AFA Labor Discussion (Work Conditions) 7-7 -

[Pi brat]

Hey PI, once again I'm more concerned about what the company may be taking away from the F/A group than I am concerned about--as you put it--what AFA would be taking away from the pilots. The AFA's negotiations aren't focusing on taking or giving anything away to the pilots nor should they be. The F/A negotiations are all about us flight attendants trying to negotiate a better standard of living for our workgroup, just as the travails concerning the pilots concern the standard of living that affects the pilot group only. Our SOLE purpose should be centered on our getting the best possible contract only. You have your own union to negotiate for you. If the FAA precludes flight attendants from the jumpseat then so be it. If our contract prevents pilots from riding the F/A jumpseat then so be it. I no more expect USAPA to lobby for us riding the cockpit jumpseat than USAPA should expect AFA lobbying for pilots on the F/A jumpseat via our CBA. And any absolutes dictated by other work groups as to their perks stated in the f/a CBA are out of line and have no business being seriously discussed. A flight attendant j/s should no more "absolutely be available if there is no F/A that wants it" than if there is if a cockpit seat absolutely available to a flight attendant if no pilot wants it.

The AFA should absolutely be concerned with flight attendants and I don't expect them to negotiate for me or anyone else(I don't commute anyway), but as Jim said, it's not about you getting something for me, it's about not taking something away from the west pilots. They already have it. I see no way for F/A to get cockpit jumpseat in return in this post 9/11 world, but maybe you could get something else.

I understand the idea of the AFA not negotiating for anyone else. East pilots have taken a load of crap from various mainline groups, and express pilots, for what we gave. But let me ask you this, if the company wanted to bump jumpseat riders for weight, would you like the pilots to fight for you while we fought for us?

 

[HP2USFA]

As a West FA, I have no issue what so ever with pilots taking an empty jumpseat. It's empty.

We all get so little from this company, we shouldn't be taking steps to take away even more from eachother... especially when our main arguments are 'We can't ride theirs' or 'I don't want you in my way'.

On a side note, Pi Brat, currently our West language prohibits removing jumpseaters on weight restricted flights. They're included in the aircraft ZFW.

One more reason we should keep the current West language and include the East pilots so that we can all continue to enjoy this benefit.

Cause I can just SEE the company deciding that if we're going to remove the pilots access, they can remove the inclusion of JS in the ZFW and close access on weight-restricted flights.

And for the record, every single time I've had a pilot on the JS in the back they've been amazingly helpful. I even had one go out and do a trash run for us. My only issues with folks being in the way, or worse yet taking over my galley, have been FAs. My worst experience to date was actually on a transcon with 2 commuters who basically came on and told me that they were going to sleep and the lights were staying off and they expected not to be bothered.

Good times.... good times...

 

[BoeingBoy]

What we don't need is ONE more person standing in the way (and YES they DO) during the boarding process or trying to get the service underway and having someone interfering with the process.

So you're in favor of no one being able to ride on the cabin jumpseat? Whatever your position you're entitled to have it. I just know that no employee likes it when the company adopts policies that punish the group because of the actions of a few. Do you really need to do the same to each other.

Jim

 

[ebwgs]

Hey PI the weight and balance issue you've raised is a non-issue back east because the company cannot bump a flight attendant off the jumpseat for weight and balance.

As far as taking something away from another work group, again, we have a difficult enough time trying to negotiate enhancements into our own contract let alone another workgroup's. In the next contract I suspect that there will be changes that affect the f/as of the east and west that we'll either like or dislike but that we'll nonetheless have to live with. If that fact is good enough for us, then whatever j/s changes that may affect pilots should be good enough for them to accept also. Not personal, just life. This is a flight attendant contract folks. And while we're at it, why not have mechanics, rampers, ticket agents et al on the jumpseat too. I'm much less impressed by a pilot helping to pick up trash than I would be our negotiators negotiating a contract that we all can live with and proudly stand by as a testimony to our fortitude and hard work.

And I do believe that this post is becoming hijacked by this issue.

 

[flybynite]

I don't see this as a huge problem. This an item that is in our contract under the General provisions which we are now working on currently.

Whether we tweek the west policy on pilots riding our jumpseat or agree or disagree to the policy remains to be seen. You know how the JNC keeps everything close their chest.

Take a look at the way the west does this. It's in our Policy and Procedures manual under the section for PHX/LAS f/a's only.

The way I look at it is that it's a means to help people get to work. And the pilots are the last to get a seat. They can't bump a f/a out of the seat.

The only problem I see is that the west pilots aren't qualified on the 767, E190 and 330 doors. ( I think)

 

[ebwgs]

I don't see this as a huge problem. This an item that is in our contract under the General provisions which we are now working on currently.

Whether we tweek the west policy on pilots riding our jumpseat or agree or disagree to the policy remains to be seen. You know how the JNC keeps everything close their chest.

Take a look at the way the west does this. It's in our Policy and Procedures manual under the section for PHX/LAS f/a's only.

The way I look at it is that it's a means to help people get to work. And the pilots are the last to get a seat. They can't bump a f/a out of the seat.

