American Airlines’ parent company reports earnings of $292 million — and that’s just in July

[737823]

Nope, cant answer it, as the language was removed in bankruptcy.

There is no correlation between the profit sharing and the pension.

All I know is every group at US except the M&R, Ramp and MTS have to use their own money to save for retirement.

In 2012 US employees got $12 million total in profit sharing.

In 2011 it was $47 million.

And from 2005 till 2011 there was no profit sharing earned by the employees, as the company didnt make a profit.

Also what happens when the company doesnt make a profit?

The pension is fully funded, and gauranteed by the PBGC, can you say the same about profit sharing and a 401k?

$84 multiplier, an absolute joke. All they need is more employers to drop out of the plan and the plans solvency quickly becomes impaired. Tell us about the pension IAM officers receive, I can't imagine IAM executive assistants slurping $240k annual salaries would happily live off the IAMNPF multipliers.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Right now for only being in the plan for 5 years, the average mechanic will see over $400 a month.

Keep spreading lies and misinformation.

I will call you out every single time.

I guess you seem to have forgotten we had our pension terminated in bankruptcy, so the IAMNPF was only gotten in 2008. And the current ask is $104 multiplier.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Nope, cant answer it, as the language was removed in bankruptcy.

There is no correlation between the profit sharing and the pension.

All I know is every group at US except the M&R, Ramp and MTS have to use their own money to save for retirement.

In 2012 US employees got $12 million total in profit sharing.

In 2011 it was $47 million.

And from 2005 till 2011 there was no profit sharing earned by the employees, as the company didnt make a profit.

Also what happens when the company doesnt make a profit?

The pension is fully funded, and gauranteed by the PBGC, can you say the same about profit sharing and a 401k?

And if there was no profit sharing, then it isn't hard to be calculate the benefit... but US IS profitable now and likely will be this year so it is important to know the value of having a defined benefit compared to other options.

Are you saying that US contributes NO retirement benefits to any of its other workgroups? 401K type plans are retirement benefits, 700.

We know what the PBGC does and doesn't do.

The question is whether having an IAM pension is more valuable than other benefits that other work groups have. It isn't a hard question to answer in hindsight.

**BINGO**

So much (whole?) truth in those 8 little letters...

You'll recall that I did in fact say I fight for what I believe to be true.
Since you read that on a thread you started, the question is what you find offensive about someone standing up for his position. Do you not do the same? Has anyone (esp. me) told you or Jacob or anyone else to roll over and accept what I say? Not in a million years.

But it does say that if you or he or anyone else wants to have a discussion, you better be prepared with the facts necessary to prove your point - or acknowledge that your argument is based on emotion and subjectivity.

If there are facts surrounding the discussion, including whether Trainer is profitable or whether DL's ACS policies have cost more jobs and displaced more employees than NW's, then there is evidence to support both sides of the debate. You should bring the evidence that supports your side and I will bring mine.

I expect NO ONE to roll over to me and I am not about to roll over for anyone.

Jacob has repeatedly hammered away about the refinery position based on a single line item in an income statement to make his point.

The reason I have challenged him so many times is because I have researched and found extensive information and supporting evidence to support my positions - even while he has continued to parrot the same statement.

I'm not going to concede anything to anyone who doesn't demonstrate the intellectual energy to look at all sides of an issue, even if it is contrary to their position.

If your intention is just to vent, please say so. I can certainly yield the floor and refrain from responses if you just need to get something off your chest - and facts are not really what you want to deal with.
But the default assumption is that we are conversing and the other parties are free to respond.


I can also get the notion that some LAX-Asia flying might be beneficial to AA strategically, but I need to have some idea of how much AA is gaining by doing that and no one has ever bothered to bring that information forward.

I will acknowledge someone's point, including to 700's demonstration of the value of US' profit sharing... but I'm still waiting to hear what other employee groups get in any retirement benefits compared to IAM actual benefits before we can say with certainty what is more valuable.

I would also guess that IAM benefits are not identical for all employees from each company - but perhaps you and 700 can clarify that.

 

[Kev3188]

Standing up for what you believe in and what Jacobin777 has accurately noted are 2 very separate things, but you already knew that...

 

[700UW]

A 401k uses the employees own money out of their paycheck, so it reduces their take home pay.

The pilots and FAs have a 401k match, as does the agents, but they have a dcp.

A 401k is a retirement savings account, not a pension.

 

[john john]

s have a 401k match, as does the agents,

WRONG!

 

[WorldTraveler]

someone please explain what US employees have for retirement benefits including any match by the company and a 401k is a retirement benefit.

