AFA Labor Discussion (Work Conditions) 7-7 -

[Coach Cabin]

The facts is that pilots occupying the jumpseat isn't the big bad boogie man that many East FA's make it out to be. The reality of it is that they stay out of the way, make for a change in conversation companions when engaged and are more likely to buy a round of drinks next time you have a "legal" overnight with them. This appears to be an issue in which the West folks have more experience with an issue and yet you East folks seemingly won't listen.

I'm still wondering why you seemingly hate you pilots so much to deny a potentially simple kindness to them?

Uh, the f/a's loaned then some money, the pilots shook hands, promised to pay them back then reneged on the deal?

 

[nic4us]

So therefore it is a collective bargaining issue


guess we see the WEST pilot’s position

How exactly?

Tell me where in your contract to find the language regarding when the lavs will be serviced, or how cabin lighting will be used, or who is allowed in an exit row.

From a safety perspective it makes absolute sense to have an FA be the first priority to use these seats, but at the same time, makes no sense to exclude pilots, who would be the next best choice.

Guess you see my position.

If it wasn't what is the safest thing to do, then I would understand your opposition. But this is not a contractual benefit like company paid parking or triple play bonuses. This is how to safely operate the jet, don't like my position, bring it up at the next crew briefing.

 

[VAflyGal]

The facts is that pilots occupying the jumpseat isn't the big bad boogie man that many East FA's make it out to be. The reality of it is that they stay out of the way, make for a change in conversation companions when engaged and are more likely to buy a round of drinks next time you have a "legal" overnight with them. This appears to be an issue in which the West folks have more experience with an issue and yet you East folks seemingly won't listen.

I'm still wondering why you seemingly hate you pilots so much to deny a potentially simple kindness to them?

No hatred of pilots here. The issue is getting the door shut on time, early, shut shut shut shut shut shut shut the door now! There have been times where flight attendants have been denied a jumpseat because we have to shut shut shut shut shut shut the door early (not on time, EARLY) - and I have to agree with a previous poster's comments - the f/a probably wouldn't get the jumpseat if another warm body with bags stowed was already occupying said jumpseat.

That said, how do you guys feel about the company wanting a 35 / 40 minute boarding time (current West language)? READ: CONCESSION
How do the blockholders feel about having a holiday restriction? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about having to clean on all flight segments under 1000 NM? READ: CONCESSION
How do RSVs feel about having to take a 4 day trip, even if there are 3 days, 2 days, or 1 days available if "scheduling deems it necessary?" READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about daily scheduling assigning trips in inverse seniority order? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about a 6 hour OPR stint? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about splittiing from the pilots? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about PREF BID preventing you from negotiating your own schedule so trips fall off etc and you can maximize time off? READ: CONCESSION

For PHL F/A's - How do you feel about the AFA office being $30,000 + in the hole regarding the budget?
How do you feel about not getting much communication from our elected officers?
How do you feel about having given to the company, once, twice, THREE times, only to have this GARBAGE presented to us at meetings where CAROL AUSTIN herself doesn't even bother to show up?
How do you feel about them collecting 105 hours of international pay? (and PBGC and pension for some...)
How do you feel about NO RESERVES on the JNC?

Here's a little tidbit for those of you who weren't in attendance at the most recent CLT AFA meeting. Rob Wessinger (Past LECP of LGA and current PHL F/A asked Mike some very pressing and relevant questions at the meeting. Mike's wife TRIED TO CLOSE the meeting to all F/A's that weren't based in CLT. It took Rob's reading the C&B regarding the meeting being open to EVERY F/A in good standing to get them to stop their madness. How do you feel about the MECP trying to shut flight attendants out of the meetings?

Can any one of you name a few things that are coming out of this 5 year negotiation meltdown from Flores & Austin that really benefit the F/A group at large? No, seriously... I'll wait...

