American Airlines and Labor Negotiations

[GVPSPIAM]

Supposedly there’s still an ongoing drive for either AMP or AMFA and Negotiations are still ongoing.

You don’t need to go outside and swat a fly that can’t even get into your house.

Let me clarify my remarks.

If a union drive gains momentum it will halt negotiations, it occurred during the last Section 6 at US, the raid was for maintenance and the company even halted Fleet talks.

 

[GVPSPIAM]

lol. I'm not a defender of the company. I think they are wrong for wanting to abolish our LUS health care. What the Association is asking for is fair but the problem is that it blew its leverage for the dues grab and that set us back.

There can only be two outcomes now.
1. Arbitration will be binding or agreed upon, and the arbitrator will rule for the company.
2. We vote on the same exact proposal now, instead of waiting 2+ years and get our gains right now instead of losing $13,000 a year.

The Association was more concerned with scrambling to get their $150,000 salaries instead. No reason to be a member. Voting is all rigged. Few set their alarm for 4:30am.

There will never be arbitration. They could have agreed to it at the time of the merger or anytime after that.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Let me clarify my remarks.

If a union drive gains momentum it will halt negotiations, it occurred during the last Section 6 at US, the raid was for maintenance and the company even halted Fleet talks.

It's the union's fault for not communicating or taking care of the employees. When 50% of a group sign a card, something is wrong. That said, I think the AMP has better chances once you guys give up MX scope since Peterson promised no concession to scope. I've been told what he is looking at and he will be giving up scope. No doubt about it. Maybe if the Association didn't give up its leverage for the dues grab we would already have a contract. Now, the FA are back in line and participating in section 6 and may even get a second contract ahead of us. Look, you guys are on ice. The company isn't going to change its leveraged position. Nothing you can do after you blew your wads. But yea, AMP will snatch the entire MX group after a contract gives up scope. And if the economy, you guys may have to figure out what else you are going to have to give up. Hint: Don't do pay cuts.

 

[WeAAsles]

There will never be arbitration. They could have agreed to it at the time of the merger or anytime after that.

Don’t forget that “Mr” Nelson is trying to sell a product and any information that comes out against his product will be either ignored or rejected.

Such as Negotiations have come to a stall.

 

[Tim Nelson]

There will never be arbitration. They could have agreed to it at the time of the merger or anytime after that.

yaaawwwnnnn. That's what Sito said 6 months ago, but there was no escape and he had to submit with Rail. Same thing here. There will NOT be any self help.
Sorry, not talking about arbitration outside the section 6 process. Oh, its coming.
The only way to save face and be decent about it is to allow the employees to vote. Recommend a no vote. What's the fuss? What are you afraid of?
The alternative is to put your egos ahead of the members and drive this thing hard into the gutter, with the only outcome being arbitration in 2+ years. Hopefully, the economy doesn't fizzle 2 years from now. There may be a very good chance that the current offer, industry leading, gets pulled and scaled back up to and including layoffs and paycuts if the industry gets rocked. I know that you guys always say that's not going to happen, but I've seen this circle happen 4 times now and the company will lose money again unless you believe Uncle Douggie.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Don’t forget that “Mr” Nelson is trying to sell a product and any information that comes out against his product will be either ignored or rejected.

Such as Negotiations have come to a stall.

Which is it? For 4 years you have said that the company didn't present a package offer. Sorry, but if your narrative is true (Thankfully it isn't) then all negotiators should resign immediately if they couldn't attain a full proposal in 4 years. If that's the case, then negotiations simply have not gotten off the ground. Sorry.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Weez, you just gave me the inception. Thanks. I just posted the following:
With the Association driving negotiations right into the gutter by stalling until arbitration in 2+ years, why on earth would any of you keep supporting this miserable union?

All MX should be signing a AMP card to restart negotiations (Although some will say that negotiations have never gotten off the ground in 4 years).

For fleet, you guys are pretty much dialed out and could care less I guess. Alot of apathy so you are stuck in a trap and will have to continue watching the... stall and kicked can.
Now the flight attendants have jumped in front of us and may get their second contract signed as our leaders refuse to even allow ANY of us in the negotiatin room. Never mind they refuse to allow us to vote.

 

[Tim Nelson]

There will never be arbitration. They could have agreed to it at the time of the merger or anytime after that.

