ALPA/USAPA Topic for week of 1/24 to 1/31

[EastUS]

Facts will shut us up. Rhetoric won't.

A noble assertion...but; nothing of the sort's yet been even slightly evident within any discussion here since May. The list of instances involving Alpa/west failure to accept ANY actual facts that might be uncomfortable to embrace here is considerable indeed.

"And since the only independent voice that we've heard on the card count is from the NMB who has said there was a problem, the actual number (much like USAPAs finances and strategy for living with Nic) remains a mystery." Aww Nuts!!...I'd momentarilly forgotten = Anything from Alpa's the purest gospel/anything from the east is lying contrivance...yup. It seems that you've nothing to worry about after all....

Let's VOTE!!

 

[usabusdriver]

Here we go again. What legal basis do you base your "opinion" on? I keep showing my basis in fact with case law but I get your opinions with no basis in fact.

Again, you'll find out. Card replacement count is above 2700 now. Still climbing. The vote is coming. Everyone understands how it works, at least on the East.

USAPA negotiates a new contract with DOH as a founding principle.

Under the proposed usapa c&bl’s General B2, “Once a seniority position is established, it shall not be changed.â€￾ Seems to me to prevent changing the Nicolau award. The seniority position for the merged pilot group has been determined. By not being implemented does not make it go away. Seham said so himself.

Did the company agree to negotiate the Transition Agreement for separate operations? Did the company agree to negotiate the east cba for parity? Did the company mandate a switch one callsign? The company absolutely will not do anything they don’t have to, or they feel is not in their interest. Which, in my opinion, would drive their decision to not reopen the Transition Agreement for negotiation, nor to be a party to an attempted runaround of the Nicolau award.

At most properties the pilots view the company as the enemy and not the other pilots. It seems that usapa promises that they can and will get our bean counter pathetic company management to do whatever they desire without unity, and, while concurrently establishing their entire union infrastructure, all without having a previous negotiating interaction or relationship with the company. Doubtful at best. Unless of course it is many months henceforth.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Go ahead, I've got plenty of time.

And since the only independent voice that we've heard on the card count is from the NMB who has said there was a problem, the actual number (much like USAPAs finances and strategy for living with Nic) remains a mystery.

Remember - all we want are verifiable answers that any prospective union should be able to supply. Facts will shut us up. Rhetoric won't.

I asked you this question once before and you wouldn't answer it. So I ask it AGAIN. YES OR NO ONLY. PLEASE!

Would you consider the extension of protections on the golden 517 for 5 more years an amendment to the Nicolau Award? (yes or no)?

http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...st&p=566096

 

[Phoenix]

Under the proposed usapa c&bl’s General B2, “Once a seniority position is established, it shall not be changed.” Seems to me to prevent changing the Nicolau award. The seniority position for the merged pilot group has been determined. By not being implemented does not make it go away. Seham said so himself.

If a tree falls in the forest and their is no ear to hear it, did it make a sound? :blink: If ALPA is banished to the forest and there is no judge in the forest to hear their cries of "Nicolau forever", did ALAP say anything?

Glad you are familiarizing yourself with the USAPA constitution and bylaws.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

There is no evidence that says anything like that is currently in progress. The west has steadfastly remained committed to preserving the Nicolau decision and the binding arbitration process. They are currently determining if there is any way to provide sufficient value in a contract to overcome the east's fear mongering without touching the arbitration decision. If the east remains as stubborn as they were throughout negotiations and the arbitration hearing, then most likely folks will go home and wait out the vote. Clear heads will look beyond Nicolau and see the greater value in working together.

Positive momentum is the death knell for USAPA.

Fear mongering? Typical ALPA response. Only problem is we have been down this road so many times the old tried and true from ALPA won't work anymore.

You should reread the post from Phoenix:
http://www.usaviation.com/forums/index.php...st&p=565459

Their is no death knell for USAPA.

 

[EastUS]

You had me right up to that point.

ALPA is solvent, with proven volunteers and staff who have proven successes. It has eviscerted itself in a futile attempt to placate the radical demands of the east.

