American Airlines Seeks Recall Of Laid-Off Workers

[enough already]

Good point! After this recall, AA will have to eventually start the hiring process for mechanics. Even then, the only mechanics you are going to get are the ones fresh out of school and those numbers are dwindling as well. But unlike the "MARKET RATE" which is used to lure an executive to the company because of his/her value, this will not be the case for a mechanic.
Instead of raising the starting salary and added benefits, I see the airlines one day lobbying the government to ease the rules and allow for NON-LICENSED mechanics to work the aircraft. They will perform maintenance and aircraft will be released under the carrier's operating certificate.

There are already many NON-LICENSED mechanics working on aircraft. Many welders and machinists that were excessed from their shops are now working next to licensed mechanics performing the same work. h34r:

 

[Hopeful]

There are already many NON-LICENSED mechanics working on aircraft. Many welders and machinists that were excessed from their shops are now working next to licensed mechanics performing the same work. h34r:

Good point. But I did mean licensed mechanics working the line stations.

 

[Bob Owens]

Do you think the Totally Worthless Union had anything to do with these call backs?

Some of these people have been out for over 6 years and one of the reasons they were out so long is because the TWU helped keep them out by agreeing to and helping the company cut 4000 mechanics jobs, even though the company only wanted 2200 in order to meet their "cost savings" in 2003. The pilots got back 10% the first year of their contract in return for concessions that reduced the number of pilots, we got nothing.

 

[Joe Patroni]

<_< ----- So Ed M. finally retired! Good wrench! I believe Joe is right on this one! LAX, at present, is not a 25% station for AMT's, until a exTWA sets foot on the property! But we have another issue those boys can ask Kasher! What if a, say, there's a Crew Chief opening, and an exTWA AMT bids it, an wins the bid, go's to LAX. Does that trigger the 25% Seniority? I would say off hand it would! ----- But however they may try! You know that it's going to happen! We have people here that have been commuting (broken families) for years now! And would love to get on with their lives!

Ed is a great guy and I really enjoyed working with him. I wish him hbest of luck in retirement.

 

[eolesen]

Good point! After this recall, AA will have to eventually start the hiring process for mechanics. Even then, the only mechanics you are going to get are the ones fresh out of school and those numbers are dwindling as well.\

I disagree... I suspect there are still a bunch of former NWA and UAL guys who would probably kill for the chance to get on with AA, even if it means starting at the bottom again. And there are guys working at the regionals who probably are tired of turning wrenches on RJ's...

 

[MCI transplant]

I disagree... I suspect there are still a bunch of former NWA and UAL guys who would probably kill for the chance to get on with AA, even if it means starting at the bottom again. And there are guys working at the regionals who probably are tired of turning wrenches on RJ's...

<_< ----- You've missed the point Eric! You can't live on start up wages anymore! Especially in places AA will need future AMT's like JFK, ORD, LAX! Oh, there will always be the cast-Offs from other Airlines! But even those numbers are getting smaller! The schools haven't been cranking them out like they used to! In fact a lot of the schools have dried up, and blown away!!! And the military isn't the answer either! They're relying more and more on the civilian labor pool, which is competing for the same Mechanics that AA, and the rest of the Industry are! There are enough for the short term, but us "Baby Boomer's" have just started to retire, and in the next few years, that will accelerate throughout the Industry!

 

[Bob Owens]

<_< ----- You've missed the point Eric! You can't live on start up wages anymore! Especially in places AA will need future AMT's like JFK, ORD, LAX! Oh, there will always be the cast-Offs from other Airlines! But even those numbers are getting smaller! The schools haven't been cranking them out like they used to! In fact a lot of the schools have dried up, and blown away!!! And the military isn't the answer either! They're relying more and more on the civilian labor pool, which is competing for the same Mechanics that AA, and the rest of the Industry are! There are enough for the short term, but us "Baby Boomer's" have just started to retire, and in the next few years, that will accelerate throughout the Industry!

Exactly. There are very few "kids" in the industry. Even with the recalls my guess is the average age of a mechanic at JFK is around 55 or more. Probably even higher by you in MCI. There is less than a handful that are in the 20s. With the recall of TWA the average age will go up, not down. As far as the RJ mechs they will probably stay put for the same reason mechs stayed put at the majors-seniority and the fact that it brings better shifts and vacations. I dont see a mass exodus from the RJs, although maybe thats a factor as to why why AMR is getting rid of EAgle, so they dont get to keep their time if they do.

More and more, mechanics are becoming the "secondary income" in their families, meaning their wives earn more than they do, they stay because if they show up on nights or afternoons they can provide childcare, as far as the airplanes, they could care less and it shows.

