American Seeks to Halt Worker Pay Raises

[StraaightTaalk]

NHBB, You honestly didn't think this would be a cake walk did you? Everyone knows that AMR has the highest costs, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they will do next. I am guessing they will threaten BK again to axe the pension. If you take 3 contracts up for negotiations at the same time, and the fact that, if their labor costs as a whole rise around 25-30% they will be posting losses again, it doesn't paint for a rosy negotiation on anyones part. Also, it doesn't help that oil keeps going up and staying that way. The most unfortunate thing is the fact that, while execs reap the bonuses the employess lose ALOT - the lifestyle of alot of people has had to change (think, no more lake house) . Trust, most airline workers are all tooooo used to this. So, the fact that the unions gave the concessions to keep AMR out of BK, they kept the largest negotiating tool in place.. THE PENSION.. Many, people will buckle and take a concession to keep that pension, and they know this - so get ready it is going to get ugly... If you took an approxy across the scale then you would assume if AMR gave workers at 3 unions a 5% pay increase and some work rules back, they will be skating on thin ice, There are two ways this can play out, as the article says, BUH BYE Eagle and other assets, or BUH BYE pension.

BUH BYE, United, rather. (It will either be broken up into pieces and sold off, or sold off to the highest bidder.) I wonder how the UA f/a's, if taken by the acquirer, are going to enjoy being at the bottom of somebody else's seniority list (ie CO). Furloughs? Possible. I guess some may have to go back to USAirways Express, or maybe bagging groceries at the supermarket.

Tilton is going to get his way.

There is no need to throw the gloom-and-doom our way. You've got PLENTY of your own.

 

[FWAAA]

NHBB, You honestly didn't think this would be a cake walk did you? Everyone knows that AMR has the highest costs, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what they will do next. I am guessing they will threaten BK again to axe the pension. If you take 3 contracts up for negotiations at the same time, and the fact that, if their labor costs as a whole rise around 25-30% they will be posting losses again, it doesn't paint for a rosy negotiation on anyones part. Also, it doesn't help that oil keeps going up and staying that way. The most unfortunate thing is the fact that, while execs reap the bonuses the employess lose ALOT - the lifestyle of alot of people has had to change (think, no more lake house) . Trust, most airline workers are all tooooo used to this. So, the fact that the unions gave the concessions to keep AMR out of BK, they kept the largest negotiating tool in place.. THE PENSION.. Many, people will buckle and take a concession to keep that pension, and they know this - so get ready it is going to get ugly... If you took an approxy across the scale then you would assume if AMR gave workers at 3 unions a 5% pay increase and some work rules back, they will be skating on thin ice, There are two ways this can play out, as the article says, BUH BYE Eagle and other assets, or BUH BYE pension.

You seem fixated on AA's pensions. Despite your assertions, the company isn't gonna threaten to terminate the pensions anytime soon. Two reasons for this.

One, the AMR defined benefit pensions are currently almost completely funded and two, they require less cash outlay both as a percentage of revenue and as a percentage of employee comp than the defined contribution plans in place at both WN and UA. Not a chance that AA would terminate that advantage.

 

[StraaightTaalk]

great fact based arguments and points made in the topic thus far..!
no b/s and politics, please continue...!
....Im proud of you all !!!!!!!!!
this most certainly will be the fight of our lives....

You cannot be so naive as to think it would be easy. When have negotiations ever been easy?

Anybody who thought that AMR would just hand back our concessions without a fight is simply naive.

 

[FWAAA]

Another reason the educate the employees as to the new BK laws (31 Oct 2005) and how they might severely limit the hand the execs can play.

Most of the legal opinions I've read state that a company filing BK would not be able to dump pensions quite as easily as pre-October 2005, but they will be able to freeze them (ala NWA and CAL, I believe). Instead of liberal "failure" bonuses to the execs for "retention" (allowing them to do more damage to the company they supposedly are trying to save), the law has been opined to tighten up on this, allowing a "retention" payment only upon showing a job offer. If (big IF) the BK judge desires, he can tell the exec to take the new job rather than suck more money from the company. These are among many things that legal opinions say could change.

The bankruptcy code amendments didn't alter the possibility of a distress termination.

Since so few companies have filed for BK since the law was modified, there are few examples or precidents as to how the modified law would be applied, but it can't be good for the companies and execs or many more would have tried to gain advantage from it. Airline bankruptcies were, it seems, a weekly (wry humor) occurance for a while. How many of late?

Since all the troubled major airlines already filed before the amendments took effect, the lack of new filings is to be expected, no?

Consider the rush to court of NWA and DAL to get in under the wire. Neither one really needed to file Chapter 11 but it was a way to get their costs down while enriching the executives. It's doubtful they'd be in such a rush today.

Neither one needed to file Ch 11? That's a good one.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

Very true, but...

A walkout would be illegal and set public opinion against us. Better to get it across to the public what our executive trash is, but no way in hell would any of the three unions attempt that.

