Aircraft maint issues

[1AA]

I know you don't like this comment but maybe some of those guys are just interested and care about their friends. If I have friends in maintenance shouldn't I care about them and want to understand the difficulties they face?

I honestly don't like all this division between so many of us.

Maintenance hates Fleet
Fleet hates Maintenance
TWU hates IAM
IAM hates TWU
Line hates Overhaul
Overhaul hates Line
I hate NYer
NYer hates me
This group looks down on that group
That group looks down on this group

Why can't or why shouldn't an FSC want to support a Mechanic and vice versa? Seriously?

Because fleet service never supported aircraft maintenance. Even after the self determination process that was not 100% completed we still had fleet service presidents influence our contracts and votes. Fleet service never supported us losing receive and dispatch, deicing and now aircraft tow moves. I've been to union meetings back in the 80's and Fleet dominated the meetings. We would bring issues up to our union president and counsel but they were clueless on our issues. We were and still are the minority compared to fleet. At the end of the day its all about following the money.

 

[bob@las-AA]

i bet I'll get papered for 4 hours. Dam weather.

 

[WeAAsles]

Because fleet service never supported aircraft maintenance. Even after the self determination process that was not 100% completed we still had fleet service presidents influence our contracts and votes. Fleet service never supported us losing receive and dispatch, deicing and now aircraft tow moves. I've been to union meetings back in the 80's and Fleet dominated the meetings. We would bring issues up to our union president and counsel but they were clueless on our issues. We were and still are the minority compared to fleet. At the end of the day its all about following the money.

1AA Everything you talk about goes back to the 80's. Guaranteed every negotiator from that time is long retired and some dead. 1983 was 34 freakin years ago now. So "I" have to suffer the sins of my Fathers? I'll bet many of those people I would have been firmly opposed to if they were purposely trying to screw you guys. I've also said many times that I don't think we should be deicing.

As far as Aircraft Tow Moves unless something changes it's in both our SCOPE and yours. ALL of our current Fleet Presidents are unanimously behind you keeping those jobs. But the issue has been grieved and lost on both sides when the job has been transferred back and forth so I don't know what's going to happen this time but I can take a good guess.

And the reason among the rank and file that we don't give each other support is because we ignore each other or worse.

Our group makes comments that you think your all privileged and your group makes comments (here for example) that we're all uneducated morons.

The Company doesn't need to do anything to divide and conquer cause we already do it to ourselves. (And that goes for Pilots, Flight Attendants and Agents as well)

We don't respect each other.

 

[Vortilon]

1AA Everything you talk about goes back to the 80's. Guaranteed every negotiator from that time is long retired and some dead. 1983 was 34 freakin years ago now. So "I" have to suffer the sins of my Fathers? I'll bet many of those people I would have been firmly opposed to if they were purposely trying to screw you guys. I've also said many times that I don't think we should be deicing.

As far as Aircraft Tow Moves unless something changes it's in both our SCOPE and yours. ALL of our current Fleet Presidents are unanimously behind you keeping those jobs. But the issue has been grieved and lost on both sides when the job has been transferred back and forth so I don't know what's going to happen this time but I can take a good guess.

And the reason among the rank and file that we don't give each other support is because we ignore each other or worse.

Our group makes comments that you think your all privileged and your group makes comments (here for example) that we're all uneducated morons.

The Company doesn't need to do anything to divide and conquer cause we already do it to ourselves. (And that goes for Pilots, Flight Attendants and Agents as well)

We don't respect each other.

