AFA PHL Meeting today

[galley princess]

Every time I get discouraged about how bad it is here, and I wonder what kind of a loser I must have been for choosing this airline to begin with, I remember that this whole thing is a great big aberration. It happened on 9/11, a horrible day, it has wrought so much pain for so many people.

One of the more offensive results of 9/11 was how some very greedy amoral executives parlayed it into the biggest gutting of labor contracts in history. Remember, before 9/11, Jerry Glass lost. The contract we had was not a "parity + one" contract. Did we take concessions we shouldn't have? Sure, that happened, but what happened with the bankruptcy contracts was unprecedented. The manipulation of the bankruptcy process was unprecedented. There were a lot of factors at work and one was that there was a real and present danger of US turning the lights out. So we lost. Big.

What no one foresaw, or at least that can be my hope, that they really didn't foresee how this new breed of management would exploit and milk these contracts for all they are worth. It is my belief that Mr. Parker et. al have no intention of negotiating. They have the lowest paid workforce in the industry. Why would they give it up? The old management was actually concerned about the UsAirways name, that gave labor leverage. Unhappy employees=unhappy customers. To this management of accountants the name is irrelevant. It's clear. We are the voted worst airline in the world. How far in the toilet can you go? But they aren't bothered. Throw in that so far they aren't exactly wrong, the flying public clicks on cheap ticket, not name, and they're formidable.

We are having to reinvent the wheel on this one. This kind of management requires a new approach. Even the fuel burn doesn't move them. At some point we're going to have to find a way to really inflict some pain, but the only kind they respond to is financial. For the flight attendants I do see some good trends. This is not the group that got dragged under the bull dozer of bankruptcy. There are more flight attendants in school, with small businesses, other jobs etc. They will strike when the time comes because they have less to fear. That is assuming that US continues to exist. This is the kind of group that would think nothing of breaking US into pieces and selling it for the highest profit while they cash out.

As I said once before, time to get one's house in order. And as we get closer to 2011, the end date of the F/A contract, think hard about settling for anything. The only game this management plays is hardball. It might behoove us to wait to 2011 and get to a strike. The major victim in this is of course AWA. They were already far along in their negotiations. They were dealt a raw deal on this one, and typical of this management, they were maneuvered out of their only real power, the right to strike. Remember this when whatever tentative they cough up is produced. Whatever they offer, it won't be enough.

I am repeating this here because I think it might be applicable to this discussion. The thing is, a work stoppage is illegal except after a certain amount of time during contract renewal. Even though MF recently says he foresees a new contract in 6-10 months, I think that he is being overly optimistic. As time goes on, we really need to think about leverage and positions of strength.

I asked once before if AWA was precluded from leaving joint negotiations and returning to Section 6 of their own. The one response I got said that they didn't think it was possible. Why? I see where AFA East wouldn't want it, it throws our chance of doing away with this abysmal contract we have, but I submit that all that is happening here is that AWA is being rooked out of their position of strength, and at this point, we as flight attendants should be more interested in pursuing strength. IMHO, it is a foregone conclusion that we will be saddled with this mess until we get close to 2011 when suddenly they'll be interested in bargaining. That's our mess, but it wasn't AWA's. If they could break off and negotiate for themselves, we all win.

The thing is, this seems very grey to me. What are their rights? The company is not negotiating in good faith, I think that's obvious. Is there any outrage on the part of AWA flight attendants? I would be livid.

This relates to the reserves in that AWA does not have the baggage that we do. They would be more likely to cough up something more palatable to the reserves and bring a new variable if and when a joint agreement would finally be hammered out. This is all theoretical, but my point is, while Travelpro's angry solution isn't possible, we do need ideas.

CHAOS was born out of the minds of Alaska airlines flight attendants and it changed everything for us. There has been no answer to CHAOS in its pure form yet. It's time to get creative and come up with answers. (Sorry for such a long post)

 

[Itestwell]

LOL- I'm NOT trying to make him mad at ME. Our F/A group needs a good leader to get stuff done, and I think TRAVEL would be PERFECT for it. So, I'm trying to get him started so that he will get pumped up and get everyone motivated. We have a very sadly motivated group and need a good, well informed person to lead us. I think that TRAVEL would get things done once he was to start.

Agreed! Has my vote! Trav for prez!

 

[Travelpro72]

No votes needed as I would NEVER run but thanks for the support. If anyone on here is going to look for me to have some positive message about this company or the state of our reserve situation you'll be waiting a long time. As for wanting to make changes and get the ball rolling well thats another story. MY opinion and getting everyone to rally behind ANYONE here, the union or whatever is next to impossible. I WISH oooooooh how I wish things could be different. Ok for some going to a meeting and venting makes them feel better. Maybe not better but certainly not worse. I'm not gonna say a word about anyone going. Some people need church on sunday morning to feel cleansed and renewed too then life goes back to the regular scheduled program in progress. I just see all this energy being spent to rally all this union mumbo jumbo when in the end you STILL face the company. THEY are not changing ANYTHING for the reserves. NOT a thing. Make nooooo mistake. I'm not a jaded, miserable, nasty person. Anyone who knows me and sits for days on end at the flying saucer would know that. I just say what I feel and if it's categorized as B!tching then so be it. Hope everyone has a good day. I've got shopping to do. Ho Ho Ho.

 

[diamondcutter]

I'm glad it was brought up to get Carol in our face to fire some questions at her. She NEEDS to explain herself. Now with that being said WHY do you have to go to a union meeting to have your voice heard? If the union "claims" they know how bad we reserves have it why in hell do I have to commute in if a commuter or drive/take the train to the airport on a day off to listen to the same old dribble? Even after EVERYONE that wants to get their voice heard and vent to Carol what the hell will change? We have these union meetings and all of us who are "mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore" continue to take it more and more and more. It's a joke. You want to make the company listen? You want the company to agree to some kind of amendment to the reserve issue? Take a true stance as the auto workers did and DRAW A LINE in the sand. NOBODY WORKS. Call it a job action or whatever the hell anyone wants. Until you do THAT you will NOT be heard. Fire everyone who walks....who cares. What are they gonna do order you back to work with a police escort? It's not like they can put the "Help Wanted" sign in the window and have me replaced tomorrow. We have a union that is as weak as water. I'm absolutely FED UP with the company and the union that can do NOTHING for ALL of it's dues paying members. Take these union meetings and stick them up their @$$es. It's all meaningless BS. Everyone feel better after the meeting today? I'm so sure.

I wish it were legal but its not...we have a contract. A judge would make us all go back to work.

 

[Bear96]

Call it a job action or whatever the hell anyone wants. Until you do THAT you will NOT be heard. Fire everyone who walks....who cares. What are they gonna do order you back to work with a police escort?

No, they'll just fire you. And when the union tries to get your job back, an arbitrator or judge will most likely uphold the terminations because they were due to an illegal job action. No need to "order" people back to work with a police escort.

It's not like they can put the "Help Wanted" sign in the window and have me replaced tomorrow.

Sure they can. It might take a couple of weeks to train the replacements, which LCC would start to do if it seems like such a threat might become a reality, but I would bet there are plenty of people out there who would love to take your job tomorrow.

Also, are there still people on furlough who can be recalled? (I have lost track of which airlines still have which job categories on furlough, if any.) And aren't you always complaining that reserves never fly? So instead of flying 40 hours/month, the remaining reserves would just fly 80 or 100 to pick up the slack. In any case, I don't think many people would join you, and many inflight supervisors are probably current on their emergency training so they can step in for the handful of people who walk for the two weeks until permanent replacements are ready.

You actually have the right idea -- if you hate the job that much and reserve is that intolerable with no end in sight, then definitely walk off the job ASAP. Just don't do it with the intent of coming back. If enough people do that, eventually LCC and AFA will have to do something about the situation. Until then, if people keep showing up and putting up with the alleged nonsense, the message is that it's not really that bad compared to other employment options out there for which the average reserve is qualified.

 

[Travelpro72]

I have no intention of going anywhere right now....including the NEXT "talk show" starring Carol Austin. Though the intentions are good she will give NO straight answers or will administer meaningless babble. She is no dummy by any means though. Make no mistake about THAT folks. As for walking, yes it would take a pretty large group to do it. That we all know would never happen. Hell we can't even get a few hundred flight attendants to take a few minutes to vote "over the phone" during an important election. You summed it up perfectly and pretty much what I was trying to say in that as a reserve YOUR SCREWED. Deal with the situation at hand. We'll all wait and see what kind of reserve language is brought to the table and eventually send to the members to vote on. All the kicking and screaming at a union meeting though shows the union your mad gives the union NO MORE power against the company to change ANYTHING. So be a radical and fight the fight. Hopefully you have a place to wallow in your sorrows after your done. I myself LOVE the job but HATE how we are treated. I think many out there are on the fence about staying or going. For ANY of us that do decide to leave I say go out with a bang. Have one HELL of a good last trip.

 

[Twicebaked]

I spoke to someone in the union office the other day and I was told that a rotating reserve system would NOT be brought up as it WOULD NOT PASS as "THEY" wouldn't go for it!!!!!! I asked who "they" were and was informed the BLOCK HOLDERS. We need a petition started telling the nego commitee that "WE" the reserves....the ones that it effects......that that is what "WE" want!!!!!!!!

They said the BK agreements wouldn't pass either....but they did!!!!

It is up to the union to develope, present, and then SELL the rotating system to those who think they don't want it.

The industry has changed and we need a system that recognizes that change......like every other airline.

We are the only major airline that does not have a rotating system.

It is time we make the union aware that they have an obligation to protect ALL of it's members......not just the block holders......

Make sure Carol Austin negos a rotating system......

 

[flightattend21]

I spoke to someone in the union office the other day and I was told that a rotating reserve system would NOT be brought up as it WOULD NOT PASS as "THEY" wouldn't go for it!!!!!! I asked who "they" were and was informed the BLOCK HOLDERS. We need a petition started telling the nego commitee that "WE" the reserves....the ones that it effects......that that is what "WE" want!!!!!!!!

They said the BK agreements wouldn't pass either....but they did!!!!

It is up to the union to develop present, and then SELL the rotating system to those who think they don't want it.

The industry has changed and we need a system that recognizes that change......like every other airline.

We are the only major airline that does not have a rotating system.

It is time we make the union aware that they have an obligation to protect ALL of it's members......not just the block holders......

Make sure Carol Austin negos a rotating system......

I was at the union meeting. MIKE Flores did not want to bring up to the commitee about rotating. However because we (reserves) and the blockholders (yes blockholders) that were there. We kept repeating ourselves he finally agreed to do it. I stated at the meeting I wanted it in writing. should it be turned down, then he wont be in the fire. Do I think personally things will change for us? Probably not - know why? because there are TOO many people on the fence, who hmmm and hawwwww complain BUT DO ABSOLUTLY NOTHING so even if something were to change it will not because of those people but because of the few who went against all the bully's and do nothing greedy (fill in blank) and fought. So many times people are told "no wont happen" but guess what - women vote now. we have protected classes. why we even have same sex couples who have rights to insurance and to be on their companion passes. was it a hard battle YES but enough people stood up.
If you truly want to do something write a letter, go to the meetings, write to your legistlators.

 

[FlightChic]

I was at the union meeting. MIKE Flores did not want to bring up to the commitee about rotating. However because we (reserves) and the blockholders (yes blockholders) that were there. We kept repeating ourselves he finally agreed to do it. I stated at the meeting I wanted it in writing. should it be turned down, then he wont be in the fire. Do I think personally things will change for us? Probably not - know why? because there are TOO many people on the fence, who hmmm and hawwwww complain BUT DO ABSOLUTLY NOTHING so even if something were to change it will not because of those people but because of the few who went against all the bully's and do nothing greedy (fill in blank) and fought. So many times people are told "no wont happen" but guess what - women vote now. we have protected classes. why we even have same sex couples who have rights to insurance and to be on their companion passes. was it a hard battle YES but enough people stood up.
If you truly want to do something write a letter, go to the meetings, write to your legistlators.

Twicebaked, I agree with you about how the union needs to represent all members. However, I was also at the union meeting and different people kept bringing the rotating reserve system up at the meeting and Mike finally agreed to bring it up to the committee. I was there and so I know. MF has to and he better bring it up to them. Maybe the committee will not go for it, but he has to at least bring it up. It does suck how our union only looks out for certain ones. I'm sick and tired of it and I am ready for a change in leadership.

 

[Twicebaked]

Well then, a survey needs to be done BY THE UNION.....

Very simple....

Would you support a rotating reserve system? If the majority says YES, then they have no choice but to put it in the TA.

In fact, I want to know what the last survey came up with..... Mike?

 

[theFLYonthewall]

Well then, a survey needs to be done BY THE UNION.....

Very simple....

Would you support a rotating reserve system? If the majority says YES, then they have no choice but to put it in the TA.

In fact, I want to know what the last survey came up with..... Mike?

I am on reserve, have been on reserve nearly all of my 16 + years here. NO way would I vote for a rotating reserve, when an if I ever get a block, I do not want to rotate back into reserve.

 

[FlightChic]

I am on reserve, have been on reserve nearly all of my 16 + years here. NO way would I vote for a rotating reserve, when an if I ever get a block, I do not want to rotate back into reserve.

I'm just curious, what would an ideal reserve system be for you?

 

[theFLYonthewall]

I'm just curious, what would an ideal reserve system be for you?

I have been on both reserve systems this company has had. The seniority driven system with all the advantages of passing and flying on your off days, being leveled, and calling out of time by the 20th of the month. Its not great, if you are on the bottom half of the seniority list. You didn't start to fly until the top half called out of time, they would hog every trip they could get their hands on just to get out of time. Can't blame them. We still had dead zones. The top half flew, the bottom 2 dozen lived on quick calls so they flew, the middle sat. When I first started flying I was on the bottom for 2 months so they kicked my arse flying all the time. Then a few classes graduated and went below me, I sat for the next 6 months never broke guarantee. (It was a 68 hr pay guarantee for 19 days). There was no ETB, so there was no ability to pick up any trips that paid above your pay guarantee so you could at least get some sort of paycheck. Of course we had no life because we never had a clue as to when we would be called, we had no option 18. You were at the mercy of a phone tree, someone in the next apt. building would call and say scheduling just called they have 5 trips. Then you would call 5 people to give them a heads up. Looking back at it now, its funny what we use to have to do.

This LTO system isn't any better, you still have "dead zones" you still have flight attendants not breaking guarantee. The advantage of this system is at least we have some idea of what number we are to be called from daily and for future. The ability to fly ETB and have it paid above your guarantee, would of loved that 10 years ago.

The only thing that will create more blocks is time, which translates to growth or attrition neither of which this company sees enough of. I don't know that any system is going to be great. IMO you do not need 500 reserves in a base, no one will break guarantee if you have that many flight attendants on reserve regardless of what type of system you have. I agree with those saying if a rotating reserve is negotiated in a new agreement, the membership will not ratify the new contract. With the seniority in this company, you would have to say any one with 22 years or more would not have to rotate, thats nearly the entire base in LGA. They are not going to go for that, same with BOS. It will have to be across the board, you can't say well if you are based in LGA or BOS you only rotate if you are 8 years or less. CLT/PHL is 22 years or less. In PHL don't you have a lot of flight attendants that hold a line from May-Nov? When you get your line in May, which of those months do you want to rotate into your reserve month? You don't want to give up your block for any of those months you hold it consistantly. I know I wouldn't. Once I get a block, I want to keep it.

I want to see a new reserve system as much as the next person, 16 years and counting for me. No system is going to work with the amount of reserves this company keeps in the bases. Just my opinions.

 

[Gloria Holtz]

I am not familiar with the rotating reserve system. Would it reach a 37 year f/a?

