After looking at this situation and the fact that we must wait until the NMB has made a decision. I think we should start a concerted heavy push for the AGW. Bob has pushed this before but, now it is plain to see why this is so important.
Amfa/agw
- Thread starter Rusty
- Start date
Checking it Out
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Rusty, Is this an attempt to divert attention? The AGW has to many things wrong with their constitution! And is going down the tubes at USAir.
I believe now that you have so much free time why not volunteer for some committees and help the membership?
I believe now that you have so much free time why not volunteer for some committees and help the membership?
Questions and Answers For
US AIRWAYS Fleet Service Workers
Home Page
1. Where will the Allied Ground Workers get the money to represent the workers?
The Allied Ground Workers will be dues-supportive. As soon as you vote in the AGW, the Allied Ground Workers, like the IAM has, will start receiving dues money through the dues-checkoff article in your contract. The only difference will be in how that money is spent.
For instance, the $95,000 salary for your union officers is way out of touch. AGW Officers make in the $50's, with the exception of the President whose salary would be $61,000. The money saved is in the hundreds of thousands and is better used elsewhere. The AGW also cuts out the use of your funds for; political contributions; glamorous yearly conventions; AFLCIO dues; and a host of other deadend paths.
2. What is the difference between the IAM Regime and the Allied Ground Workers
We believe the biggest difference is the system of governance. Democracy vs. Autocracy. The IAM Regime is a union that survived because of the culture of the early to mid 1900's. During that part of the last century, its membership grew because workers were content with a paternal "we know what's best for you" union. A union that doesn't have to communicate with you because it makes several of YOUR choices.
However, the days of members demanding communication, democracy, choices, freedoms, etc., are now here. Unfortunately, the IAM Regime and other "Old Guard" unions are stuck with "Jurassiclike" constitutions that are centuries old and too difficult to change in such a way to truly incorporate the culture shift of todays workforce.
Being a member of the AFLCIO, the IAM is fast becoming known moreso for being a Political beast as opposed to serving its members.
On the other hand, the AGW is membership controlled and has a modern constitution to better serve members in this century. The AGW constitution guarantees communication and guarantees the democratic rights of its members. It's in the Constitution and we encourage you to read it!
3. How was the Allied Ground Workers able to secure the law services of Seham, Seham, Meltz, and Petersen [SSMP]?
The process was a long one. The AGW Interim Officers reviewed different law firms and individual attorneys in the search for legal counsel. However, after meeting with SSMP, we were convinced that SSMP would be a tremendous benefit to the AGW since SSMP is widely recognized as an expert law firm within the scope of the Railway Labor Act. SSMP not only represents thousands of airline workers from different crafts, but they share many of the democratic values of the AGW.
4. How Will the AGW Have Enough Money Without the IAM Regime Behind Us?
We will have more money! The Allied Ground Workers will take the majority of YOUR money and put it right back at your Local where it belongs, instead of sending it a long way from home to feed a huge Political Beast complete with Lear Jet and Golf Course. We won't even have to pay the IAM Regime's "cooks" with YOUR money! Further, we won't be spending YOUR money on Political Contributions, AFLCIO dues, or glamorous conventions!
www.the-agw.org
US AIRWAYS Fleet Service Workers
Home Page
1. Where will the Allied Ground Workers get the money to represent the workers?
The Allied Ground Workers will be dues-supportive. As soon as you vote in the AGW, the Allied Ground Workers, like the IAM has, will start receiving dues money through the dues-checkoff article in your contract. The only difference will be in how that money is spent.
For instance, the $95,000 salary for your union officers is way out of touch. AGW Officers make in the $50's, with the exception of the President whose salary would be $61,000. The money saved is in the hundreds of thousands and is better used elsewhere. The AGW also cuts out the use of your funds for; political contributions; glamorous yearly conventions; AFLCIO dues; and a host of other deadend paths.
2. What is the difference between the IAM Regime and the Allied Ground Workers
We believe the biggest difference is the system of governance. Democracy vs. Autocracy. The IAM Regime is a union that survived because of the culture of the early to mid 1900's. During that part of the last century, its membership grew because workers were content with a paternal "we know what's best for you" union. A union that doesn't have to communicate with you because it makes several of YOUR choices.
However, the days of members demanding communication, democracy, choices, freedoms, etc., are now here. Unfortunately, the IAM Regime and other "Old Guard" unions are stuck with "Jurassiclike" constitutions that are centuries old and too difficult to change in such a way to truly incorporate the culture shift of todays workforce.
Being a member of the AFLCIO, the IAM is fast becoming known moreso for being a Political beast as opposed to serving its members.
On the other hand, the AGW is membership controlled and has a modern constitution to better serve members in this century. The AGW constitution guarantees communication and guarantees the democratic rights of its members. It's in the Constitution and we encourage you to read it!