I really don't think anyone on this BB is looking to badmouth people for what they do. The issue is very complex with regard to representation. The TWU has a terrible reputation with representing line AMTs. Whenever there was an AMFA drive, the line would be 90% signed in the first month without batting an eye. The problem was overhaul, then to a lesser extent the title II mechs, then the "and relateds" or insurance as the international would call them. A successful technique of watering down the AMTs voting block with non skilled labor voting on whats best for FAA licensed Airframe and Powerlant mechanics. Take away our self determination. Why do you think we were not given a chance to vote on this association? The international; as usual, looking out for their best interests. Their job is to maintain dues flow and numbers. Clearly not concerned about the quality of the pay and benefits package. The line was routinely forced to accept less with the excuse that AA employed more - yada yada. Well, the headcounts were reduced anyway as it turned out. Thank you international negotiators for the lose lose proposition. After watching the recent Chicago townhall, it became clear that management wants to do it again. Now the the conundrum, overhaul doesn't have the power to roll call the maintenance vote, I digress. Anyway, the international knew there was a good chance that a write in union could win - AMFA. At the time of the since proven phoney IBT representation card submission to the NMB, the AMFA organizers had more than enough cards to call for a vote. They were just padding their numbers with the continual flow of AMFA cards trickling in from around the system. Oddly enough, AA had a hand in that nicely planned scam by producing the authentication signatures to the NMB within mere hours after the IBT's phoney card submission. Not enough time to get the AMFA cards to DC, and the copies were not accepted. One has to wonder how and why AA management moved so fast to screw the AMTs. Bottom line, we expect the company to screw us, and have zero expectations from the TWU international. Since fleet service has always been the darlings of the TWU, stands to reason AMTs are less than enthusiastic about negotiating jointly with anyone.

 

[WeAAsles]

I really don't think anyone on this BB is looking to badmouth people for what they do. The issue is very complex with regard to representation. The TWU has a terrible reputation with representing line AMTs. Whenever there was an AMFA drive, the line would be 90% signed in the first month without batting an eye. The problem was overhaul, then to a lesser extent the title II mechs, then the "and relateds" or insurance as the international would call them. A successful technique of watering down the AMTs voting block with non skilled labor voting on whats best for FAA licensed Airframe and Powerlant mechanics. Take away our self determination. Why do you think we were not given a chance to vote on this association? The international; as usual, looking out for their best interests. Their job is to maintain dues flow and numbers. Clearly not concerned about the quality of the pay and benefits package. The line was routinely forced to accept less with the excuse that AA employed more - yada yada. Well, the headcounts were reduced anyway as it turned out. Thank you international negotiators for the lose lose proposition. After watching the recent Chicago townhall, it became clear that management wants to do it again. Now the the conundrum, overhaul doesn't have the power to roll call the maintenance vote, I digress. Anyway, the international knew there was a good chance that a write in union could win - AMFA. At the time of the since proven phoney IBT representation card submission to the NMB, the AMFA organizers had more than enough cards to call for a vote. They were just padding their numbers with the continual flow of AMFA cards trickling in from around the system. Oddly enough, AA had a hand in that nicely planned scam by producing the authentication signatures to the NMB within mere hours after the IBT's phoney card submission. Not enough time to get the AMFA cards to DC, and the copies were not accepted. One has to wonder how and why AA management moved so fast to screw the AMTs. Bottom line, we expect the company to screw us, and have zero expectations from the TWU international. Since fleet service has always been the darlings of the TWU, stands to reason AMTs are less than enthusiastic about negotiating jointly with anyone.

Very fair comments Vortillon. Except you would have to think Overhaul or Title 2 would never want to sign those cards if they thought you might agree to contractually allow the Company to outsource their jobs for more money?

Maybe you guys wouldn't have but also honestly maybe you would have looking at the job numbers at all the other airlines.

Anyway YES I've said it before. You have every reason not to trust the TWU and even more reason not to trust the Association. But both groups are filled with "people" and aren't just simple acronyms.

Those "people" have a lot they NEED to prove to you guys. And the raises are only the first step until you eventually see the entire package.

I hope they prove something to all of us?

 

[1AA]

1AA Everything you talk about goes back to the 80's. Guaranteed every negotiator from that time is long retired and some dead. 1983 was 34 freakin years ago now. So "I" have to suffer the sins of my Fathers? I'll bet many of those people I would have been firmly opposed to if they were purposely trying to screw you guys. I've also said many times that I don't think we should be deicing.

