American Airlines’ parent company reports earnings of $292 million — and that’s just in July

[robbedagain]

wt all groups except the iam has profit sharing at us... only the iam has the defined pension i dont know how it is at aa

 

[700UW]

No profit sharing at US for IAM, all three groups have a defined benefit plan, no other union or work group have a company paid pension.

 

[Kev3188]

FWIW, DL and UA used bankruptcy to "rationalize and right-size" (I love corporate speak)their employee rosters. Each today has about 70,000 total employees, but they also have operations that are about the same size; so, they are on even footing there.

OTOH, a combined AA-LCC will be only slightly larger (assuming they don't have to divest a bunch of routes/gates/etc.) than DL or UA; however, the combined company will have something over 100,000 employees. Not good.

Note: Difference between right-sizing and downsizing...downsizing means managers also lose their jobs.

Furloughed/displaced/right-sized/down-sized/whacked/ laid off are all such ugly terms.

Luckily, none of that ever happens at the Widget; affected employees are simply given the "opportunity to transition."

Much more genteel that way...

 

[Jacobin777]

Holy cow, Jacob, are you that dense or do you just want to pick a fight?

Let's try this again for the 33rd time and see if there is any response from your gray matter.

The Trainer refinery is about reducing the cost of fuel for Delta AS AN ENTITY and not to produce a profit for the refinery. Trainer is a subsidiary and DL has to show its profits or losses on a standalone basis, even if there is a different result for DL as a corporation.

DL identified that the prime reason why jet fuel prices were problematic was because many refineries esp. in the NE were being closed. Jet fuel is a byproduct of most refineries and not a direct product. The reduction in refining capacity was reducing supply and forcing up the crack spread for jet fuel.

DL's purchase of Trainer is intended to put DISPROPORTIONATELY large amounts of jet fuel on the market by producing higher percentages of jet fuel than other US refineries. When supply increases, price falls.

That is EXACTLY what has happened in the NE. The jet fuel crack spread in the NE US is comparable to or lower than diesel fuel, a complete reversal of trends that had developed over a period of years as refineries in the NE shut down.

DL HAS achieved its goal of reducing jet fuel costs and providing pricing stability. The lower prices of fuel that DL has achieved are far in excess of the standalone losses for the refinery. Do you realize that airlines the size of DL and UA spend $10B on fuel per year. The $60M or so in direct Trainer losses doesn't even begin to compare with the benefit DL and everyone else has gained from lower fuel prices.

Whether DL expected it or not, they have also reduced jet fuel prices for other airlines, including AA. DL obviously either has to figure out how to accrue the benefits for DL or else go down as the great Santa Claus of the airline industry. There is no doubt that other airlines have generated profits specifically because of the reduced cost of jet fuel.

DL has also noted that the reduced jet fuel crack spread has been most pronounced in the NE... DL says it is considering exporting fuel from Trainer to the Midwest - where DL's two hubs make it the largest private jet fuel purchaser - to bring down jet fuel prices there.

If that isn't clear, I'm not sure what you need to see to help make any more clear.... everyone else on here has either dropped it or has figured it out....

Me picking a fight WT? That's such a tu quoque on your part WT.

I just love how you make the Trainer an "entity" of DL. While in theory its correct, its still part of DL. Profit and losses are added/taken from DL's(NYSE: DAL) balance sheet . There is no "if, and or but".

The problem with you WT is had the Trainer facility be wildly profitable, you would have included it in your DL's "profit category" and how DL is "thinking outside of the box" and how other carriers such as AA, UA,etc. would never be able to achieve the success DL has in running such facility even if they decide to do so. Since its not, you try to explain its importance/how its adding to the bottom line in some other way.

While DL might benefit from the crack-spread going down by having the facility, the costs incurred so far does not certainly seem as if its been a profitable endeavor.

Also, I have not seen how other carriers have benefitted (or DL for that matter) from the Trainer facility.

Do share your proof(s) to prove your comments/hypothesis is correct.

Also, there are other ways to hedge against the price of. Maybe DL should've asked WN.

 

[737823]

No profit sharing at US for IAM, all three groups have a defined benefit plan, no other union or work group have a company paid pension.

A pension that is an absolute joke with a pathetic multiplier that is impossible to live off. How much in scope, pay, and other elements of the CBA did you give away to get the IAMNPF?

Josh

 

[700UW]

Well I guess I will take a hit on this.

You are truly an ignorant person.

Mechanic and Related have only been in the plan for five years, how many times have you been told this?

Ramp has been in it for eight years.

The 401k match was stopped when the members elected to go into the IAMNPF.

Stop with the bs lies and misinformation, you are just a fecal stirrer.

Go back to the bridge.

 

[737823]

Ok since you have acknowledged gains were made in the transition agreement, why do you keep insisting the IAM has a bankruptcy agreement at USAIR? When Tim has asked that question you always insist the current agreement is from bk.

And again your NC under GC William O'Driscoll gave away the store to US, and now act like getting an $80 multiplier DB plan is victorious.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Because it was not a full Section 6 Negotiations.

It was a transition agreement to get the former west Mechanic and Related and the East under a JCBA.

How damn stupid are you?

The IAM and US Airways never reached an agreement for Mechanic and Related, our CBA was Abrogated, go look up the term.

Stop posting lies and misinformation.

Gains were made in the T/A. Improvements in pay, vacation, sick time, scope, pension and other items.

Lets see the Pilots have their pension terminated in 2003, the Flight Attendants and Mechanic and Related pension was terminated in 2005, the frozen plan covering the non-union employees, which was frozen back in 1992, was terminated in 2005, that included the ramp, res and csa as they were non-union back in 1992.