Standing up for what you believe in and what Jacobin777 has accurately noted are 2 very separate things, but you already knew that...

Jacob camped on one data point at the exclusion of all others because if he included the whole story, his point would become invalid.

Also makes it pretty easy to be called out when one selectively tosses out data in order to fail to deliver a more complete and accurate picture.


As much as you like to say I do the same, the board typically goes silent when I ask for data to fill in the missing pieces which you and others somehow think I neglect....

 

[700UW]

WRONG!

A 401k uses the employees own money out of their paycheck, so it reduces their take home pay.

The pilots and FAs have a 401k match, as does the agents, but they have a dcp.

A 401k is a retirement savings account, not a pension.

Selective quotes?

Are you still asleep when you posted and not comprehend what I wrote?

Do you not understand what a DCP is?

Looks like you dont even know your own contract, from the US/CWA/IBT CBA:

Article 28 – Pension
2 A. Effective January 6, 2005, the company will implement a non-elective
3 contribution of 3% of the employee’s bi-weekly pay (base pay, shift
4 premium, and overtime, to a 401(k) account for each employee covered
5 by this Agreement. The 401(k) account also allows employees to defer
6 pay on a pre-tax basis. The employee contribution is voluntary and is
7 limited based upon Internal Revenue Service regulations.
8 The company will implement the following are additional features of the
9 401 (k) plan:
10 • Permit after-tax contributions to 401(k) plan.
11 • Establish brokerage account in 401(k) plan. All administrative
12 costs associated with the brokerage account will be borne by the
13 employee.
14 • Permit catch-up contributions to 401(k) Plan pursuant to IRC
15 Section 414(v).
16 • Increase pre-tax elective deferrals in 401(k) Plan to 22% for
17 non-highly compensated employees.
18 • Add periodic distributions to 401(k) Plan.
19 B. In order to be eligible for the Defined Contribution Retirement Program,
20 the employee must be 18 years of age or older with at least 90 days of
21 continuous service. This includes part-time and full-time employees.
22 Participation in the 401(k) is automatic.

How is that crow this morning John John?

 

[FWAAA]

someone please explain what US employees have for retirement benefits including any match by the company and a 401k is a retirement benefit.

I have a better idea. Why don't y'all take your never-ending off-topic arguments about the IAM and USAir and Delta's outsourcing and Northwest's legacy and take them to their respective fora and argue to your heart's content there?

 

[700UW]

Why dont you just put us all on ignore if you dont like it?

 

[Jacobin777]

Well there is another option…

See DL ‘s financial reports, jet fuel crack spreads, and earnings call transcripts on seeking alpha – or you can listen to the earnings call itself at Delta.com.
WN also has paid the highest price for fuel in the most recent years according to an article I posted on the US forum of this site.
How about you actually read some of the information about the subject if you really are interested in knowing?

Doing some research, there were only some vague comments about "the Trainer facility has helped us lower our costs"(Delta’s chief financial officer, Paul Jacobson). Nothing specific and certainly no numbers were provided by him. Also, we keep hearing about the never-ending "Trainer facility will be profitable.....". Always moving the goal posts forward. First it was early this year, then mid this year, now Q4 of this year.

What is specific however is that the Trainer facility is losing tens of millions per quarter. That's not debatable.

I would also like you to give us (me) the link where it shows WN has paid the most in fuel "in the most recent years".

**BINGO**

So much (whole?) truth in those 8 little letters...

+1!

But it does say that if you or he or anyone else wants to have a discussion, you better be prepared with the facts necessary to prove your point - or acknowledge that your argument is based on emotion and subjectivity.

WT, I think you are certainly one person who debates quite often on emotion and subjectivity.

Jacob has repeatedly hammered away about the refinery position based on a single line item in an income statement to make his point.

That is patently false. I've provided numerous links about the Trainer facility. Not a "single line item" as you claim. The links span multiple periods-not just one.

The reason I have challenged him so many times is because I have researched and found extensive information and supporting evidence to support my positions - even while he has continued to parrot the same statement.

Where are your "extensive information" and "supporting evidence"?

I'm not going to concede anything to anyone who doesn't demonstrate the intellectual energy to look at all sides of an issue, even if it is contrary to their position.

Actually, you're the one who always seems to "piss on the parade". AA makes hundreds of millions $$$ & record earnings yet you find some kind of "flaw". AA expands @XYZ (especially at one of its cornerstone strategies) and you find some flaw and usually say "DL does it better, DL will do this, DL will do that, AA won't be able do this and AA won't be able to do that and AA won't be able to compete here and AA won't be able to compete there".