 

[Joe Patroni]

<_< ----- You've missed the point Eric! You can't live on start up wages anymore! Especially in places AA will need future AMT's like JFK, ORD, LAX! Oh, there will always be the cast-Offs from other Airlines! But even those numbers are getting smaller! The schools haven't been cranking them out like they used to! In fact a lot of the schools have dried up, and blown away!!! And the military isn't the answer either! They're relying more and more on the civilian labor pool, which is competing for the same Mechanics that AA, and the rest of the Industry are! There are enough for the short term, but us "Baby Boomer's" have just started to retire, and in the next few years, that will accelerate throughout the Industry!

The airlines have also lost a big pool of qualifed persons by laying them off for several years causing them to move on to new careers. Just look at the numbers. The count of people returning is small, less than 50%. Those of us that have turned down the recall are doing our best to discourage anyone from even thinking that AMT is a viable career choice. After all, it is not hard to make more money and be less abused by doing something else.

 

[FWAAA]

Good point! After this recall, AA will have to eventually start the hiring process for mechanics. Even then, the only mechanics you are going to get are the ones fresh out of school and those numbers are dwindling as well. But unlike the "MARKET RATE" which is used to lure an executive to the company because of his/her value, this will not be the case for a mechanic.
Instead of raising the starting salary and added benefits, I see the airlines one day lobbying the government to ease the rules and allow for NON-LICENSED mechanics to work the aircraft. They will perform maintenance and aircraft will be released under the carrier's operating certificate.

I'm not as pessimistic as you. If enough mechanics retire and the furloughed won't return, at some point, the starting wage will have to increase until enough qualified applicants are hired. Isn't that how it works for engineers, nurses, computer science geeks, etc? Those are fields where starting pay has exploded for the last 20-30 years. Grads with those degrees are sought after and their starting wages reflect it. I just don't see why it will be any different for skilled aircraft mechanics. For a long time now, mechanics wages haven't had to be increased to attract new hires - in part because so much maintenance has been moved overseas - there's been a glut of mechanics. UA alone let go of thousands of AMTs.

Ultimately, you may be right - but I'm more optimistic.

 

[The Goose]

I'm not as pessimistic as you. If enough mechanics retire and the furloughed won't return, at some point, the starting wage will have to increase until enough qualified applicants are hired. Isn't that how it works for engineers, nurses, computer science geeks, etc? Those are fields where starting pay has exploded for the last 20-30 years. Grads with those degrees are sought after and their starting wages reflect it. I just don't see why it will be any different for skilled aircraft mechanics. For a long time now, mechanics wages haven't had to be increased to attract new hires - in part because so much maintenance has been moved overseas - there's been a glut of mechanics. UA alone let go of thousands of AMTs.

Ultimately, you may be right - but I'm more optimistic.

The keyword is college educated. Regardless of the necessity and what little it brings to the table in terms of common sense, that's what is in demand.

Mechs typically (certainly not all - some have more) have 2 years at the associate level and A & P certificates. Most airlines have gone far out of their way to impress how easily that work could be farmed out to a low wage vendor and some, as in the case of NWA, have done so, gutting their maintenance capabilities and losing control of their work.

You're right though - it wouldn't be any different for the skilled mech, except for the out that's been handed to the companies, allowing the maintenance to be done overseas with little or no FAA oversight.

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm not as pessimistic as you. If enough mechanics retire and the furloughed won't return, at some point, the starting wage will have to increase until enough qualified applicants are hired. Isn't that how it works for engineers, nurses, computer science geeks, etc? Those are fields where starting pay has exploded for the last 20-30 years. Grads with those degrees are sought after and their starting wages reflect it. I just don't see why it will be any different for skilled aircraft mechanics. For a long time now, mechanics wages haven't had to be increased to attract new hires - in part because so much maintenance has been moved overseas - there's been a glut of mechanics. UA alone let go of thousands of AMTs.

Ultimately, you may be right - but I'm more optimistic.

From where your sitting its easy to be optimistic.

Starting pay has exploded for Engineers, nurses and computer geeks? I guess that if everything around you falls down it can seem like you are going up. When adjusted for inflation nurses, despite high demand, are at best holding their own.

Despite your faith in markets they can and are manipulated. Besides why should we be the only ones who settle for the lowest pay that the market will bear. If thats the case then we are justified in doing as little as we can get away with. Is that the formula for a successful business? Pay just enough to get them to come through the door and accept that they will do just enough that you dont have enough to fire them?

CEOs dont accept "market rate". Look at what a lousy job most of them do. Surely there are plenty of people who would be willing to take on their jobs for half of what they are paying. The market for executives is a rigged market. Those who do the hiring are executives themselves and have more to gain by inflating executive salaries than by hiring competant but lower paid "outsiders".