The only groups that have a company paid pension plan is the IAM represented groups. No other union has been able to successfully negotiate a defined benefit plan.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Me picking a fight WT? That's such a tu quoque on your part WT.

Well there is another option…

Holy cow, Jacob, are you that dense or do you just want to pick a fight?

Do share your proof(s) to prove your comments/hypothesis is correct.
Also, there are other ways to hedge against the price of. Maybe DL should've asked WN.

See DL ‘s financial reports, jet fuel crack spreads, and earnings call transcripts on seeking alpha – or you can listen to the earnings call itself at Delta.com.
WN also has paid the highest price for fuel in the most recent years according to an article I posted on the US forum of this site.
How about you actually read some of the information about the subject if you really are interested in knowing?

wt all groups except the iam has profit sharing at us... only the iam has the defined pension i dont know how it is at aa

Thank you.
Explains a lot. A whole lot.

Furloughed/displaced/right-sized/down-sized/whacked/ laid off are all such ugly terms.

Luckily, none of that ever happens at the Widget; affected employees are simply given the "opportunity to transition."

Much more genteel that way...

And you also forgot the option to actually keep the FT workers employed, which DL has done since the merger.
If I’m wrong, can you post the legally required notices DL has filed with the state DOLs showing DL’s plans to … (anyone of those words you have used will work.

Oh, and the reason DL has done that is because they have RRs and contractors that provide the flex between DL’s FT employees and the street.

If the missiles start flying in the ME and people decide they don’t want to in Europe and the US, you’ll be reminded how the system works.

How damn stupid are you?

The IAM and US Airways never reached an agreement for Mechanic and Related, our CBA was Abrogated, go look up the term.
Gains were made in the T/A. Improvements in pay, vacation, sick time, scope, pension and other items.

Lets see the Pilots have their pension terminated in 2003, the Flight Attendants and Mechanic and Related pension was terminated in 2005, the frozen plan covering the non-union employees, which was frozen back in 1992, was terminated in 2005, that included the ramp, res and csa as they were non-union back in 1992.

The only groups that have a company paid pension plan is the IAM represented groups. No other union has been able to successfully negotiate a defined benefit plan.

Wonderful.

And can you tell us the value of the profit sharing that IAM members have lost in order to have their pension?
As much as you want to think that a defined pension is rock solid, you can ask a bunch of city workers in DTW how they are feeling about their pension security about right now.
You can also ask a whole lot of folks in CA who are staring at the same possibilities.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/encore/2013/08/28/why-california-cities-are-in-fiscal-trouble/

There have been articles about the instability of multi-employer systems. Given that the union workforce in the US is both shrinking and graying, the exact same thing that has happened with the steel and airline industries and is happening with the social security systems of most western countries, the chances are very high that multi-employer systems in the US will also fail.

As much as the vast majority of people don’t want to lose anything when their companies transition to a DC plan, they also are finding DB plans are a whole lot less desirable than they used to be.

 

[700UW]

The IAM pension plan is 105% funded, the pension plan is a multi-employer plan so that makes it less risky.

The City of DTW is in bankruptcy.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, we know that. Life changes. FAST.

Can you answer the question about how much profit sharing IAM employees would have received if they had the same profit sharing benefits as other US employees?
There is a price for US to continue to fund those IAM pensions and you should be able to tell them.

You can use any one of the profit sharing percentages for one of the groups that do have profit sharing.... or you can tell us all three.

Giving up profit sharing cost something. The IAM represented employees should know the price several years into those modified agreements even if they do receive all of their promised benefits years from now.

 

[700UW]

Nope, cant answer it, as the language was removed in bankruptcy.

There is no correlation between the profit sharing and the pension.

All I know is every group at US except the M&R, Ramp and MTS have to use their own money to save for retirement.

In 2012 US employees got $12 million total in profit sharing.

In 2011 it was $47 million.

And from 2005 till 2011 there was no profit sharing earned by the employees, as the company didnt make a profit.

Also what happens when the company doesnt make a profit?

The pension is fully funded, and gauranteed by the PBGC, can you say the same about profit sharing and a 401k?

 

[737823]

yes, we know that. Life changes. FAST.

Can you answer the question about how much profit sharing IAM employees would have received if they had the same profit sharing benefits as other US employees?
There is a price for US to continue to fund those IAM pensions and you should be able to tell them.

You can use any one of the profit sharing percentages for one of the groups that do have profit sharing.... or you can tell us all three.

Giving up profit sharing cost something. The IAM represented employees should know the price several years into those modified agreements even if they do receive all of their promised benefits years from now.

WT, 700 keeps insisting that the US contribution to the pension "isn't your [the employees] money". While the employee is not putting the money in the envelope like they would in a 401k election (and subsequent employer match), US certainly considers the cost of the contribution to the IAMNPF in negotiations. The IAM negotiating committee got owned by USAIR in the negotiations, the IAM set a new low for the industry and the effects have been far-reaching to workers at other carriers.

Josh

 

[700UW]

Lies lies and more lies joshie.

The IAM has the strongest scope language out of any union in the airline industry.

Only ones with a pension, amongst other things.

There was no money lost directly to the employee upon the members electing to go into the IAMNPF instead of the 401k match. If you didnt contribute to a 401k you didnt get a match at all.

And US and its unions were not the first airline to give concessions, and I guess you are so stupid you dont understand Chapter 11, Section 1113 C of the US bankruptcy code.

 

[Kev3188]

Me picking a fight WT? That's such a tu quoque on your part WT.

**BINGO**

So much (whole?) truth in those 8 little letters...