As far as Aircraft Tow Moves unless something changes it's in both our SCOPE and yours. ALL of our current Fleet Presidents are unanimously behind you keeping those jobs. But the issue has been grieved and lost on both sides when the job has been transferred back and forth so I don't know what's going to happen this time but I can take a good guess.

And the reason among the rank and file that we don't give each other support is because we ignore each other or worse.

Our group makes comments that you think your all privileged and your group makes comments (here for example) that we're all uneducated morons.

The Company doesn't need to do anything to divide and conquer cause we already do it to ourselves. (And that goes for Pilots, Flight Attendants and Agents as well)

We don't respect each other.

You missed my point. Regardless of when it transpired it was still handed over to fleet service. The twu is and always will be concerned with the majority. That's where the money is. Unless there is a card drive then they act like we are gold. That was my point.

 

[WeAAsles]

I was curious what some of you thought about this here. My buddy who I've known since 16 works for this Company.

https://www.willislease.com

He has an A&P, A Bachelors degree in Aeronautical Engine Technology, an ASS in Science and Aircraft design and an ASS in Business Administration.

He earned in Pay, Benefits and Bonus almost $137,000 last year.

He's looking for a new job though. The reason why is because he hates his boss and they've put him in the basement of the organization chart and took away his Management title. He also works from home BTW when he doesn't have to travel.

I'm wondering what some of you think? Is my friend being stupid having those reasons to look for a new job? He hasn't said money is his main motivation for looking for something else and he's in his 50's.

 

[WeAAsles]

You missed my point. Regardless of when it transpired it was still handed over to fleet service. The twu is and always will be concerned with the majority. That's where the money is. Unless there is a card drive then they act like we are gold. That was my point.

So your saying then yes I have to suffer the sins of my fathers.

AMFA is an acronym
IAM is an acronym
IBT is an acronym
TWU is an acronym

Besides the fact you have 4 different Unions representing Mechanics at 3 Major Airlines.

I do agree with you on one thing. I can't see how you can ever really have solidarity with all those different organizations, people and ideologies all over the place? It IS counterproductive.

 

[Vortilon]

I was curious what some of you thought about this here. My buddy who I've known since 16 works for this Company.

https://www.willislease.com

He has an A&P, A Bachelors degree in Aeronautical Engine Technology, an ASS in Science and Aircraft design and an ASS in Business Administration.

He earned in Pay, Benefits and Bonus almost $137,000 last year.

He's looking for a new job though. The reason why is because he hates his boss and they've put him in the basement of the organization chart and took away his Management title. He also works from home BTW when he doesn't have to travel.

I'm wondering what some of you think? Is my friend being stupid having those reasons to look for a new job? He hasn't said money is his main motivation for looking for something else and he's in his 50's.

Tough call, what price does he put on his sanity? Finding another job won't be a problem, finding a job with good pay and benefits with a good management team, and decent people to work with could prove more challenging.

 

[WeAAsles]

Tough call, what price does he put on his sanity? Finding another job won't be a problem, finding a job with good pay and benefits with a good management team, and decent people to work with could prove more challenging.

He hasn't had a lot of luck in the area of finding what he thinks might suit him and I think gaining the same pay and benefits coming right out of the gate is proving to be a little difficult. He's also stuck in NYC because his wife will never agree to move and she hasn't worked in 20 years so he'd be murdered in a Divorce. (She doesn't even have a GED)

Funny how I make half what he makes and have told him many times I wouldn't trade places with him.

Thanks for all the civil chatting BTW today guys. It's appreciated.