Agreed, and my fault for not being more specific. I know the unions would never do such a thing, they haven't the balls. I was actually referring to the non-represented work groups, which are greater in number and have the ability to get-er-done if they could collectively muster a fart. Unfortunately, the non-union employees (read: agents) can't be brought together. AA brought down their communications almost five years ago, the same time they arbitrarily slashed their wages, etc., without a voice.

If agents walk, gates don't open, planes don't load. Anyone who thinks management at any of the hubs even knows how to run a jetbridge let alone board an oversold flight, please share the meds!

As for public opinion, the public already thinks/knows AA is flying old junk and is nothing more than Greyhound in the sky. The public's opinion of AA could not be any worse than it already is. Most of them don't know what's going on. A shut down would remedy that.

Again, IMHO I don't speak for non-unionized employees but I can say this: any airline employee that is not represented by a contract right now is in deep shite, and may as well kiss their lousy paying jobs buh-bye!

My best gut estimate is that AA will move to reduce non-union head count by at least 50% and replace them with minimum wage zero benefit workers. It's coming, I've never been wrong when it comes to corporate intentions regarding their labor force.

AA had high hopes that their one-stop machines would do the trick but, as predicted by the experts, they failed. The idea was to remove 7 counter agents for every one stop machine and it hasn't worked.

Best of luck to all. Everyone will be watching this three ring circus as it unfolds.

A personal message to Gerard Arpey (and yes, I know AA copies ALL internet posts by WingNaPrayer) You have got a lot of nerve as someone who started out in the rank-n-file, and now it's you who are crapping all over what you used to be. You're a selfless, greedy bastard and eventually, you'll be handed your own framable pink slip! Enjoy the spoils while you can, Karma is one mean beotch!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

great fact based arguments and points made in the topic thus far..!
no b/s and politics, please continue...!
....Im proud of you all !!!!!!!!!
this most certainly will be the fight of our lives....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Very well put.....AC AA LA FA, very well put !!!

Always PREPARE for the worst scenario, then FIGHT THOSE GREEDY BAS-TARDS from that point, going FORWARD.

AA is NO DUMMY. Never has been, never will be.

Having said that...(as suggested already)...MAKE the PUBLIC aware of your "take NO prisioners stance...Thinking from the WORST CASE scenario, and WITHOUT QUESTION....ESPECIALLY towards the twu/apfa, that the union workers at AA are MORE than willing to "put EVERYTHING on the line".

Once you can neutralize the twu/apfa from the equation(APA will get pretty much what they want), I'm not suggesting AA will just shut the doors.....FAR from the contrary.

From a twu perspective, AA will just "re-invent itself"...doing a NW IAM scenario.....Like outsourcing AMT's and FSC's from everywhere but hubs and focus cities.

To that I say........."SO BE IT" (and again) ..."BRING IT ON SUCKER" !!!!!

LOOK, all you union folks have NO SAY..if AA jettisons A/E or AAtvantage, so I suggest..Don't worry about it. Remember, AA is NOT STUPID !!!....We're not talking LCC or Doug Parker here !

Your(OBVIOUS) problem here..is the twu/apfa !

So to that, I issue an open APPEAL and "CHALLENGE:......to the members of the twu and apfa..............STARTING with the F/A's from DFW....and the AMT's from TUL....to tell AA/TWU and apfa....to tell HDQ's NOW,.........."No respectful contract, then we are WALKING"

(Snap)THROW the basketball right back in AA's FACE, and respond....."NOW the ball is in YOUR COURT", so you BETTER bring your "A" game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[The Goose]

A personal message to Gerard Arpey (and yes, I know AA copies ALL internet posts by WingNaPrayer) You have got a lot of nerve as someone who started out in the rank-n-file, and now it's you who are crapping all over what you used to be. You're a selfless, greedy bastard and eventually, you'll be handed your own framable pink slip! Enjoy the spoils while you can, Karma is one mean beotch!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Great post....."WNP" !!

Bravo !!

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Consider the rush to court of NWA and DAL to get in under the wire. Neither one really needed to file Chapter 11 but it was a way to get their costs down while enriching the executives. It's doubtful they'd be in such a rush today.

Yes. I was surprised that AA didn't get under the wire, too.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

A personal message to Gerard Arpey (and yes, I know AA copies ALL internet posts by WingNaPrayer) You have got a lot of nerve as someone who started out in the rank-n-file, and now it's you who are crapping all over what you used to be. You're a selfless, greedy bastard and eventually, you'll be handed your own framable pink slip! Enjoy the spoils while you can, Karma is one mean beotch!

Of Course, I clearly meant to say "Selfish" not "selfless" but I think everyone got the gist. My Bad!

 

[Bob Owens]

Anyone under 50 who thinks that they are getting a full pension out of this place is out of their minds. All you have to do is look at your total value statement and see how each year they are putting less and less into your fund. They are bankrupting the plan. They will keep it around for as long as they can use it to get concessions.