 

[ExPit]

The facts is that pilots occupying the jumpseat isn't the big bad boogie man that many East FA's make it out to be. The reality of it is that they stay out of the way, make for a change in conversation companions when engaged and are more likely to buy a round of drinks next time you have a "legal" overnight with them. This appears to be an issue in which the West folks have more experience with an issue and yet you East folks seemingly won't listen.

I'm still wondering why you seemingly hate you pilots so much to deny a potentially simple kindness to them?

We don't hate our East pilots at all. We're married to them, commute with them, are neighbors with them, go out for dinner on over nights with them and even fly ENTIRE trips with them.

For the most part, we have no opinion about West pilots riding West jumpseats since it does not affect us at all. It's not a part of our contract or yours (as you've all said) so it really doesn't concern us as much as compensation, vacation, sick pay, FAA rest requirements, the Me Too clause, etc do.

If once we all merge, pilots are not allowed to ride the cabin/flight attendant jumpseat, then you will survive. Our pilots have, just as we all have survived by not being allowed to ride in the cockpit/pilot jumpseat.

 

[ebwgs]

"However, I would haved thought the AFA would have wanted pilot support in their efforts."

Support for what? You get your own situation worked out. Thanks for the offer, but we don't need your support to achieve a better CBA. We need competent negotiators--not saying we don't--who negotiate the best possible deal for flight attendants.


"This does not even belong in your contract. This is a company policy issue, a Flight ops manual issue, a regulatory issue, not a flight attendant collective bargaining issue."

Excuse me, but it is not your place to say what does or does not belong in the flight attendant contract, nor is your place to say what is or isn't a flight attendant bargaining issue. If what you claim is valid, then the FAA would've stepped in long ago and voiced their concerns about j/s exclusivity. With all due respect, you've got your hands full trying to figure out your seniority status than to be telling flight attendants--whose seniority issue has long been resolved--what should or shouldn't be in our contract.

 

[ebwgs]

No hatred of pilots here. The issue is getting the door shut on time, early, shut shut shut shut shut shut shut the door now! There have been times where flight attendants have been denied a jumpseat because we have to shut shut shut shut shut shut the door early (not on time, EARLY) - and I have to agree with a previous poster's comments - the f/a probably wouldn't get the jumpseat if another warm body with bags stowed was already occupying said jumpseat.

That said, how do you guys feel about the company wanting a 35 / 40 minute boarding time (current West language)? READ: CONCESSION
How do the blockholders feel about having a holiday restriction? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about having to clean on all flight segments under 1000 NM? READ: CONCESSION
How do RSVs feel about having to take a 4 day trip, even if there are 3 days, 2 days, or 1 days available if "scheduling deems it necessary?" READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about daily scheduling assigning trips in inverse seniority order? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about a 6 hour OPR stint? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about splittiing from the pilots? READ: CONCESSION
How do you feel about PREF BID preventing you from negotiating your own schedule so trips fall off etc and you can maximize time off? READ: CONCESSION

For PHL F/A's - How do you feel about the AFA office being $30,000 + in the hole regarding the budget?
How do you feel about not getting much communication from our elected officers?
How do you feel about having given to the company, once, twice, THREE times, only to have this GARBAGE presented to us at meetings where CAROL AUSTIN herself doesn't even bother to show up?
How do you feel about them collecting 105 hours of international pay? (and PBGC and pension for some...)
How do you feel about NO RESERVES on the JNC?

Here's a little tidbit for those of you who weren't in attendance at the most recent CLT AFA meeting. Rob Wessinger (Past LECP of LGA and current PHL F/A asked Mike some very pressing and relevant questions at the meeting. Mike's wife TRIED TO CLOSE the meeting to all F/A's that weren't based in CLT. It took Rob's reading the C&B regarding the meeting being open to EVERY F/A in good standing to get them to stop their madness. How do you feel about the MECP trying to shut flight attendants out of the meetings?