3. How was the Allied Ground Workers able to secure the law services of Seham, Seham, Meltz, and Petersen [SSMP]?
The process was a long one. The AGW Interim Officers reviewed different law firms and individual attorneys in the search for legal counsel. However, after meeting with SSMP, we were convinced that SSMP would be a tremendous benefit to the AGW since SSMP is widely recognized as an expert law firm within the scope of the Railway Labor Act. SSMP not only represents thousands of airline workers from different crafts, but they share many of the democratic values of the AGW.
4. How Will the AGW Have Enough Money Without the IAM Regime Behind Us?
We will have more money! The Allied Ground Workers will take the majority of YOUR money and put it right back at your Local where it belongs, instead of sending it a long way from home to feed a huge Political Beast complete with Lear Jet and Golf Course. We won't even have to pay the IAM Regime's "cooks" with YOUR money! Further, we won't be spending YOUR money on Political Contributions, AFLCIO dues, or glamorous conventions!
www.the-agw.org
5-27
Bad Negotiation, Good Negotiation
Bad Negotiations: Good ole boy system, ie., when a union:
1. decides when to negotiate without membership approval to do so.
2. handpicks which loyalist is on the negotiations committee
3. decides what is to be negotiated
4. signs confidential agreements that keeps information from workers
5. signs letters of agreement without membership consent.
Good Negotiations:
1. When all the Company proposals are posted on the union's web site so members can stay informed.
2. When all Union's proposals are posted on the union's website so members can stay informed.
3. When the Union can't even enter negotiations unless the membership approves such negotiations.
4. When the negotiations committee is elected and not appointed.
5. When membership approves which proposals to negotiate.
6. When the Union is prohibited from signing secret confidential agreements
7. When the Union is prohibited from signing letters of agreement without a ratification.
The AGW constitution provides for 'good negotiations'. The AGW believes that informed members build solidarity. As opposed to 'bad negotiations' which always bring a lack of solidarity, confusion, and beaten down members.
United IAM Members Wonder Why Concession Stand is Still Open At United
IAM district Lodge 141 posted a bulletin saying that 'the concession stand is closed' over at US AIRWAYS. Now many workers at United are wondering why the concession stand has been allowed to stay open at United. When the question was posed to Interim Director Tim Nelson, he said, "I don't know, ask the IAM."
Nelson went on to say, "The United employees have given their fair share and there is no reason to engage in further concessionary talks. The problem at United is management, not labor."
Bad Negotiation, Good Negotiation
Bad Negotiations: Good ole boy system, ie., when a union:
1. decides when to negotiate without membership approval to do so.
2. handpicks which loyalist is on the negotiations committee
3. decides what is to be negotiated
4. signs confidential agreements that keeps information from workers
5. signs letters of agreement without membership consent.
Good Negotiations:
1. When all the Company proposals are posted on the union's web site so members can stay informed.
2. When all Union's proposals are posted on the union's website so members can stay informed.
3. When the Union can't even enter negotiations unless the membership approves such negotiations.
4. When the negotiations committee is elected and not appointed.
5. When membership approves which proposals to negotiate.
6. When the Union is prohibited from signing secret confidential agreements
7. When the Union is prohibited from signing letters of agreement without a ratification.
The AGW constitution provides for 'good negotiations'. The AGW believes that informed members build solidarity. As opposed to 'bad negotiations' which always bring a lack of solidarity, confusion, and beaten down members.
United IAM Members Wonder Why Concession Stand is Still Open At United
IAM district Lodge 141 posted a bulletin saying that 'the concession stand is closed' over at US AIRWAYS. Now many workers at United are wondering why the concession stand has been allowed to stay open at United. When the question was posed to Interim Director Tim Nelson, he said, "I don't know, ask the IAM."
Nelson went on to say, "The United employees have given their fair share and there is no reason to engage in further concessionary talks. The problem at United is management, not labor."
The best way to help the membership is to get rid of the TWU. That goes for all of us, not just M&R.Checking it Out said:
The fact is that the members have no rights in the TWU. They dont have the right to vote on contracts-as the TWU stated in court during the 562 lawsuit.
They dont have the right to choose their own leaders-as shown at the 1997 Convention.
They dont have the right to interpret the Constitution because they are not party to it, as stated by the judge in the recent Local 501 lawsuit.
They dont even have the right to choose their own Local leaders, as demonstrated by what happened at Local 562, AFW and MCI. Sure you can pick local leaders but according to the International their allegience is not to the members that elected them but to the International, a group of people who were not elected by the members.
Proof of this is in the "Findings of the IEC Subcommittee". The document submitted that found me guilty of violating my oath of office. Here is what they wrote;
"Brother Owens further admitted in hearing testimony that his primary duty was "not to the TWU International" but "primarily to the guys that elected me and put me in office, and my duty is to them and what's written in the TWU Constitution."