This has been your pattern for quite some time WT. In fact, I along with many other people on A.net (Airliners.net) used to call you out on it back when you use to post regularly there.

Standing up for what you believe in and what Jacobin777 has accurately noted are 2 very separate things, but you already knew that...

+1!

Jacob camped on one data point at the exclusion of all others because if he included the whole story, his point would become invalid.

Er, actually not. You mentioned that AA's Pacific Region is dragging down its overall profitability but DL doesn't have that problem because it’s profitable along all its divisions. I simply stated that you are incorrect because DL's loss-making Trainer facility is dragging down its overall profitability.

Also makes it pretty easy to be called out when one selectively tosses out data in order to fail to deliver a more complete and accurate picture.

Er, another tu quoque argument.

As much as you like to say I do the same, the board typically goes silent when I ask for data to fill in the missing pieces which you and others somehow think I neglect....

When was the last time I've gone "silent"?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Jacob,
Thanks for your post because it is apparent that the primary motivation with your desire to call out the loss at Trainer is because I have done the same thing about other AA operations. You seem to feel like because I have rained on your AA parade, you should be able to do the same thing.
Problem for you is trying to use that kind of logic to justify your actions makes it very likely you will just be shown wrong. Revenge never achieves the effect you think it will without creating harm to yourself first.

The simple fact is that DL cannot and never will be able to quantify the effects of the refinery operations and its increased levels of jet fuel production on the price of a commodity. No airline would ever say that “we reduced the price of air transportation for consumers by X percent by putting Y amount of additional capacity into the marketplace.” Likewise, no oil refiner will say that “we can claim credit for reducing the price of gasoline because we increased capacity at our ABC refinery.” You can’t legally prove it and you can’t legally say it.

However, DL execs have said that they believe the refinery has helped contribute to the price of jet fuel and they put it in their 10Q which they filed with the SEC on Aug 1.

This is the statement that DL made in its SEC filing:
The refinery recorded a loss of $51 million in the June 2013 quarter, or five cents per gallon. The loss is primarily attributable to higher RINs expense as mentioned above. However, we believe the increase of jet fuel in the marketplace from our refinery's production has contributed to the reduction of overall jet fuel prices, and lowered our cost of jet fuel.

DL also noted, as has every other airline, that jet fuel prices were lower in the most recent quarter than they were a year ago.

The US D o Energy tracks the prices of a number of petroleum prices and has them BY DAY for a number of years. You can verify the changes in jet fuel prices against the price for other products and see that jet fuel prices are better off this year than they were a year ago compared to other refined products in the US. The DOE also has stories on its website regarding the Trainer refinery and the expectation that it will increase the amount of jet fuel in the market.

The crack spread is a calculated measurement and isn’t even a single number. You are not going to find a single chart or article saying that the crack spread has been reduced by X amount because of DL’s refinery.
There is clear evidence that jet fuel prices are lower than they would have been without Trainer.
Here is one tidbit, however, that the growth of supplies has helped push down prices.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-17/new-york-jet-fuel-hits-all-time-low-as-inventories-build.html
DL execs and its SEC filings have said as much as they legally can say; the data is there if you want to believe it.

It doesn’t change that the data is there to show what is happening, just as it is about AA’s performance in specific markets. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t make it any less valid.


It also doesn't change that you are not much different than a whole lot of other people on here who turn to personal attacks when someone makes a point that you don't like, even if you can't really prove them to be wrong.

I also made it very clear that I am happy for what AA has accomplished. But you also seem to want to skim past the fact that AA made money in the same month last year only to report losses months later and AA lost money not that many months ago. It is fully expected that airlines should make money in the summer.

You also love to tout the fact that AA's labor unions have locked themselves (or they got locked into via the BK process) low multi-year labor rates that will allow AA to continue to accrue profits and labor won't have an opportunity to recoup those losses for years. AA also cut a higher percentage of its costs from labor than other airlines and its revenue production is at best industry average.

I'm sorry if you have to hear those realities but that is life the way a whole lot of people see it including tens of thousands of AA employees.

 

[john john]

Selective quotes?

Are you still asleep when you posted and not comprehend what I wrote?

Do you not understand what a DCP is?

Looks like you dont even know your own contract, from the US/CWA/IBT CBA:



How is that crow this morning John John?

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

401k match, as does the agents,

[/background]




It is not a company match

 

[700UW]

I said the agents have a DCP

 

[john john]

I said the agents have a DCP

[background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]

401k match, as does the agents,

[/background]