 

[swamt]

I really don't think anyone on this BB is looking to badmouth people for what they do. The issue is very complex with regard to representation. The TWU has a terrible reputation with representing line AMTs. Whenever there was an AMFA drive, the line would be 90% signed in the first month without batting an eye. The problem was overhaul, then to a lesser extent the title II mechs, then the "and relateds" or insurance as the international would call them. A successful technique of watering down the AMTs voting block with non skilled labor voting on whats best for FAA licensed Airframe and Powerlant mechanics. Take away our self determination. Why do you think we were not given a chance to vote on this association? The international; as usual, looking out for their best interests. Their job is to maintain dues flow and numbers. Clearly not concerned about the quality of the pay and benefits package. The line was routinely forced to accept less with the excuse that AA employed more - yada yada. Well, the headcounts were reduced anyway as it turned out. Thank you international negotiators for the lose lose proposition. After watching the recent Chicago townhall, it became clear that management wants to do it again. Now the the conundrum, overhaul doesn't have the power to roll call the maintenance vote, I digress. Anyway, the international knew there was a good chance that a write in union could win - AMFA. At the time of the since proven phoney IBT representation card submission to the NMB, the AMFA organizers had more than enough cards to call for a vote. They were just padding their numbers with the continual flow of AMFA cards trickling in from around the system. Oddly enough, AA had a hand in that nicely planned scam by producing the authentication signatures to the NMB within mere hours after the IBT's phoney card submission. Not enough time to get the AMFA cards to DC, and the copies were not accepted. One has to wonder how and why AA management moved so fast to screw the AMTs. Bottom line, we expect the company to screw us, and have zero expectations from the TWU international. Since fleet service has always been the darlings of the TWU, stands to reason AMTs are less than enthusiastic about negotiating jointly with anyone.

I know you already know this but it just speaks volumes when 6 parties work together to stop another union from getting voted in, yes 6. 1- TWU, 2- IAM, 3-IBT, 4-AA management, 5-NMB, 6- Pre certified Association. Never in the history of the NMB have they ever blessed a union vote and verified in less than 4 hours--NEVER. Now I hate to say it, but, I am afraid you guys are now stuck with this asso. for the rest of your careers. However, if this asso does not get you guys the industry leading contract in all areas, and benefits restored to what they were prior to BK contracts, then that would be your last and final chance to fire them.

 

[swamt]

I was curious what some of you thought about this here. My buddy who I've known since 16 works for this Company.

https://www.willislease.com

He has an A&P, A Bachelors degree in Aeronautical Engine Technology, an ASS in Science and Aircraft design and an ASS in Business Administration.

He earned in Pay, Benefits and Bonus almost $137,000 last year.

He's looking for a new job though. The reason why is because he hates his boss and they've put him in the basement of the organization chart and took away his Management title. He also works from home BTW when he doesn't have to travel.

I'm wondering what some of you think? Is my friend being stupid having those reasons to look for a new job? He hasn't said money is his main motivation for looking for something else and he's in his 50's.

WTF does this have to do with Aircraft Maint issues?

 

[WeAAsles]

I know you already know this but it just speaks volumes when 6 parties work together to stop another union from getting voted in, yes 6. 1- TWU, 2- IAM, 3-IBT, 4-AA management, 5-NMB, 6- Pre certified Association. Never in the history of the NMB have they ever blessed a union vote and verified in less than 4 hours--NEVER. Now I hate to say it, but, I am afraid you guys are now stuck with this asso. for the rest of your careers. However, if this asso does not get you guys the industry leading contract in all areas, and benefits restored to what they were prior to BK contracts, then that would be your last and final chance to fire them.

Don't you think you should worry a little more about happenings at your own airline?

Hasn't your bargaining agent been stuck in limbo now for 4 and a half years?

 

[WeAAsles]

WTF does this have to do with Aircraft Maint issues?

And what do you have to do with happenings at American Airlines?

From what I understand the Association will not move forward and bring out any TA's unless they have agreements for ALL the workgroups they represent.

So Fleet and Maintenance are invariably tied to each other's fates.

 

[Rogallo]

And shouldn't you just worry about fleet???

Just sayin'