With that said and accepted we should bleed every penny out of this company we can before they transfer all the assetts somewhere else. Forget about security, that was never something this industry offered, get every penny you can as soon as you can, after all, isnt that what upper management is doing?. Dont worry, if the worst that can happen is AA goes bust after we maximize what we can get out of it somebody will pick up the assetts, put them to use and need people to provide the labor thats essential to providing the service.

"AA has the oldest fleet" So? They have the largest fleet as well. It stands to reason that ther airline that has the largest fleet would also have the oldest. Besides airliners age by cycles not years, good chance that SWA has the oldest fleeet by that measure.

"AA has the highest labor costs" By less than a third of a cent. Hmm, surely the $192,000,000 could account for that. If AA has the highest labor costs while having one of the lowest wages, worst beneifits and least paid time off then the problem lies with how the company manages their labor not what they are paying them.



The corporate media is spinning away for AA.

Get ready for more and more of this. As I've mentioned before I went to an IRRA meeting in Washington DC several years ago. Over and over again, every spokesperson from government and the industry dwelled on their opininion that airline workers had "unrealistic expectations". A represntative from the Bush administration bluntly put it that the administration wanted cheap airfares for the public and high profits for the owners and the money was going to come from the workers. You have to understand that the government(at many different levels) is a silent partner in this industry. Every ticket thats sold, every landing thats made, every transaction that occurs generates huge revenues for the government even if the industry claims to be losing billions. We have to realize one basic fact-the planes must fly and they will fly. The industry will not dissapear, too much of the economy is dependant on it and even if the industry posted a loss every year it would still not be in danger of dissapearing. Let them lose money if thats what they want to say they are doing, we must remain indifferent and get a fair share for what we offer and provide. The government, the media and in our case even the unions will be against us, they will be working together to lower our expectations. We must not let them win.

 

[WingNaPrayer]

And that is exactly why I recommended that the non-represented employees simply walk for a few days. No protest marching, sign carrying, none of it, that is what unions do. I mean simply walk - all the way home and don't come back until the all clear is given which if I know these rug rats in corporate, as they watch the stock plunge (the stock performance their bonus money for next year is tied to) and their dreams of another pay out in the millions (oh you can just hear the orgasms!) they will capitulate within a week and will seriously take care of the non-represented employees very fast and get them out of the way. They can approve changes now for activation next spring.

Walk out, en masse. Can't be this two at a time crap it's all or none. Those who prefer to continue with their IV KoolAAid drips and stay behind will be overwhelmed in short order and they'll have no choice but to stay home as well. AAs on time record will shatter even further, planes won't leave gates therefore incoming planes have no gates to park at. It's a win-win attention getter. The non-unionized work groups have to work for themselves on this one, and get their piece of the pigs ass before it's all given away to three other unions.

JMHO

 

[donttouchthebeauty]

Well, one thing for sure it will be interesting, for all airlines as their contracts come up.. AA is very interesting however, b/c there are so many variables... IMO - it will be a bloodbath.. I actually think the ones you should be worried about is the pilots.. They have the most to lose (although everyone does) and while the talk is tough, the company holds their retirement and they can THREATEN and the pilots will "rethink"... As posted before, this is going to be a big mental bash, AA can give its workers raises, but in the end, the company will say they will not post profits, and result in BK... Same story different day, the real question is, will the unions stand up or cave... Everything is in play here and I am sure that Management will pull out ALL the cards.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Well, one thing for sure it will be interesting, for all airlines as their contracts come up.. AA is very interesting however, b/c there are so many variables... IMO - it will be a bloodbath.. I actually think the ones you should be worried about is the pilots.. They have the most to lose (although everyone does) and while the talk is tough, the company holds their retirement and they can THREATEN and the pilots will "rethink"... As posted before, this is going to be a big mental bash, AA can give its workers raises, but in the end, the company will say they will not post profits, and result in BK... Same story different day, the real question is, will the unions stand up or cave... Everything is in play here and I am sure that Management will pull out ALL the cards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well "beauty", you almost had it right"....when you said, "will the unions stand up, or cave".

The REAL point/case will be...."Will the EMPLOYESS(union or non-union) STAND UP, or CAVE"

FUUK the AA Unions !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Only Union at AA....is the CREDIT Union !!!!!!!!!

 

[Planesight]

Anyone under 50 who thinks that they are getting a full pension out of this place is out of their minds. All you have to do is look at your total value statement and see how each year they are putting less and less into your fund. They are bankrupting the plan. They will keep it around for as long as they can use it to get concessions.

I understand a lot of the drums you beat but I never understand stirring up pension fear. AA keeps funding these pensions and there is almost $9 billion sitting in them. I know this has been broken down a few times here whenever the topic comes up so I won't belabor the numbers, but I would love to see how you figure they are "draining" the plan.

I also don't see your point on the largest fleet somehow offsetting the fleet age. So what? It will take at least 14 years to update the MD80s and in the meantime those planes are going to be a drain on everything. All of the other airlines are already diving into the upgrade market and at the end of the day, a consumer is going to need a heck of a reason to keep getting into an MD80 when another airline is offering a 737 for the same price.