On cross examination, he stated that,
"if the oath conflicts-if there's a conflict between the International and the members, I feel, as their representative, I have to fight for the members side."
These admissions constitute a repudiation of his oath of office, which requires allegiance to the International and the Local Union.
So what the TWU International is saying here is that Local leaders take an oath of allegiance to the International, none of whom are elected by the members, and if there is a conflict between what is good for the International and what the membership wants that Local leaders are obliged to forsake their members in favor of the International and failure to do so warrants that the International remove the officer. In other words you really do not have the right to choose a representative, an advocate who will fight for you, you merely have the right to choose one of your peers to do the Internationals bidding.
Since this is in fact the position that the IEC wrote, and the entire IEC concurred with, that my admission that the members come before the International constitutes repudiation of the oath of office then how can any member or any local hope to change the TWU? If all the Local leaders are obliged to put aside their members interests in favor of what the International dictates how can you possibly claim that this union is for the members?
Nightwatch
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MCI chose their own leadership, you know otherwise? Is it that your local is so small that you feel the need to poke your nose in other local's business? You might someday realize your crying over your justful ousting was a good thing for all involved. You did not want the TWU, and neither did they want you, so what's the problem? Go buy a hotdog and a "Free dan" T-Shirt and let your worries free.
Wasnt the President of MCI removed despite a petition from the majority of the membership supporting him?Nightwatch said:
No comment on the Internationals claim that Local officers owe their alligience to the International instead of the members? Is that why you resort to personal attacks from behind your alias?
Nightwatch
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The president was removed due to his own actions and those same actions being against the TWU protocol. He was removed by the E-Board. A petition is useless when a man is guilty, you should know this first hand.Bob Owens said:
Is that why you resort to personal attacks from behind your alias?
I did not post a personal attack ref you, I posted the truth. I see why you think of it as an attack, the truth hurts.
No comment on the Internationals claim that Local officers owe their alligience to the International instead of the members?Nightwatch said:
No comment on the FACT that the International claimed in court that members do not have the right to vote on contracts?
No comment on the fact that in court it was also said that Locals were NOT party to the contract-the contract belongs to the International, not the Locals or their members?
No comment on the FACT that this contract is under the control of International officers who are not elected by the membership?
Like I said, you went for a personal attack. You did not address the issues, you made comments directed at me instead to the issues I brought forward. This is a typical tactic for someone who is guilty of wrong doing. Divert the conversation and criticize the messenger. If you want to tell the "truth" as you see it then start a thread on that topic. Then produce something to back up your claims.
Poking my nose in other locals business? Arent you doing the same? If you dont want us commenting on other Locals then let each Local negotiate their own contract, then it truly will be none of our business, but as long as we are under the same contract then it is our business what goes on at other locals just as it is yours.
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
nw, "A petition is useless when a man is guilty, you should know this first hand." This is a personal attack against Bob. Don't claim otherwise, "I did not post a personal attack ref you, I posted the truth. I see why you think of it as an attack, the truth hurts."
The TRUTH is that Bob Owens did what he was elected to do. Fight for and inform HIS membership. The very same people who elected him. It was the international that removed him. THAT is the truth. Yes the truth hurts. But it hurts those who believe in lies such as yourself.
Bob fought to protect OUR profession. Just like Chuck Schalk did. Both of these men still fight FOR OUR profession. If you believe that if a person is elected by HIS/HER stations membership and therefore HIS/HER allegiance belongs to those who are not even elected that person should abandon thier member? You seem to miss the point of having a union totally. The international should be the ones backing the membership.
Continue to live your live behind an alias fearing the truth and democracy and accountability. That is the twu way.
The TRUTH is that Bob Owens did what he was elected to do. Fight for and inform HIS membership. The very same people who elected him. It was the international that removed him. THAT is the truth. Yes the truth hurts. But it hurts those who believe in lies such as yourself.
Bob fought to protect OUR profession. Just like Chuck Schalk did. Both of these men still fight FOR OUR profession. If you believe that if a person is elected by HIS/HER stations membership and therefore HIS/HER allegiance belongs to those who are not even elected that person should abandon thier member? You seem to miss the point of having a union totally. The international should be the ones backing the membership.
Continue to live your live behind an alias fearing the truth and democracy and accountability. That is the twu way.
This issue comes up from time to time,why Bob and Chuck were removed. But, I have never heard a response as to what the amfa supporter thinks Delle would do if this situation were at amfa. Do you honestly believe that Delle would allow one of his amfa officers (who took the oath of office to amfa no less) to trash him over and over and over and trash his union and push for the TWU????????? HELL NO!!!!! Your argument is worthless on this one. Dual unionism is dual unionism regardless of who the person is supported by. The same with behavior unbecoming an officer. You guys want to break the rules but cry when the punishment is given.