I am a little curious here. Would you be so very kind as to list any/all of Alpa's "proven successes"? :blink: Heck..I'll settle for ONE All I've heard from you is essentially how astonishingly wonderfull the Great and Powerfull Alpa truly is. Support for that presentation seems sadly lacking in your postings. Do you actually have the slightest bit of backup for any of that BS? Care to comment on the vote-less pension theft for example? How about the clear decline of the lifestyles of pretty much all Alpa pilots everywhere over time?... Some/any great reasons for why the best compensated pilot groups in airline activity aren't in Alpa? You're quite fond of screaming "Facts"....So; where are your FACTS that in any way support the weaving of any golden glow to shroud Alpa in?..emphasis on "shroud"....


As for: "It has eviscerted itself..." Good of you to notice that, although you're many years behind the curve in finally seeing it. Given that you're evidently of the opinion that Alpa's caved recently in it's astute handling of the east....Umm....How is it again that they're to be seen as the "proven" tough guys to face off against management establishments?..and enable yet more magnificent "successes" for all our benefit?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

And since the only independent voice that we've heard on the card count is from the NMB who has said there was a problem, the actual number (much like USAPAs finances and strategy for living with Nic) remains a mystery.

Remember - all we want are verifiable answers that any prospective union should be able to supply. Facts will shut us up. Rhetoric won't.

Here's a fact. The NMB didn't notify us about a problem with the cards. It was self discovered. What is best about this, is the "problem" cards were generally the ones sent in first. Which makes the senders part of the core supporters. By opening up the submission process (Which was never really closed) we now have many more cards than the original filing. I think it was pretty ingenious.

You ask for verifiable answers. We point you to the website and writings by Seham, Bradford et.al. Then all we hear back is more arguments. Like EAST said, why bother?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Care to comment on the vote-less pension theft for example?

Hey East.....Welcome back.

Have to point out a couple of other fine vote-less ALPA offerings. How about contract 92? LOA84? These just come to mind off the top of my head.

 

[Low&away]

But he didn't speak to Abrams, and evidently, neither did Seham. I would be interested to hear Jeff Freunds response to those same questions. (I'm sorry, he didn't say he spoke to Abrams)

I think we to need to chill on what the Attorneys have to say. They are all on retainer to practice Law. They are indemnified if there opinions prove to be wrong. There opinions mean little until they are tested. ALPA's counsel, AWA counsel and USAPA council all have opinions. So what, thats what Attorney's do. They offer opinions and try to justify them before a judge. If USAPA wins there representational election these questions will be answered.

 

[luvn737s]

I asked you this question once before and you wouldn't answer it. So I ask it AGAIN. YES OR NO ONLY. PLEASE!

Previously answered.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Previously answered.

Where, please??

 

[EastUS]

Previously answered.

....And in proper Alpa format = "QUOTE (luvn737s @ Jan 26 2008, 09:03 AM)
Technically yes, maybe (how's that?). Functionally, for the 517, it extends the Nic benefit as it existed before age 60 was changed. Granting amnesty to the out-of-seniority upgrades goes back to the no-bump-and-flush provision of the TA, so while some pilots enjoy benefits not afforded others, the list itself has not been re-ordered."

"Technically yes, maybe (how's that?)." I'd say that speaks volumes.......I'll presume then, from your post, that it's "ok" for the "upgrades" (pilots returning to previously held left seats) to keep what was "gained" outside of the laughable "seniority" list by way of Nic then? Hmmm...Why's that? Some magnificent Alpa "mercy" via "granting amnesty"?. What's transpired since Nic's in no way based on any "snapshot" taken at merger time. These events have been a direct result of the east pilot group digging in and not accepting the Nic, and setting up to properly toss Alpa off the nearest bridge. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading these boards knows it.....and that's even the slightest bit ok with devout Alpa thinking now?...Interesting......to say the very least.

What could you possibly be planning to tell the west folks who, according to Nic's magical list, "should" have gotten those slots?..Since nothing's at all in any way, shape or form, supposedly negotiable regarding Nic? "No bump/no flush...We just had to "adjust" it a bit to a later reference date than pure Nic, all because of those pesky easties"? If that's anywhere near your thinking, it'd seem that some tiny inkling of "You can't ever have Nic if we collectively say no" is finally germinating out there...at least, between the lines of standard-issue-Alpa rhetoric.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Under the proposed usapa c&bl’s General B2, “Once a seniority position is established, it shall not be changed.â€￾ Seems to me to prevent changing the Nicolau award. The seniority position for the merged pilot group has been determined. By not being implemented does not make it go away. Seham said so himself.

