All US Airways mechanics and related.

[Tim Nelson]

----------------
On 5/9/2003 5:30:13 PM pitguy wrote:

The way I see it is the IAM appears to me as if they have not done anything for Mechanics here in quite awhile and it also appears that they are not going to for quite some time into the future. I have not heard of AMFA making any promises to me here, but knowing how long the IAM has been here I figured they should have something to brag about. If United goes AMFA then I think it would behoove us not to be the only major airline Mechanics represented by the old paradigm union that may be going extinct.


So please would anyone care to enlighten me as to why the Mechanics on this property should keep their current union and not search for another?

Thank you.

----------------​

Pitguy. You hit the nail right on the head. "The old paradigm".

The new [postmodern] paradigm has been around for possibly 4 decades and it is leaving the IAM behind because the IAM is a "jurassic product".

Workers now want democracy, communication and information. This is because we now live in a culture that is big on "individual choice" so members can make informed decisions. In this era, it is now permissible to question the "old guard" establishments.

Of course you will have those "good ole boys" who are part of the Paternal system, and doggedly proseltizing for the IAM.

Unfortunately, others who think they aren't part of the system...but are, live and die with the IAM because of the manufactured fear that produces submission.
Kinda like the pimp and the whore. All day the whore cusses out the pimp but by sundown who is in bed with the pimp?

At any rate, the IAM may soon be extinct like you mentioned but I happen to believe it will end up reduced down to just a few members by the end of the decade. It's inevitable.

Onward!

Tim Nelson

 

[cavalier]

----------------
On 5/10/2003 9:18:02 AM delldude wrote:

----------------
On 5/10/2003 811 AM pitguy wrote:



I still have not seen anyone here attempt to answer my question regarding what the IAM has done for the Mechanics here. I
----------------
​

i think lavman hit the nail on the head on this thread when he mentioned all the different airline planes seen at 3rd party maintenence facilities,but not one US AIRWAYS plane.and you may counter not yet...but like i said. it also seems to me we have given back a lot less than others going down the same road as we have recently.i see threads where people complain about what they pay for health insurance per month at different air carriers,its alot more than i''m paying.
too many complainers and not enough doers as i see it.ever try and hold a steward election?see how many want to get involved?how many actually took the time to see what they were getting for their $400 odd bucks a year in dues? always got a #### but i don''t see them lining up at the hall to do anything about it.
had a pro amfa guy in my face about the virtues of amfa.did his tirade for some 10-15 minutes,after he was done i asked if he didn''t like the union we have...of course he said no.i suggested that since he wasn''t happy.....and seemed so concerned with getting a new union here,why he didn''t get active and try to fix the one he had.i asked why haven''t you gone to a meeting and expressed your concerns to the membership as you have done here today to me? that was the last tme he ever said anything to me. so when this guy votes for amfa i guarantee you won''t ever see him at any meeting for amfa...he proved that to me.

----------------​

EXACTLY....I think we should launch an anti AMFA campaign so everyone will realize another and different union is NOT the root of all the problems this industry is facing. AMFA will not make all these problems go away, their track record is pathetic allowing vendor work. They should call themselves the LINE MAINTENANCE union because when they represent you that''s all that will be left, line maintenance with old timers manning the front lines. They have ZERO clout with the government, hired attorneys and mechanics will not sway big government. Any union can come in getting big raises handed out at the cost of vendor work which will be permenant leaving many mechanics out of a job for good. AMFA sets a dangerous precedent letting the airlines vendor work and the main reason I am totally against them and that philosophy! Also, they say the are for MECHANICS, skilled labor, but yet they accept utility so they can accrue votes, another reason I am against them. You can bash the IAM all you want, but the IAM is not the cause of the airlines woes. You can say the IAM has done nothing for you, ok go and work for a commuter not represented by the IAM and then come back and tell me you have better wages and working conditions without them. Just belonging to the IAM has enabled you to earn what you are. Don’t think it’s true, ok go and look for yourself and see what that golden A&P license is worth without them. Oh, but AMFA will get us more you say, yes if you are 60 years old and have 30 years seniority then maybe that is true, everyone else is history replaced by vendors. You people who insist on AMFA are angry and that anger will not let you look past your own face to see what reality faces you.

