ALPA/USAPA Topic for week of 1/24 to 1/31

[sharktooth]

The summer of hell was not over a merger, it was over obtaining a new CBA, see they have solidarity and a backbone, something US pilots would not know about.

I did a bit of research into this "summer of hell", as you call it.

I found out that Capt. Dubinsky(sp?), UAL MEC Chair and member of the board, found out about the merger plans of UAL/US in February of that year. With his implicit non-disclosure by virtue of being a board member, he craftily, IMO, found a way to bolster those parts of their contract dealing with mergers, peaking in the May/June time frame. I don't know if he "stomped his foot" or what, but somehow he managed to convey an urgency to change those parts without revealing the "whys" or any details. When the company resisted the MEC's demands, not wanting to change the operation too much, the pilots threatened to "fly by the book".

That same time the government tried to implement a plan to "manage" the airways based on forecast wx called SWAP, holding a/c on the ground when severe wx was expected along the planned route. Because of saturation, re-routing was discouraged and delayed operations was favored.

Looking at UAL's route system then, many of their a/c would first be grounded in the east, causing massive changes to a/c utilization for the rest of the day and greatly shortening the daily utilization of many of their airframes. If one thinks about it, UAL, because of their route structure (mid continent hubs and transcontinental direct routes) was negatively affected to the largest extent of any carrier.

I believe SWAP over-shadowed activity on the part of the UAL pilots to a large extent. The pilots minimum contractual activities were simply the icing on the SWAP (as implemented then) disaster cake.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Also, if the unlikely happens and ALPA remains we should have new reps in CLT and hopefully a new MEC by the time the voting is finished.

 

[767jetz]

if ALPA stays, we'll just have to live with it. For now. I can promise you this, I will continue to vote no on any contract that has Nicolau included in it.

That's all I wanted to know. Thanks for the straight answer. I have a feeling that there are some on this site who have not even considered the possibility they might not prevail. And IMO those will be the ones who will then cry foul and find some other reason to blame the rest of the world for everything.

I personally don't want to rub anybodys nose in anything. However, with all the anti east pilot postings of 700. It would be a pleasure for him only. A non pilot expert that hates pilots, especially east pilots.

If that's how you feel, I understand. There are certainly a few posters from the East who were claiming world domination and predicting the demise of UA during our bankruptcy who I would like to see eat crow.

 

[767jetz]

...he craftily, IMO, found a way to bolster those parts of their contract dealing with mergers..

...somehow he managed to convey an urgency to change those parts without revealing the "whys" or any details.

I believe SWAP over-shadowed activity on the part of the UAL pilots to a large extent. The pilots minimum contractual activities were simply the icing on the SWAP (as implemented then) disaster cake.

I agree with your assessment of SWAP. However you lost me with the part about secretly changing parts of the contract. What parts are you talking about? We were in the middle of contract negotiations, so the entire contract was being negotiated. Nothing changed until after the summer when the new contract was ratified.

You may be referring to the sunset provision of the ESOP which allowed the participating unions veto rights on board activity. But those were in place as a precondition to the ESOP in the first place.

 

[EastUS]

If that's how you feel, I understand. There are certainly a few posters from the East who were claiming world domination and predicting the demise of UA during our bankruptcy who I would like to see eat crow.

I'd be displeased to see any other group of pilots subjected to any "demise" myself. We clearly differ in that I've no childish interest in seeing others "eat crow" for that matter. Your sentiments, coupled with the implicit presentation that, under Alpa's august umbrella of fraternal bliss, there's essentially nothing more than a collection of warring little tribes/airlines does serve to highlight just how worthless Alpa truly is as any "national union". Thanks That you continually feed "Yea Alpa!" biased ramblings into this thread, which has NOTHING to do with your particular pilot group, merely enhances at least my perception of just how delightfully intrusive, and self defensive, devout Alpa-types are about their little "association". Why does Alpa seem to need such "support"? In that I've found the bulk of your postings to be of the negative sort..pretty much variations on "You can't get there from here...You'll never dump Alpa/etc"....Why is any respectable case for actually keeping that failed monstrosity so difficult to present? How about truly dazzling us all with any/all viable reasons for keeping enlightened thinking such as yours in control of our working futures? "I would like to see eat crow." doesn't impress me as being much of a political platform for anyone else to become overly excited about..........