Speaking of punishment. . .heard anything about who will be "punished" for obtaining and using that confidential list???? I hear the investigation is heating up!!! I'm sure when the punishment comes down for that one you will again be whining about it and crying foul as well!!! Is that all you guys can do????
Speaking of punishment. . .heard anything about who will be "punished" for obtaining and using that confidential list???? I hear the investigation is heating up!!! I'm sure when the punishment comes down for that one you will again be whining about it and crying foul as well!!! Is that all you guys can do????
It is funny that you bring up personal attacks Bob, I can understand you wanting to make your point without someone launching pointless personal attacks against you that makes complete sense to me, have you read any of Dave Stewarts post's lately the KING of personal attacks, at least Dave is an egual oppertunity attacker he will attack the guys on his side ( if they have an opinion of their own ) and the guys on the other side, forget about wether a guy spent ALOT of their own money and time on the AMFA drive or that he got a hell of ALOT of people to fill out cards if he has an opinion that is different than Dave's you should crucify his ass, that is Dave's motto, and of course there is the Dave Stewart let's destroy the local plan by voting for the worst officers out there, like Randy Mcdonald and all female stock clerks in order to totally screw over the A&P Mechanics so they will possibly sign a card in the next drive, that is a real smart move :unsure: , of course that could very easily backfire in more ways than one, like the #1 A&P Mechanics will not be represented while these officers are in power. #2 A&P Mechanics just might blame AMFA if they get screwed while these sabotage voted in canidates are in power and therefor not sign a card. #3 If AMFA were to win an Election the TWU supporters probably would do the exact same thing to AMFA and sabotage vote all bad officers into power.Bob Owens said:
That really sounds like a bone head plan to me where everyone loses not just TWU supporters, I have heard that the Chairman Don does not advocate this BONE HEAD plan.
I do know one thing if Dave Stewart is elected as Vice President of the AMFA drive this next weekend you can forget about me signing another card as an AMFA Associate member, I will be voting against him and that is all I can do, all I can say is putting Dave in that position is a REALLY BAD IDEA, Officers are representative's of the organization's, I urge all to keep that in mind when voting for AMFA Officers or TWU officers and vote for the best people to fill the jobs, we would expect if from them and they should expect it from us.
Sorry to talk about personal attacks Bob it is usually Dave that starts this stuff but you did bring up the subject so I thought I would add to it.
My new motto is peace and love for both sides and everyone, I am quite sure Dave will hate me for that too but hey some people love to hate everybody. <_<
Maybe we can start here and have our opinions without getting personally attacked it is NEVER to late to be adults 😉
Ken MacTiernan
Veteran
twuer, if the situation was at AMFA I believe the members would remove the person. NOT National. But then why would someone who is elected want to remove another elected official? I bet President Bush would like nothing better than to have John Kerry removed from office. But in democracy that is not how things work. That is why the twu is NOT democratic.twuer said:
Bob Owens repeatedly spoke with the twu international about problems in our craft and was removed from office. It was not "trash" that Bob brought forward. It was the truth in the twu's short comings. Bob took the oath to protect the membership. He did that. WHY would sonny and little not listen to Bob?
Why is there even an AGW? Because Rampers want democracy too. Why are there no twu.iam.ibt drives at the airlines AMFA represents? Because the members there want democracy. At the last Tulsa debate that the twu refused to attend, although they sent a coffin to stand in for them, Dell told the audience that an ant-AMFA supporter tried to state that AMFA was bad because two AMFA presidents were recalled from office. And how did that make Dell feel. (I'm not sure if both presidents in question were from the same airline or not.) Dell replied that it made him feel good that AMFA is working because democracy worked. These two presidents were RECALLED by their respective membership and the new presidents are doing their job representing their members.
The reverse takes place at AA. Bob and Chuck are examples of the twu's socialistic ways. There was no dual unionism here. That was a pretense on the twu's part. Chuck was the ONLY President that was man enough to tell little and gang he would not sign a letter not in his hand writing. He offered to write one in his own words but was turned down. As far as I am concerned Chuck Schalk is the only President that is willing to stand up for his beliefs and fight for his membership.
Our profession needs more men like Bob & Chuck. They are not afraid to state their name and beliefs and fight for not only their membership but OUR entire craft!
I totally agree with you Ken, Chuck and Bob got the shaft and I do not think they deserved it, I know Chuck and when he was an Officer he was not an AMFA Organizer he was a TWU Officer that was trying to help his membership, he bacame an AMFA Organizer when he was wrongfully removed from Office and thought that he could no longer help from within the TWU.Ken MacTiernan said:
