have always used such threats. Unionists have always responded that if you try to take away what is ours that we would deprive you of our labor and shut you down. Its a position that takes guts, but the alternative is to fall into a perpetual downward cycle, similat to what we have experienced with the TWU for over 20 years.

You say that you saved jobs.

Thats like saying that WalMart is good for workers because they create jobs. Thats like saying that we should lower the minimum wage to create more jobs. The concept of lowering wages to create or save jobs has always been a concept that unionists dispute. This concept comes directly from those that oppose unionism.

The fact is that the TWU agreement included job cutting provisions. They rolled back the system protection date to 1998 and eliminated vacation time. There is no way that these could be considered moves to save jobs because they are in fact moves that facilitate the elimination of jobs.

You say that the TWU will get these things back. But the fact is that most of the Industry Leading Concessions that were lost over the last twenty years were never recovered. It is unlikely that they ever will either because in order to do so the TWU has to argue that they screwed up and they never should have been lost in the first place. The TWU to this day feels that their concessionary pattern of bargaining is a good idea because it has increased membership for the TWU. And increased membership is of a higher priority for this union than increased standards of living. They justify it by saying that concessions creates or saves jobs. A position that unionism has opposed for over 100 years. The TWU uses the same arguements that businesses use because they have become a business themselves.

 

[twuer]

Did the TWU do ANY of that?

TWUer there is a concept that along with Democracy, must also be foreign to you. That concept is Unionism. Unionism is an ideology that professes that when workers collectively act as one that they can resist the demands of those who would deprive them of what is fair. Unionism preaches that if those who would defraud us will not be reasonable that we would deprive them of our labor if neccesary. Unions rely on the fact that despite all their power and money that employers still need labor.

Now lets look to see if what you and the other TWU supporters spout out here can be reconciled with those ideals.

You say that we had to give up more than all the other carriers because the company was threatening to take away even more if we did not submit.

Sorry but companys have always used such threats. Unionists have always responded that if you try to take away what is ours that we would deprive you of our labor and shut you down. Its a position that takes guts, but the alternative is to fall into a perpetual downward cycle, similat to what we have experienced with the TWU for over 20 years.

You say that you saved jobs.

Thats like saying that WalMart is good for workers because they create jobs. Thats like saying that we should lower the minimum wage to create more jobs. The concept of lowering wages to create or save jobs has always been a concept that unionists dispute. This concept comes directly from those that oppose unionism.

The fact is that the TWU agreement included job cutting provisions. They rolled back the system protection date to 1998 and eliminated vacation time. There is no way that these could be considered moves to save jobs because they are in fact moves that facilitate the elimination of jobs.

You say that the TWU will get these things back. But the fact is that most of the Industry Leading Concessions that were lost over the last twenty years were never recovered. It is unlikely that they ever will either because in order to do so the TWU has to argue that they screwed up and they never should have been lost in the first place. The TWU to this day feels that their concessionary pattern of bargaining is a good idea because it has increased membership for the TWU. And increased membership is of a higher priority for this union than increased standards of living. They justify it by saying that concessions creates or saves jobs. A position that unionism has opposed for over 100 years. The TWU uses the same arguements that businesses use because they have become a business themselves.

But my questions weren't answered. By Buck or you. Or did you not read them correctly? What will the members of AMFA get accomplished?? What will the memebers do if AMFA gets in at AA??? You can gripe and complain all you want about the TWU but the fact remains that you have yet to prove your case that AMFA will be the better union. YOU CAN"T!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bob Owens]

But my questions weren't answered. By Buck or you. Or did you not read them correctly? What will the members of AMFA get accomplished?? What will the memebers do if AMFA gets in at AA??? You can gripe and complain all you want about the TWU but the fact remains that you have yet to prove your case that AMFA will be the better union. YOU CAN"T!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/quote]
AMFA offers us the opportunity to join together with other mechanics. AMFA represents more mechanics than any other union. AMFA is a mechanics union.

Do you dispute the theory that having a unified workforce throughout the industry, as in the case of the pilots, carpenters, longshoremen, auto workers, truck drivers, etc is better than a divided structure where the relationship between a union and the company is stronger than between the union and its members?

Will the TWU ever offer us the opportunity to join together with workers throughout the industry to form an industrywide union?

Isnt the structure of unionism in the airline industry today similar to the structure of unionism in the NYC transit industry prior to the TWU? Isnt it true that under this structure, despite increased productivity and steady overall expansion that workers in this industry have seen living standards decline instead of improve over the last twenty years?

Isnt it true that the TWU has led the industry in concessions since 1983 where they brought in B-scale and transferred work away from A&Ps?

Do you deny that the TWU has benifited at the members expense?

Do you deny that the members at AA have no say in who controls their contract with the TWU?

If you do, explain to us how we determine who is in charge?

The fact is that nearly all airline pilots belong to unions that pilots control. They have done very well for themselves. Compare this to mechanics who have traditionally belonged to catch all business unions like the TWU.

AMFA offers us the opportunity to join a union where mechanics interests are the priority. That will never be the case with the TWU.

AMFA members will pick their leaders. In the TWU we can only pick Local leaders who have very limited powers. The contract belongs to the International.

AMFA members can remove officers. TWU members can only remove local officers at regular election cycles. The International however can remove any local officer at will.

AMFA members will be able to observe negotiations. In the TWU even the negotiating committee doesnt get to observe most of the negotiations between the company and the International.


Can we prove that AMFA will be a better union? We can prove that with AMFA members will have more say in their union. We can prove that AMFA members make much more than TWU members. We can prove that AMFA has a more Democratic Constitution. We can prove that most mechanics when given the choice, choose to be in a mechanics union.