 

[delldude]

exactly said cav....
couple of things that don''t go down well are their attorney situation-how can they represent big labor and the industry management concerns w/o a conflict of interest?
and also this thing they don''t beleive in striking?what we going to do in 2007 or 8 without even a credible threat of job action? it looks to me that as of yet amfa has only given away work and reduced head counts where they go-is this what we need?will we be forced to prostitute ourselves personally to achieve contractual gains?(big line under daves desk).
i just hope cooler heads prevail.

 

[delldude]

----------------
On 5/10/2003 1118 AM cat 111 wrote:

TO ALL YOU IAM LOVERS. WHAT DID THE IAM DO OVER AT UNITED?
THEY SOLD OUT ALL THE MECHANICS.THE IAM SOLD OUT THE INDY FACILITY.THE IAM SOLD OUT THE OAKLAND FACILITY.THE IAM SOLD OUT ALL OF HEAVY MAINTENANCE.THEY SUCK AS A UNION !!!!

----------------​

ok amfa ,tell me hows ''ol amfa doing at northwest and a few other places?still doing heavies?

 

[cat 111]

TO ALL YOU IAM LOVERS. WHAT DID THE IAM DO OVER AT UNITED?
THEY SOLD OUT ALL THE MECHANICS.THE IAM SOLD OUT THE INDY FACILITY.THE IAM SOLD OUT THE OAKLAND FACILITY.THE IAM SOLD OUT ALL OF HEAVY MAINTENANCE.THEY SUCK AS A UNION !!!!

 

[pitguy]

I also like how I make just a lil' more than unskilled labor here. Also I like how the work that the Mechanics have given up all went to other IAM people and the Mechanics received ZERO credit for it. I also like how I am lead through intimidation and I work with NO CONTRACT. How can anyone defend this company union? I also think it is wrong for so many other groups to be voting on my contract. Is AMFA the answer? It is not my first choice, but I do feel it will be an improvement over the current regime. I agree we are the union, but this union is set up to leave the cronies in control. They do what is good for themselves and the union business, not the members.

--The NLRB says that the 'cleaners' must go with us by class and craft. Surely you must know that by now. I think it should be Mechanics by themselves. Strength in number only means dues paying power to the union business.




--The only fair thing to do is to have a vote and let the true feelings of the majority rule. No one can argue that. Well maybe the current union can.




--This above is just my opinion and I am one vote. But the thousands of other Mechanics that have sent it AMFA cards get a vote too. We all must live with the decision that is cast with the voting tally.

 

[LavMan]

Pitguy, I suggest you study up on the railway labor act and how representation works. The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) only has jurisdiction on represenation under groups that fall under the National Labor Relations Act.

Transportation workers who are unionized fall under the Railway Labor Act which juristiction falls to the National Mediation Board (NMB).

Second of all the AGCs did not ratify any agreement, it was the rank and file at UAL who voted, A handful of union representatives did not vote 70% to vote in a contract it was the mechanics and utility at UAL who ratified their contract.

Third, what would you do? Look around the airline business is in shambles, Bush used the ATSB to destroy our livlihoods and the airlines used 9-11, the bankruptcy courts, the conflict in Iraq and now NWA is using SARS.

It is not a level playing field it never has been and never will be. GO back to the early 80's when there was no section 1113 of the bankruptcy code, with one stroke of a pen Frank Lorenzo had a federally appointed judge wipe out contracts and union certification of every union and labor agreement at CO.

In our case Judge Stephen Mitchell ruled every single motion that came before him in the company's favor. Do you think us workers would have faired better by the judge ruling yea or nay on the company's abrogation and petition to make us employees at will with no job security, no gauranted work rules, benefits and wages, no pension, no severance, no scope language? I mean get real and think with logic and not emotions.