 

[FlightChic]

I have been on both reserve systems this company has had. The seniority driven system with all the advantages of passing and flying on your off days, being leveled, and calling out of time by the 20th of the month. Its not great, if you are on the bottom half of the seniority list. You didn't start to fly until the top half called out of time, they would hog every trip they could get their hands on just to get out of time. Can't blame them. We still had dead zones. The top half flew, the bottom 2 dozen lived on quick calls so they flew, the middle sat. When I first started flying I was on the bottom for 2 months so they kicked my arse flying all the time. Then a few classes graduated and went below me, I sat for the next 6 months never broke guarantee. (It was a 68 hr pay guarantee for 19 days). There was no ETB, so there was no ability to pick up any trips that paid above your pay guarantee so you could at least get some sort of paycheck. Of course we had no life because we never had a clue as to when we would be called, we had no option 18. You were at the mercy of a phone tree, someone in the next apt. building would call and say scheduling just called they have 5 trips. Then you would call 5 people to give them a heads up. Looking back at it now, its funny what we use to have to do.

I remember those days when we didn't have catcrew at home. I would just sit around, go shopping, hang out with my friends, and BAM, out of nowhere scheduling would call. I was oblivious to it all until they actually called. I remember sitting around a lot. Then other times I would be quick called. I don't know how we ever lived without screen 18. I wasn't one of the pass abusers but I remember passing a couple of times for a one day with an afternoon departure. LOL! This was in CLT too where I was one of the most junior ones! So, yeah, I never saw a one day back then! I was normally never called until right before my days off so I would work into my days off. But I lived in CLT then so it didn't matter and there was no ETB.

This LTO system isn't any better, you still have "dead zones" you still have flight attendants not breaking guarantee. The advantage of this system is at least we have some idea of what number we are to be called from daily and for future. The ability to fly ETB and have it paid above your guarantee, would of loved that 10 years ago.

The only thing that will create more blocks is time, which translates to growth or attrition neither of which this company sees enough of. I don't know that any system is going to be great. IMO you do not need 500 reserves in a base, no one will break guarantee if you have that many flight attendants on reserve regardless of what type of system you have. I agree with those saying if a rotating reserve is negotiated in a new agreement, the membership will not ratify the new contract. With the seniority in this company, you would have to say any one with 22 years or more would not have to rotate, thats nearly the entire base in LGA. They are not going to go for that, same with BOS. It will have to be across the board, you can't say well if you are based in LGA or BOS you only rotate if you are 8 years or less. CLT/PHL is 22 years or less. In PHL don't you have a lot of flight attendants that hold a line from May-Nov? When you get your line in May, which of those months do you want to rotate into your reserve month? You don't want to give up your block for any of those months you hold it consistantly. I know I wouldn't. Once I get a block, I want to keep it.

We definitely don't need 500 reserves in a base. Wait until they recall 133 more! That's all we need is more people when we're flying 30-40 hours a month. We do have a lot of f/as who hold blocks in summer and are on reserve in the winter. I guess for them it is like being on rotating reserve. They really hate being on reserve because they have had a taste of the good life. They even say how different the schedulers treat them once they are back on reserve. It isn't pretty. I just don't see why the company couldn't create more lines. We have a lot of open time. They could also create partial blocks with OPR and shifts built in to give us an idea of our schedule. I don't know whether you live in CLT but doing this LTO thing is terrible when you commute because you sit and sit and sit and at my seniority I can be quickcalled so there is no sense in me not commuting up to PHL even if I am 255 to be called. We need a balance and we need to do away with the old and the new, although I wish we could still pass. That was nice. What scares me is that we will not be growing much. We aren't hiring, we still have thousands of people on furlough, and we piss off pax everyday with our shady operations. Oh, and our stick is dropping. Ugh! We don't seem to be growing nor is there atttrition, except on the west side. They say negotiations will take another 6-10 months. Do you believe that?

I want to see a new reserve system as much as the next person, 16 years and counting for me. No system is going to work with the amount of reserves this company keeps in the bases. Just my opinions.

You shouldn't be a reserve at your seniority! Period! It's so sad.