Did the company agree to negotiate the Transition Agreement for separate operations? Did the company agree to negotiate the east cba for parity? Did the company mandate a switch one callsign? The company absolutely will not do anything they don’t have to, or they feel is not in their interest. Which, in my opinion, would drive their decision to not reopen the Transition Agreement for negotiation, nor to be a party to an attempted runaround of the Nicolau award.

At most properties the pilots view the company as the enemy and not the other pilots. It seems that usapa promises that they can and will get our bean counter pathetic company management to do whatever they desire without unity, and, while concurrently establishing their entire union infrastructure, all without having a previous negotiating interaction or relationship with the company. Doubtful at best. Unless of course it is many months henceforth.

The pilots aren't the enemy. You are not the enemy. I am not the enemy. But you can't have seniority over the majority. The majority won't let you. Complain, cry, kick and scream. No vote, no contract. I will hammer that point ad infinitum.

Why? Because that is the way it works. The process going on now is the "participative" part of democracy. One where the MAJORITY votes out the "representational" democracy that promised Nicolau to you and that promised DOH to us. So now, we vote. However, we vote TOGETHER ON ONE CONTRACT! A combined contract.

If we vote USAPA we have one group. We negotiate one contract and we vote as ONE GROUP. You will find this out shortly. The "pilots" are not your enemy. The representational democracy we currently have is. They committed us to a process of LOCKDOWN. Why is that the individual pilots fault to make a choice? If you hate democracy then I may understand that. Many countries have social structures that reduce that freedom there. This country isn't one of them. Of course you'll be in the "pissed off" minority and resent it. That is to be expected and I am truly sorry for that. But do not blame the majority of pilots for doing what they have a RIGHT to do. VOTE.

And that, my friend, has NOTHING TO DO with "going back on OUR word". The MEC's may have tried to use THEIR process to solve this issue but ultimately the rank and file said NO! And now we vote.

And that, SIR, is a FACT!

 

[end_of_alpa]

....And in proper Alpa format = "QUOTE (luvn737s @ Jan 26 2008, 09:03 AM)
Technically yes, maybe (how's that?). Functionally, for the 517, it extends the Nic benefit as it existed before age 60 was changed. Granting amnesty to the out-of-seniority upgrades goes back to the no-bump-and-flush provision of the TA, so while some pilots enjoy benefits not afforded others, the list itself has not been re-ordered."

"Technically yes, maybe (how's that?)." I'd say that speaks volumes.......I'll presume then, from your post, that it's "ok" for the "upgrades" (pilots returning to previously held left seats) to keep what was "gained" outside of the laughable "seniority" list by way of Nic then? Hmmm...Why's that? Some magnificent Alpa "mercy" via "granting amnesty"?. What's transpired since Nic's in no way based on any "snapshot" taken at merger time. These events have been a direct result of the east pilot group digging in and not accepting the Nic, and setting up to properly toss Alpa off the nearest bridge. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading these boards knows it.....and that's even the slightest bit ok with devout Alpa thinking now?...Interesting......to say the very least.

What could you possibly be planning to tell the west folks who, according to Nic's magical list, "should" have gotten those slots?..Since nothing's at all in any way, shape or form, supposedly negotiable regarding Nic?

Well..at least I can't say that Alpa doesn't stick to it's guns and "principles" at every level

His answer was like someone who answers whether their pregnant or not: "Technically, I'm pregnant. But next week, I'll get an abortion and I won't be. So I'm not legally pregnant." Twisting arguments. You don't take a vote to see if your pregnant or not.

He won't answer yes or no because IF he answers YES then the MEC's of each side are renegotiating the award and that is something they keep saying can't be done (i.e. "final and binding") but IT IS BEING DONE AS WE SPEAK! The BRC will, most likely, have a HIGH probability of failure because there is NOTHING that can sufficiently "mitigate" the Nicolau award to the satisfaction of the MAJORITY of the East pilot group, aka over 2,422 pilots!! PERIOD! In short, a vote of NO!

 

[EastUS]

In short, a vote of NO!

Nein/Nyet/Nada/No/Never