I agree the second vote was the wrong thing to do, but I fully understand why it was done, it was done to prevent economic suicide by 7,000 Mechanic and Related employees.

You want someone to blame, look in the mirror and look at your coworkers who are not unified and let the company pit us against each other day after day, you think we would have learned by now, the enemy is not the IAM or your coworkers, the enemy is management and your politicians.

Every union at US took it in the shorts, ALPA, AFA, IAM, CWA and the TWU, now if over 20,000 employees realized we had to sacrifice now or lose everything it must have been right, not likable but the right choice. Look at the pilots who lost more then everyone, they lost their futures, when they had to give up their pensions, because they knew if they did not none of the pilots would have a job. Look around at the industry, no one is safe, all the real airlines are in financial trouble, you won't find work in your field. Look at JetBlue, they have 40 or so airplanes and only 36 mechanics before they hired some for Long Beach. Yes 36 mechanics for 40+ airplanes, we have over 4,000 mechanics for 279 planes, SWA has 1,265 mechanics for 400 airplanes. This is reality, not bullcrap. JetBlue has a five year $10 million contract with EADS Aeroframe Services ( a subisiday of Airbus) to do everything from an exterior wash to a complete overhaul.

I am not saying the IAM is the best but without them you would not have a job with this company.

You want someone to blame, blame Elizabeth Dole who changed FAR145 while she was secretary of the DOT under the Reagan administration who permitted united states based airlines to have scheduled maintenance permitted anywhere in the world. I still cant fathom how any airline mechanic could have voted for her to make her the United States Senator from North Carolina, but trust me they did cause I talked to some of them that voted for her.

If you want real change you need to get people off their ass and vote for politicians who care about working people.

 

[pitguy]

I appreciate your replies. I do agree that the majority of the people being represented need to stand up and do their part in this thing. I have stated my feelings and hopefully all of us Mechanics will pull threw this ok. I do feel that odds are great that all of us want the same results we just disagree on the method to get there. Thanks again.

 

[WNjetdoc]

When push comes to shove it matters notta what union you have....the company will do what they want, one way or another. NWA could''ve still had the IAM in and the company would''ve done exactly what they wanted. AMFA, IAM, IBT, Joe The Wrench Union, it makes no difference when the company really wants to do something....You guys keep bringing up how AMFA lost heavy cks at NWA and then the AMFA suppports say how the IAM is losing heavy cks at UAL, do you see what I mean? Look at us at SWA, we switched unions AFTER the IBT got us a pay raise, etc. during the most severe economic times the airline industry has went through. The jury is out on AMFA, IMO, time will tell if we made a wise decision. Switching unions is not a magic pill. Good luck brother and sister AMT''s.

 

[delldude]

----------------
On 5/10/2003 434 PM pitguy wrote:

I appreciate your replies. I do agree that the majority of the people being represented need to stand up and do their part in this thing.


----------------​

your words ring like a loud bell...hope all will see in due time.thank you for your ''wisdom''.

 

[delldude]

how could this happen to THE AMFA?has the greatest union hit a major stumbling block?will the members wake up in time to see the error of their ways?stay ''tooned
www.startribune.com/stories/535/3888150.html

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 5/10/2003 1135 AM LavMan wrote:



Second of all the AGCs did not ratify any agreement, it was the rank and file at UAL who voted, A handful of union representatives did not vote 70% to vote in a contract it was the mechanics and utility at UAL who ratified their contract.

A while back I said that this would happen. The Union would blame the members for their lack of leadership. As I recall the mechanics did vote NO. Instead of honoring the vote the union forced them to vote again. This time, with threats from the union they passed it. Did they ever release a breakdown of the votes in the second vote? Since the same people who were making the threats would be the same people who would be in control of the negotiations what choice did they really have? To blame them for this deal is a gross deriliction of resposibility on the union leaders part. They sold it with strong arm tactics and now blame you for accepting it. You guys need new representation.

Third, what would you do? Look around the airline business is in shambles, Bush used the ATSB to destroy our livlihoods and the airlines used 9-11, the bankruptcy courts, the conflict in Iraq and now NWA is using SARS.