Better is an interpretive word. If more control, more accountability, more democracy, higher wages and more benifits are considered "better" then AMFA has already proven that they are a better union than the TWU.

 

[Buck]

Not much else to say Mr. Owens covered it.

A line station mechanic agreeing with a base mechanic, what a concept.
And both looking to better our profession.

This something that is so foreign to Local 514 in TUL.

Again if you want direct answers to your AMFA questions attend the debate where members of AMFA will be. January 17, 2004

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

The "so called" B-scale retirement plan at ALASKA is a 401k plan that the company matches dollar for dollar. It was offered to other mechanics as a one time option in place of their traditional retirement plan. This 401k is the same plan that they offer to their management at ALASKA. In this day and age, you could argue all day long which is better 401K or a TRADITIONAL retirement plan. A least with the 401k you have some control over where the money is being invested. I wish our 401k would match dollar for dollar.

The 737 work which CIO refers to was moved to OAKLAND in AUG.2001, not outsourced. As far as the AAR contract, maybe they don't have enough space at the ALASKA overhaul base to cover their whole fleet at this time. Considering the state of the airline industry at this time, I doubt ALASKA wants to spend money expanding an overhaul base. Like TWU informer has posted, head count,wages,and benefits at ALASKA have gone up under AMFA, not down as when the IAM was in power. As far as a card drive at ALASKA, In your dreams CIO.

The mechanics contract is up for renewal at ALASKA this year. I doubt the mechanics would want to take a paycut by going back to the IAM or even worse the TWU.

 

[scorpion]

AA currently has 19.9% farmout rate. This has been consistant for the last 20 years or more and in fact has been reduced.

Currently AA is the only Airline that has set the stage for the employees to have an oppurtunity to be recalled.

The 3 Unions at AA have done an excellant job in preserving this oppurtunity for its members.

This is an interesting statement 19.9 % farmout rate. Is this the rate AA provides per our scope clause? AA is supposed to provide us with a report this month on the percentage of work contracted out as a percentage of total aircraft maintenance expense. This is going to be real interesting since we reduced our part of the total maintenance expense by 29% through concessions there should be a major jump in the outsourcing percentage. The only problem is AA provides the union with the report. Has anyone ever seen a list of what expenses are considered valid or do the expenses change to keep the numbers consistent. I think we all know the answer to this.

 

[Checking it Out]

Princess judy you sound like the typical amfa wantabe, Its okay to farmout work to the extent that it has a prolong effect.

Only problem aren't you a Stock Clerk? and have a second job as a massage therapist?

The point is that amfa has set a standard to eliminate the Heavy Maintenance to third party vendors. Everything they do is geared that direction. For Years the Unions fought to keep the work-in-house to preserve the structure. In one swipe of the pin amfa allowed this to change forever and everything they do is geared to outsource of members.

Look at the structure, Management-Management written all over Amfa. Even the leader in Tulsa worked as a manager before being hired at AA.

Do you also understand companies have been started based on what Amfa has done. In the near future line Maintenance will cease as we know it. I know of at least 2 companies thar are looking into taking over the overnight Maintenance at the smaller Airports.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Wrong again CIO, the outsourcing standard was set by the Teamsters and the IAM. I saw this first hand at Braniff 2/Dalfort. It was one of the reasons Southwest went AMFA. CIO ,how do we know when your lying? Your mouth is moving. CIO, our medical plan doesn't cover cetain plastic surgeries. Your lying so much your nose is gonna be dragging on the floor. How are you gonna afford surgery to fix your nose?

 

[j7915]

Did the TWU do ANY of that?

TWUer there is a concept that along with Democracy, must also be foreign to you. That concept is Unionism. Unionism is an ideology that professes that when workers collectively act as one that they can resist the demands of those who would deprive them of what is fair. Unionism preaches that if those who would defraud us will not be reasonable that we would deprive them of our labor if neccesary. Unions rely on the fact that despite all their power and money that employers still need labor.

Now lets look to see if what you and the other TWU supporters spout out here can be reconciled with those ideals.

You say that we had to give up more than all the other carriers because the company was threatening to take away even more if we did not submit.

Sorry but companys have always used such threats. Unionists have always responded that if you try to take away what is ours that we would deprive you of our labor and shut you down. Its a position that takes guts, but the alternative is to fall into a perpetual downward cycle, similat to what we have experienced with the TWU for over 20 years.

You say that you saved jobs.

Thats like saying that WalMart is good for workers because they create jobs. Thats like saying that we should lower the minimum wage to create more jobs. The concept of lowering wages to create or save jobs has always been a concept that unionists dispute. This concept comes directly from those that oppose unionism.

The fact is that the TWU agreement included job cutting provisions. They rolled back the system protection date to 1998 and eliminated vacation time. There is no way that these could be considered moves to save jobs because they are in fact moves that facilitate the elimination of jobs.

You say that the TWU will get these things back. But the fact is that most of the Industry Leading Concessions that were lost over the last twenty years were never recovered. It is unlikely that they ever will either because in order to do so the TWU has to argue that they screwed up and they never should have been lost in the first place. The TWU to this day feels that their concessionary pattern of bargaining is a good idea because it has increased membership for the TWU. And increased membership is of a higher priority for this union than increased standards of living. They justify it by saying that concessions creates or saves jobs. A position that unionism has opposed for over 100 years. The TWU uses the same arguements that businesses use because they have become a business themselves.

Bob, why don't you guys start being pro-amt, and make suggestions? As an ex-TWU union officer are you saying that you wasted the member's time and money and accomplished ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Why don't you try to figure out where we would be without the union?