Even though we both know this is on a arbitration course now, you deny it publicly. So then, if not arbitration....what?

 

[WeAAsles]

Which is it? For 4 years you have said that the company didn't present a package offer. Sorry, but if your narrative is true (Thankfully it isn't) then all negotiators should resign immediately if they couldn't attain a full proposal in 4 years. If that's the case, then negotiations simply have not gotten off the ground. Sorry.

I believe the online video offers were made last April.

What I said was no one in the Company said that was the last offer or the last best offer as you continue to try and sell it.

I also said that there were pieces missing from their proposals not to mention items that were unacceptable to our Negotiators.

Now just because you rant and rave daily like a end of the World prophecy peddler online doesn’t mean you’re getting anyone to stop and listen to you much less pay attention. But you certainly can be a mild amusement from time to time.

 

[WeAAsles]

Weez, you just gave me the inception. Thanks. I just posted the following:
With the Association driving negotiations right into the gutter by stalling until arbitration in 2+ years, why on earth would any of you keep supporting this miserable union?

All MX should be signing a AMP card to restart negotiations (Although some will say that negotiations have never gotten off the ground in 4 years).

For fleet, you guys are pretty much dialed out and could care less I guess. Alot of apathy so you are stuck in a trap and will have to continue watching the... stall and kicked can.
Now the flight attendants have jumped in front of us and may get their second contract signed as our leaders refuse to even allow ANY of us in the negotiatin room. Never mind they refuse to allow us to vote.

Actual Negotiations began December of 2015 which was 3 years ago minus the extra month. Unfortunately the History of the industry now shows the average Negotiations take 5 years so there very well could be 2 more years to go depending on how long the Company wishes to stall?

Don’t know how the Flight Attendants jumped in front of us since they will have their own separate talks and we have multiple weeks of talks scheduled?

Do you still get comments to your postings on your FB Group page? I haven’t heard a peep about it in a few months?

 

[GVPSPIAM]

 

[Tim Nelson]

View attachment 13700

Incorrect on the last stage. The process you put up is in accurate at this time. There is NO WAY in heck that there will be self help. PERIOD. If you don't believe me, read the letter I attached from the top RLA attorney who the IAM hired.
In fact, after a TA came out at United (Which was a much smaller airline in 2013 than we are now), he concludes that if they reject the TA that it won't put additional pressure on the airline since there is no chance for self help, and the next offer can be worse.

The only outcome will be arbitration or PEB. And the PEB path also includes forced arbitration or an imposed agreement.
To clarify, are you saying that your opinion is better than Ira Gottleib who actually wrote a book entitled "RLA"? and is a consultant for the IAM??

If you can't admit that there will be no self help, then this conversation is exhausted. After the union gave up its leverage for the dues grab, we have been caught in a trap.

 

[Kev3188]

View attachment 13700

Nice job using the AFA’s flowchart, “Sito.”

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nice job using the AFA’s flowchart, “Sito.”

Funny thing is that Sito uses the FA flowchart but that flowchart ends with self help in both situations. If that were true, then waiting is the best option.
The inconvenient truth for our bestest friend Weezle and his handlers is the inescapable truth that waiting will not improve our position.
Again, waiting will NOT improve our position or put more pressure on the company. That's not my opinion, it's the opinion of the leading #1 RLA attorney in the United States, who the IAM employed. Dude wrote a book called "The Railway Labor Act." He said the following in regards to the much smaller 2013 version of United Airlines,
"Thus, rejection of this TA is not likely to generate greater pressure on the Company to further improve its terms, since there is realistically no prospect of a strike."

Ira Gottleib, Expert Railway Labor Attorney contracted for the IAM

The question that I keep asking Weez and others is, what is to gain by waiting???? Without self help, it's either we agree to arbitration or we go to a PEB where they either impose an agreement (OUCH) or force binding arbitration. That's the story.

Why wait when the main expert of the RLA said waiting will do NOTHING and will not generate ANY greater pressure on the Company to improve terms??????

The only change to the above outcome would have been if the union fought for us by withholding the cross utilization. I couldn't imagine the company wanting to wait if it didn't attain it's "Holy Grail" to get much of its merger synergies. But Weez' union went for the dues grab and threw our only merger leverage under the bus.
Not Good!

 

[GVPSPIAM]

PEB can’t impose a contract, only Congress has the authority to legislate it and has to be signed into law by POTUS.