And what has the response been from the AFL-CIO affiliated Unions? Stand together? No, run for the hills!

It is not a level playing field it never has been and never will be. GO back to the early 80's when there was no section 1113 of the bankruptcy code, with one stroke of a pen Frank Lorenzo had a federally appointed judge wipe out contracts and union certification of every union and labor agreement at CO.

Thats why we have Unions, to level the playing field. As long as we are willing to collectively withhold our labor we have leverage. Even in the worst of times. Are you saying that unions are pointless and can not level the playing field/ Why have them then? Lorenzo was so successful because each Union stood alone and were picked off one by one. The Pilots crossed the picket lines of the mechanics and the scab mechanics then crossed the pilots lines. Both were AFL-CIO.

This assault is industrywide, our response must also be industrywide. Isnt that the purpose of AFL-CIO affiliation? Unfortunately the Business Unions are too preoccupied with "market share (of union members)" to make any unified response other than the typical rhetorical ones we always see after defeats.

In our case Judge Stephen Mitchell ruled every single motion that came before him in the company's favor. Do you think us workers would have faired better by the judge ruling yea or nay on the company's abrogation and petition to make us employees at will with no job security, no gauranted work rules, benefits and wages, no pension, no severance, no scope language? I mean get real and think with logic and not emotions.

If you read into the law it also mentions that the judge must consider labors response. If labor made it clear that they would strike, in other words kill the company, if they imposed unacceptable conditions, the creditors would have been much worse off under current industry conditions than by allowing the company to continue to operate. More than likely the Judge would not abrogate the deal but encourage the company and the Union to negotiate a settlement.

I agree the second vote was the wrong thing to do, but I fully understand why it was done, it was done to prevent economic suicide by 7,000 Mechanic and Related employees.

The mechanics at United rejected theirs. Are they still better off Economically than you?

You want someone to blame, look in the mirror and look at your coworkers who are not unified and let the company pit us against each other day after day, you think we would have learned by now, the enemy is not the IAM or your coworkers, the enemy is management and your politicians.

The Union failed to lead. They acted in a way that benifited the company at the expense of the employees.
Labors main weapon will always be Labor. The reliance and deferal of the members power to politicians is bull. If the union had threatened to take a stand the members would not be in the state they are now, and will be till 2008 and beyond. It could have been worse or it could have been better. Unions used to take the chance on it being better. Fighting always involves risk but it also gives the possibility of improvements. Surrendering is a sure thing. Sure that things will get worse.

Every union at US took it in the shorts, ALPA, AFA, IAM, CWA and the TWU, now if over 20,000 employees realized we had to sacrifice now or lose everything it must have been right, not likable but the right choice.

That is the stupidest remark yet.


Look at the pilots who lost more then everyone, they lost their futures, when they had to give up their pensions, because they knew if they did not none of the pilots would have a job.

Do you suggest that if employees do not work for less that all the airlines would dissappear and people would start taking boats and trains again? If they did wouldnt those industries need more workers?

Look around at the industry, no one is safe, all the real airlines are in financial trouble, you won't find work in your field. Look at JetBlue, they have 40 or so airplanes and only 36 mechanics before they hired some for Long Beach. Yes 36 mechanics for 40+ airplanes, we have over 4,000 mechanics for 279 planes, SWA has 1,265 mechanics for 400 airplanes. This is reality, not bullcrap. JetBlue has a five year $10 million contract with EADS Aeroframe Services ( a subisiday of Airbus) to do everything from an exterior wash to a complete overhaul.

I am not saying the IAM is the best but without them you would not have a job with this company.

Did the IAM hire them? Does the IAM pay them? Or does the IAM take their money and then tell them they should work for less?

You want someone to blame, blame Elizabeth Dole who changed FAR145 while she was secretary of the DOT under the Reagan administration who permitted united states based airlines to have scheduled maintenance permitted anywhere in the world. I still cant fathom how any airline mechanic could have voted for her to make her the United States Senator from North Carolina, but trust me they did cause I talked to some of them that voted for her.

Neither can I but why didnt the unions threaten to shut down the industry then like they would in Europe? The law? If unions had stayed within the confines of the law we would not exist. It is the business unionism culture of staying within the confines of unjust laws that has pushed overall union membership down to only 9% of the private sector workforce. If we continiue along this path Unions will eventually cease to exist. Yea we can put part of the blame on the politicians but the bulk goes to those leaders who are responsible for the dircetion of our unions and their lack of action. Unions were born in disruptions and strikes, they are dying in their sleep, how pathetic.

If you want real change you need to get people off their ass and vote for politicians who care about working people.

Are they going to negotiate with the company? Are they likely to pass laws that tilt things in labors favor? Lets face it both the Republicans and Democrats are both owned by big business and special interests groups. You can not rely on the system to insure a good contract, you must rely on using your labor as your leverage. You need to start from the bottom up, get a new union first, then work your way up.

----------------​

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 5/10/2003 531 PM WNjetdoc wrote:

When push comes to shove it matters notta what union you have....the company will do what they want, one way or another. NWA could've still had the IAM in and the company would've done exactly what they wanted. AMFA, IAM, IBT, Joe The Wrench Union, it makes no difference when the company really wants to do something....You guys keep bringing up how AMFA lost heavy cks at NWA and then the AMFA suppports say how the IAM is losing heavy cks at UAL, do you see what I mean? Look at us at SWA, we switched unions AFTER the IBT got us a pay raise, etc. during the most severe economic times the airline industry has went through. The jury is out on AMFA, IMO, time will tell if we made a wise decision. Switching unions is not a magic pill. Good luck brother and sister AMT's.

----------------​

You're right, its not a magic pill.
The idea should not be to just switch unions. The idea should be to get into a union that better represents YOUR interests. The IAM,TWU,and IBT have many different intersts. Most lay outside of Aviation. None of those organizations is going to go full steam ahead at addressing mechanics issues. Our issues can and have been bartered with for other workers interests. FAR 145, FAR Part 66 are two major issues for mechanics. Although these unions individually and collectively have the resources to put the spotlight on these they dont. They collect our dues and use them for other purposes. Instead of our unions being used to collect and focus our power for our well being they diffuse it for other interests. While I support alliances with other workers I do feel that our priority should be with our career first.

The fact is these unions, the IAM, IBT, and TWU have been representing mechanics for many years and have not been able to keep these skilled workers at a par with other unionized skilled professions. They have bartered our futures to swell the ranks of dues payers in other occupations. They have lowered standards and put up only a weak resitance to adverse legislation like FAR 145, Part 66, Drug testing, Liscence revocation by the Homeland Security Administration etc.

AMFA is not a magic pill. If you get it you will have to become involved. You can be sure of one thing with AMFA over the IAM, or the TWU or the IBT. If mechanics want something and they favor it, the union will not barter it away for some other workgroup. The thing that AMFA provides is the ability to have a Union that is confined to a narrow set of goals that aligns with your interests. They are in only one industry-Aviation, and they represent a limited group of workers-Maintenance. The leaders are accountable and removable. The structure puts more power in the members hands. The only thing that the other unions have is AFL-CIO affiliation, and to date they have not effectivly used that affiliation to the benifit of mechanics.

Dole pushed through the revision to FAR 145 around 15 years ago. Through eight years of Clinton it stayed until his final days in office. His revision was only a slight improvement. With all the mechanics paying dues over 15 years is that the best they could do? Are we getting the best bang for our dues buck by giving our money to Unions that look at those of under the RLA as captive members? They pretty much ignore our issues until AMFA shows up. These unions represent people under both the NLRA and the RLA. The NLRA provides members with a lot more protection than the RLA. The RLA provides protections for the Unions and dues revenue more so than the members rights or economic well being. The RLA's primary purpose is to provide stability for commerce not workers rights. The unions take on the position of overseer instead of protector. Its easier for them to adopt policies in their own self interests that hurt their members especially when there is little or no competition for representation rights. Since the IAM, IBT,and TWU have broad interests in many different industries and we are "captive" they can afford to be arrogant and blame us for the lousy contracts that they negotiated. If they were accountable they would not dare to be this way.