 

[end_of_alpa]

That's all I wanted to know. Thanks for the straight answer. I have a feeling that there are some on this site who have not even considered the possibility they might not prevail. And IMO those will be the ones who will then cry foul and find some other reason to blame the rest of the world for everything.

Failure is NOT an option. I have NEVER blamed anyone for this airline pilot predicament. I have predicted it, however, for several years and have ALWAYS been a vocal opponent of ALPA merger policy. I've written and preached about it for a least that long but was in the small "minority" until the overwhelming amount of those affected by it realized with me the errors of the ways. Sad to say, we are ALL having a role in this passion play....the eventual demise of ALPA. Much, what I would opine, to the chagrin of Behneke if he were still alive. I wish he were here today....maybe he could help us get back on track again. Sadly, not.

If that's how you feel, I understand. There are certainly a few posters from the East who were claiming world domination and predicting the demise of UA during our bankruptcy who I would like to see eat crow.

I wasn't one of them. I am one to point out, however, that what goes around comes around. Reread "Flying the Line" vol. I and II. History repeats itself.

 

[end_of_alpa]

That is a lie, M&R dont handle bags, and the ramp did not unionize till 1995.

Dont you have another picket line to cross?

Another "intelligent" retort. Don't you have another forum group to shovel manure to? I thought you got promoted to lav truck detail?

 

[700UW]

Yet another attack on a poster instead of debating the facts.

Such maturity.

 

[EastUS]

Yet another attack on a poster instead of debating the facts.

Such maturity.

What "Facts" are you offering that you wish debated? Frankly; "don't you have another picket line to cross" and/or east pilots have no spine insinuations don't loudly resonate within the halls of inspired and intelligent discourse either. If you've actually got something to add that isn't purely nuisance value chatter forwarded for your own belligerant purposes...toss it out allready.

"...see they have solidarity and a backbone, something US pilots would not know about." That will be decided in the fairly near future.

 

[767jetz]

I'd be displeased to see any other group of pilots subjected to any "demise" myself. We clearly differ in that I've no childish interest in seeing others "eat crow" for that matter. Your sentiments, coupled with the implicit presentation that, under Alpa's august umbrella of fraternal bliss, there's essentially nothing more than a collection of warring little tribes/airlines does serve to highlight just how worthless Alpa truly is as any "national union". Thanks That you continually feed "Yea Alpa!" biased ramblings into this thread, which has NOTHING to do with your particular pilot group, merely enhances at least my perception of just how delightfully intrusive, and self defensive, devout Alpa-types are about their little "association". Why does Alpa seem to need such "support"? In that I've found the bulk of your postings to be of the negative sort..pretty much variations on "You can't get there from here...You'll never dump Alpa/etc"....Why is any respectable case for actually keeping that failed monstrosity so difficult to present? How about truly dazzling us all with any/all viable reasons for keeping enlightened thinking such as yours in control of our working futures? "I would like to see eat crow." doesn't impress me as being much of a political platform for anyone else to become overly excited about..........

Interesting spin. I never claimed nor do I hope for the demise of any group. In fact I was quoting one of your own with the whole "I'd like to rub their nose in it" crap, and was offering my empathy, but not my support for such behavior. Leave it to you to always assume the worst.

FYI, many of my past "presentations" directed at your group were actually a defense to several of your own coming on my turf and with delusions of grandeurs, and as such they were directed at a particular few. I'm sorry if you can not read the sarcasm or are unwilling to go back to 2002 or so and read every post so you can actually comprehend the context and see where the poison was injected to start with. But regardless, I have never wished for the demise of another group, unlike many of your kind. Only to protect what is mine, just as you claim to be doing. And to support others (the West) who have fallen victim to the same self-entitled, self obsessed, narcissistic group that I had the displeasure of dealing with in the past.

It surprises me not, that you would find any interjection of opinion contrary to your own as being "delightfully intrusive." Too bad for you this is a public forum and you'll just have to grin and bear the continued opposition to your cause.