Can any one of you name a few things that are coming out of this 5 year negotiation meltdown from Flores & Austin that really benefit the F/A group at large? No, seriously... I'll wait...

VA I honestly don't know enough about PBS to make an informed decision. I hear a lot of negatives about it on here, but friends at other carriers seem to like it so I don't know yet. But as for all of the other concessions you listed? It's simple enough for: We have no more to give. PERIOD.

 

[hp_fa]

No hatred of pilots here. The issue is getting the door shut on time, early, shut shut shut shut shut shut shut the door now!

Why don't you ask if **any** of the West FA's that post here have ever had a pilot riding a FA jumpseat ever really get in the way enough to hinder the FA at closeout or during taxi? Also, ask if a FA ever got left behind in favor of a pilot as long as the FA had gotten to the gate prior to the cut off for FA's to apply for the jumpseat? (The pilot is not authorized the jumpseat until the time limit for signing up has expired.)

I'll go first, I never had either of those things occur on any of my flights.

 

[nic4us]

ebwgs said,

"Excuse me, but it is not your place to say what does or does not belong in the flight attendant contract, nor is your place to say what is or isn't a flight attendant bargaining issue. If what you claim is valid, then the FAA would've stepped in long ago and voiced their concerns about j/s exclusivity. With all due respect, you've got your hands full trying to figure out your seniority status than to be telling flight attendants--whose seniority issue has long been resolved--what should or shouldn't be in our contract."

Is your seniority issue long resolved? Well then I have another question. There are formerly furloughed East flight attendants that took recall to the West. Did they recall into their system seniority position on the West, or were they added to the bottom of the seperate West list until joint ops takes effect? If they were recalled into their system seniority position, why were more senior FAs who desire PHX not allowed those positions?

Seems to me your issues are more dependent on the pilots than you care to admit.

 

[ebwgs]

Why don't you ask if **any** of the West FA's that post here have ever had a pilot riding a FA jumpseat ever really get in the way enough to hinder the FA at closeout or during taxi? Also, ask if a FA ever got left behind in favor of a pilot as long as the FA had gotten to the gate prior to the cut off for FA's to apply for the jumpseat? (The pilot is not authorized the jumpseat until the time limit for signing up has expired.)

I'll go first, I never had either of those things occur on any of my flights.

hp_fa a more appropriate question to ask would be: Is it the duty of the f/a JNC to negotiate enhancements in our contract that would benefit the pilots of US Airways? And if so would those enhancements upgrade our vacation, sick time pay and quality of life for our reserves. Does negotiating pilots enhancements in our contract enhance the life of the f/a reserve that improves their quality of life? Do those pilot enhancement offer more flexibility to flight attendants who'd rather fly a 1,2,3 day trip instead of being forced to fly a four day when trips of lesser duration are available?

I agree with you on one thing: I believe the west f/as had very little interference from your j/s pilots while performing your service, have had assistance in picking up trash and the like. That's all good. But it's a moot point because as flight attendants we're not interested in negotiating perks for pilots. They've got their own representatives for that. So let's keep our collective focus on improving the flight attendant experience here at US Airways. Pilots can always fly jumpseat on other carriers if they can't get on with us.

 

[ebwgs]

ebwgs said,

"Excuse me, but it is not your place to say what does or does not belong in the flight attendant contract, nor is your place to say what is or isn't a flight attendant bargaining issue. If what you claim is valid, then the FAA would've stepped in long ago and voiced their concerns about j/s exclusivity. With all due respect, you've got your hands full trying to figure out your seniority status than to be telling flight attendants--whose seniority issue has long been resolved--what should or shouldn't be in our contract."

Is your seniority issue long resolved? Well then I have another question. There are formerly furloughed East flight attendants that took recall to the West. Did they recall into their system seniority position on the West, or were they added to the bottom of the seperate West list until joint ops takes effect? If they were recalled into their system seniority position, why were more senior FAs who desire PHX not allowed those positions?

Seems to me your issues are more dependent on the pilots than you care to admit.
[/quote

AFA Date of Hire. Next?

 

[ebwgs]

Why don't you ask if **any** of the West FA's that post here have ever had a pilot riding a FA jumpseat ever really get in the way enough to hinder the FA at closeout or during taxi? Also, ask if a FA ever got left behind in favor of a pilot as long as the FA had gotten to the gate prior to the cut off for FA's to apply for the jumpseat? (The pilot is not authorized the jumpseat until the time limit for signing up has expired.)

I'll go first, I never had either of those things occur on any of my flights.

Waste of time asking. Were not interested in negotiating enhancements for pilots in our CBA! We're trying to negotiate f/a enhancements!

 

[nic4us]

Nic4us, Thus far I do not believe you have fundamentally changed my perspective on this issue or for that matter most of the posters' perspectives here on this topic. The fact is you you qualify your statement by saying " I am not making a threat here" . I am very curious then, what your motivation was behind your commentary of "FINAL AUTHORITY" that grants or denies the request. If that doesn't reek of threat I must certainly be missing something here. This is primarily why you will run into resistance here. This is hardly the approach most would take when trying to persuade the Flight attendants to give up their exclusivity. In addition, I do not believe the represented gate agents will want to be placed in the position to decide when and how they fill the jumpseat and we all know what happens at the gates when all the commuters are trying to get to and from work. I do agree that it is a shame that this topic has consumed some 5-6 pages and the real issues of obtaining a merged agreement seem to be going on the back burner. Thanks for the debate!!!!

Thanks for the civil tone in your post.

I was hesitent to post that comment and thought that by prefacing it with "I am not making a threat" that I might actually be taken for my word, guess I was wrong. My intention was to show that this is tied directly to the flight deck crew, is a direct responsibility and decision for the captain, and as such transcends the flight attendant CBA.

My original question has been answered. The answere is, although many seem to have a definite opinion, no posters know whether or not the AFAs official position is to deny pilots cabin jumpseat use. But, I did get Flores' e-mail address. Maybe I should try that.

 

[nic4us]

AFA Date of Hire. Next?

When were you hired by the AFA?

 

[ebwgs]

ebwgs said,

"Excuse me, but it is not your place to say what does or does not belong in the flight attendant contract, nor is your place to say what is or isn't a flight attendant bargaining issue. If what you claim is valid, then the FAA would've stepped in long ago and voiced their concerns about j/s exclusivity. With all due respect, you've got your hands full trying to figure out your seniority status than to be telling flight attendants--whose seniority issue has long been resolved--what should or shouldn't be in our contract."

Is your seniority issue long resolved? Well then I have another question. There are formerly furloughed East flight attendants that took recall to the West. Did they recall into their system seniority position on the West, or were they added to the bottom of the seperate West list until joint ops takes effect? If they were recalled into their system seniority position, why were more senior FAs who desire PHX not allowed those positions?

Why do you care?

Seems to me your issues are more dependent on the pilots than you care to admit.

Honestly i don't know the status of this special group of flight attendants you speak of. I do know however, that the AFA bylaws state that when 2 AFA carriers merge seniority is determined by DOH. SO the answer your question our seniority question has long been resolved.

 

[nic4us]

Honestly i don't know the status of this special group of flight attendants you speak of. I do know however, that the AFA bylaws state that when 2 AFA carriers merge seniority is determined by DOH. SO the answer your question our seniority question has long been resolved.

I was going to let this go, then I saw the "why do you care" inserted into the quote.

I am aware of the AFA seniority integration bylaw. But, you have not been integrated at LCC, and we are 5 years into this merger.

Why do I care? I care because It effects me and my job. It effects everything from crew interaction to inflight security. Call me selfish, but I want my job to be easier. The prolonged contract negotiations and integration does not make my job easier.

BTW, the pilot seniority has been resolved since May 2007. Come on over to the pilot labor thread and see for yourself.

Good Night.