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 5/10/2003 10:54:16 AM cavalier wrote:

----------------​

EXACTLY....I think we should launch an anti AMFA campaign so everyone will realize another and different union is NOT the root of all the problems this industry is facing.

No but it is one of the problems. We all need unions that are specific to our industry and that will work together to prevent what has and is going on in this industry. Workers in this industry have been forced to bear the effects of an economic downturn and terrorism and the unions have been completely unable to protect them.

AMFA will not make all these problems go away, their track record is pathetic allowing vendor work. They should call themselves the LINE MAINTENANCE union because when they represent you that''s all that will be left, line maintenance with old timers manning the front lines.

It is my understanding that the contracting out language at NWA is a carryover from the IAM contract. Lets face it AMFA accomplished more in their first contract at NWA than any other union any where. They raised the standards and you guys lowered them, we at AA even went beyond that.

They have ZERO clout with the government, hired attorneys and mechanics will not sway big government.

From recent results neither will Big Labor.

Any union can come in getting big raises handed out at the cost of vendor work which will be permenant leaving many mechanics out of a job for good. AMFA sets a dangerous precedent letting the airlines vendor work and the main reason I am totally against them and that philosophy!

I''ll say it again, I believe that the language on contracting out was in place when AMFA came on to the property. If so, its IAM language. UAL is also contracting out a lot and so is AA.

Also, they say the are for MECHANICS, skilled labor, but yet they accept utility so they can accrue votes, another reason I am against them.

According to the NMB they are in the mechanics class and craft. By law they must solicit them too. If they just wanted more votes (or members or dues) then they would try for everybody. Dont you think that stock clerks, baggage handlers and other workers are also dissapointed inb the IAM?

You can bash the IAM all you want, but the IAM is not the cause of the airlines woes.

No they are not, you are right. They are a cause of the airline workers woes because they encouraged the workers to allow the company to transfer its financial woes on to the workers until at least 2008.

You can say the IAM has done nothing for you, ok go and work for a commuter not represented by the IAM and then come back and tell me you have better wages and working conditions without them.

Go work for a commuter that is represented by the IAM,TWU or IBT. They will be paying less than even non-union main line carriers.

Just belonging to the IAM has enabled you to earn what you are. Don’t think it’s true, ok go and look for yourself and see what that golden A&P license is worth without them.

Its worth more at the AMFA represented airlines.

Oh, but AMFA will get us more you say, yes if you are 60 years old and have 30 years seniority then maybe that is true, everyone else is history replaced by vendors.

The IAM has the money and the resources, why arent they trying to unionize the vendors?

You people who insist on AMFA are angry and that anger will not let you look past your own face to see what reality faces you.

Tell them what the reality is. Let me guess, its all their fault.

----------------​

 

[Bob Owens]

----------------
On 5/17/2003 10:33:31 AM delldude wrote:


how could this happen to THE AMFA?has the greatest union hit a major stumbling block?will the members wake up in time to see the error of their ways?stay ''tooned
www.startribune.com/stories/535/3888150.html

----------------​

"Joe Tiberi, IAM international spokesman, said AMFA is hurting its membership by refusing to work more closely with other unions on concessions. Northwest is attempting to cut its annual labor costs by $950 million, and the airline is asking its AMFA workers for cuts of $173 million."

Isnt it sad to see how these guys go from company to company urging workers to work tegether FOR CONCESSIONS!

This is so sad.

Labor endorsing concessions.

Labor singing the corporate tune.

Instead of rallying together for improvements, which they never do, they are willing to put aside differences to cut wages and benifits.


IS THIS WHAT THE LABOR MOVEMENT HAS BECOME? AN ADVOCATE FOR THE INDUSTRY?

LETS STICK TOGETHER AND WORK FOR LESS!!

What a disgrace.