 

[MCI transplant]

I'm not as pessimistic as you. If enough mechanics retire and the furloughed won't return, at some point, the starting wage will have to increase until enough qualified applicants are hired. Isn't that how it works for engineers, nurses, computer science geeks, etc? Those are fields where starting pay has exploded for the last 20-30 years. Grads with those degrees are sought after and their starting wages reflect it. I just don't see why it will be any different for skilled aircraft mechanics. For a long time now, mechanics wages haven't had to be increased to attract new hires - in part because so much maintenance has been moved overseas - there's been a glut of mechanics. UA alone let go of thousands of AMTs.

Ultimately, you may be right - but I'm more optimistic.

<_< FWAA----- Let me make a point here! First is that we're not talking about some a "abstract" scenario here! The fact of the matter is that AA isn't getting the number of AMT's back that they expected! Retirements "are" out pacing call backs! And that is not about to change! As I said before, for the sort term, there will be enough AMT's to fill AA's needs. But AA, and the rest of the Industry are losing skilled people faster than they are being replaced. And that's a fact! ------- I've learned years ago that there is a difference between "intelligence" and " everyday common sense"! I've know people with I.Q.'s bordering on genius, that didn't have enough common sense to come in out of the rain! -------- There are some college grades I've known that have no idea which direction to turn a nut to tighten it! And could care less! Although there are quit a few AMT's that have Degree's! Working as an AMT is a "SKILL"! Yes it's something learned, but also it's something that one has to be born to! -------- And as far as AA's Engineering Dept. goes! With all their "Education", bottom line! I'm not impressed! We're correcting their screw ups ,on the floor, on a daily bases! Yet their starting wage, I assume, is quit a bet higher than a AMT's! On second thought! Maybe not!!!

 

[The Goose]

<_< FWAA----- Let me make a point here! First is that we're not talking about some a "abstract" scenario here! The fact of the matter is that AA isn't getting the number of AMT's back that they expected! Retirements "are" out pacing call backs! And that is not about to change! As I said before, for the sort term, there will be enough AMT's to fill AA's needs. But AA, and the rest of the Industry are losing skilled people faster than they are being replaced. And that's a fact! ------- I've learned years ago that there is a difference between "intelligence" and " everyday common sense"! I've know people with I.Q.'s bordering on genius, that didn't have enough common sense to come in out of the rain! -------- There are some college grades I've known that have no idea which direction to turn a nut to tighten it! And could care less! Although there are quit a few AMT's that have Degree's! Working as an AMT is a "SKILL"! Yes it's something learned, but also it's something that one has to be born to! -------- And as far as AA's Engineering Dept. goes! With all their "Education", bottom line! I'm not impressed! We're correcting their screw ups ,on the floor, on a daily bases! Yet their starting wage, I assume, is quit a bet higher than a AMT's! On second thought! Maybe not!!!

Mr. MCI - The wonderous engineers AA is hiring are started around $35k per year. That's with a degree, fresh out of school, and starry-eyed.

 

[MCI transplant]

Mr. MCI - The wonderous engineers AA is hiring are started around $35k per year. That's with a degree, fresh out of school, and starry-eyed.

<_< -----Figures!!! Why am I not surprised??? So much for"exploding starting pay!"

 

[FWAAA]

<_< -----Figures!!! Why am I not surprised??? So much for"exploding starting pay!"

Ok, MCI - You're right. That some loser engineer grads with obvious self-esteem issues have taken jobs at AA paying a mere $35k (do we know that's really their total W-2 pay?) is proof that I'm wrong and that starting salaries for engineers, nurses, computer science geeks, etc. have NOT exploded over the last 20-30 years. Your one anecdotal example proves you're right and that I'm wrong. You win. Don't encourage your kids and grandkids to get an education. Those jobs simply don't pay.

Seriously, though, someone here posted a link to the annual CNN/Money story last year about higher grad starting salaries. Here are links for several recent years:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/11/pf/college...aries/index.htm (2007)

http://money.cnn.com/2005/04/15/pf/college...rting_salaries/ (2005)

http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/07/pf/saving/...grads/index.htm (2003)

http://money.cnn.com/2002/04/03/pf/college...ploma/index.htm (2002)

The starting salaries tend to be larger for 2007 than in 2002 - and that's been the trend for a long time now.

From an article in 2006:

While average salaries for those finishing undergraduate courses are rising all round, business majors have fared better than anyone, with an increase of 49% from 1996, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers. This is against a 29% increase for liberal arts students and 39% for engineering graduates.

For business undergraduates at the top schools, average starting salaries can now easily exceed $50,000.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/05/05/execed.undergrad/

About these AA engineers - are they represented (by the TWU perhaps) or are they nonunion?