As for your "respectable case" against ALPA, that is where you have gone off the reservation. You assume that you have just cause and occupy the moral high ground, after having conveniently dismissed or even forgotten that you submitted to a process and agreed to abide by the result. Sorry to inform you that you are not the sole occupant of that moral ground. You are also flawed in thinking that anyone actually believes your "righteous cause" of looking out for pilots best interest and "having a vote" and "restoring law and order to a the profession," to be anything but an attempt to avoid the Nicolau award and therefore avoiding the consequences of your collective action.

The fact is that you turned your back on reason when others were trying to be reasonable, in order to force your will of DOH onto the West. Much to your chagrin it did not turn out the way you had hoped, and now you try to demonize anyone who speaks against your civil war. You even attack your own pilots who do not conform. It is laughable that you come here to preach from your pulpit and expect others to take you seriously. But entertaining non the less.

 

[EastUS]

Interesting spin. I never claimed nor do I hope for the demise of any group. In fact I was quoting one of your own with the whole "I'd like to rub their nose in it" crap, and was offering my empathy, but not my support for such behavior. Leave it to you to always assume the worst.

So, in essence, emotional nonsense aside; You have absolutely nothing/nada/zip/zero to offer by way of any compelling reasons to keep Alpa? :blink:

 

[Phoenix]

So, in essence, emotional nonsense aside; You have absolutely nothing/nada/zip/zero to offer by way of any compelling reasons to keep Alpa? :blink:

They have a safety program? Oh wait, the ASPA program isn't doing too well of late.

They have a great pension set up? Oh, sorry that is the Teamsters truck drivers. :huh:

They have a robust tool box? Excuse me... a what box? Oh, yeah I think I am familiar.

They have the ACdC? Where the heck is that in the Constitution and Bylaws?

They have a merger policy? Is it better than the one just signed into law last December that ALPA isn't telling us about? Would that be an example of ALPA using a tool?

They occasionally have a vote? When its to recall the PHL reps it happens real fast and they vigorously seek faxed proxies, but when it is for recall of the CLT reps they assemble all the high paid experts of ALPA National in CLT for a "meeting" within two weeks but can't assemble the lowly LEC reps for a Council Meeting in less than three months.

Sorry, can't think of one now. Can you give me some more time to work on one?

 

[dariencc]

What "Facts" are you offering that you wish debated? Frankly; "don't you have another picket line to cross" and/or east pilots have no spine insinuations don't loudly resonate within the halls of inspired and intelligent discourse either. If you've actually got something to add that isn't purely nuisance value chatter forwarded for your own belligerant purposes...toss it out allready.

"...see they have solidarity and a backbone, something US pilots would not know about." That will be decided in the fairly near future.

Post deleted by moderator. Do not make this about a certain poster. No more warnings. time off is next.

 

[EastUS]

:huh:

They have a robust tool box? Excuse me... a what box? Oh, yeah I think I am familiar.

Not fair sir:

"They have a great pension set up? Oh, sorry that is the Teamsters truck drivers." Devout Alpa-types at Alpa Notional actually have a great pension plan.

"They have the ACdC? Where the heck is that in the Constitution and Bylaws?" Picky, picky, picky. What need for any such when plentifull "processes" are available?

"They have a merger policy? Is it better than the one just signed into law last December that ALPA isn't telling us about? Would that be an example of ALPA using a tool?" Not sure what the head count of tools involved in that little obfuscation really is..I'd think it more another singular example of Alpa being a tool.

"They occasionally have a vote?" Hey!...Occassionally counts...doesn't it?

"Sorry, can't think of one now. Can you give me some more time to work on one? " Time's a' wastin'...there's an election comin' up

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You have exposed the SOP for 700UW. Venturing far outside his areas of expertise (stock room, utility, lav dump procedures, commercial baking operations), 700UW habitually throws out uninformed, half baked theories and third hand internet gossip. Mixed in will be the more than occassional slur, such as the scab taunt you have referenced above. When answered with the very logical observation that he doesn't know what the hell he is talking about, his response is always the same. First, an accusation that the poster is engaging in a personal "attack," followed by some inane assertion that the poster cannot debate the "facts."

True, so very true. Good post