The only problem I see is that the west pilots aren't qualified on the 767 and 330 doors. ( I think)

It's not the responsibility of our JNC to be negotiating a means to "help people get to work" who aren't covered by the Flight Attendant CBA. We need not be expending energy on issues that don't benefit flight attendants. As I've stated before, pilots have almost universal access to flight deck jumpseats the world over. They can get to where they need to go whether it's for work or play. And good for them.

It's contract time! We need to think parochially here. If, God forbid, our negotiations break down and we have to initiate CHAOS guess what: We'll be on our own! No other group will put their tails on the line for us because we were willing to negotiate enhancements for them in our contract. And I don't expect them to!

 

[Pi brat]

As a West FA, I have no issue what so ever with pilots taking an empty jumpseat. It's empty.

We all get so little from this company, we shouldn't be taking steps to take away even more from eachother... especially when our main arguments are 'We can't ride theirs' or 'I don't want you in my way'.

On a side note, Pi Brat, currently our West language prohibits removing jumpseaters on weight restricted flights. They're included in the aircraft ZFW.

One more reason we should keep the current West language and include the East pilots so that we can all continue to enjoy this benefit.

Cause I can just SEE the company deciding that if we're going to remove the pilots access, they can remove the inclusion of JS in the ZFW and close access on weight-restricted flights.

And for the record, every single time I've had a pilot on the JS in the back they've been amazingly helpful. I even had one go out and do a trash run for us. My only issues with folks being in the way, or worse yet taking over my galley, have been FAs. My worst experience to date was actually on a transcon with 2 commuters who basically came on and told me that they were going to sleep and the lights were staying off and they expected not to be bothered.

Good times.... good times...

HP2,

It is and has been that way on the east too, but the company did try to change the language once and our union made ti clear to pilots that it applied to pilots and F/As.

 

[Pi brat]

Hey PI the weight and balance issue you've raised is a non-issue back east because the company cannot bump a flight attendant off the jumpseat for weight and balance.

I know, I didn't say they could, but the have tried to get around it form time to time right?

Not trying to hijack your thread, it was raised that the AFA was saying no, so wouldn't this be the place to discuss it.

You are entitled to your opinions. If I were a F/A I really wouldn't want them there because it is so crowded, but I wouldn't stop it.

 

[Zarah]

I know, I didn't say they could, but the have tried to get around it form time to time right?

Not trying to hijack your thread, it was raised that the AFA was saying no, so wouldn't this be the place to discuss it.

Where did the AFA say no? I haven't heard anything about this issue with regard to the new contract. Has an e-line or e-mail from the AFA been issued that says what their stance is on this?

Yesterday the gate agent was getting ready to close the door. An FA ran up and made it on the flight by the skin of her teeth. A pilot on the jumpseat and she would have been S.O.L., because to remove him would have delayed the flight so it wouldn't have happened. Apparently the theme of some of this discussion has changed into the AFA is the bad guy because they are taking something away from the WEST pilots and I have yet so even see anything from the AFA addressing this issue at all.

As for Pilots picking up trash. Please, that is not the trashy image I want people to see from our Pilots. I am an FA it is part of my job and expected of me. You want to help us out, you can help clean the plane after the passengers are off. That my friend would be appreciated!

 

[hp_fa]

We don't hate our pilots at all. Pilots have always had the option of riding the cockpit jumpseat, whether on their airline or on other carriers. Their options for getting to and from work have always been greater than flight attendants. And although there are now reciprocal jumpseat privileges on other carriers for flight atttendants, they don't offer the same total access to the F/A jumpseat as reciprocal flight deck jumpseat privileges offer to the pilots.

There are times the cockpit jumpseats are not available, such as during an unannounced FAA inspection or too many pilots trying to ride and the seats are full. The FA jumpseat goes to FA's first. That is part of the contract. However, if no FA's have signed up for the jumpseat why deny a pilot the opportunity to use it and leave him waiving bye-bye to the plane?

 

[Pi brat]

Where did the AFA say no? I haven't heard anything about this issue with regard to the new contract. Has an e-line or e-mail from the AFA been issued that says what their stance is on this?

Yesterday the gate agent was getting ready to close the door. An FA ran up and made it on the flight by the skin of her teeth. A pilot on the jumpseat and she would have been S.O.L., because to remove him would have delayed the flight so it wouldn't have happened. Apparently the theme of some of this discussion has changed into the AFA is the bad guy because they are taking something away from the WEST pilots and I have yet so even see anything from the AFA addressing this issue at all.

As for Pilots picking up trash. Please, that is not the trashy image I want people to see from our Pilots. I am an FA it is part of my job and expected of me. You want to help us out, you can help clean the plane after the passengers are off. That my friend would be appreciated!

:unsure: Sometimes I think web boards are the worst form of communication possible. Maybe I'm just a really bad communicator, I don't know, but I will try one last time to be more clear.

This started as a question to F/As about whether the AFA has proposed to the company to remove the west pilots privilege of riding a F/A jumpseat if there is not a cabin seat available and no other flight attendants want it. There was a jumpseat update from USAPA stating that was the AFA position, but it didn't go into details. My wife is a F/A and she and the other F/As I've flown with know nothing about it, and I have not spoken to any F/A that supports that stance. If any F/A does support that stance, that's their right and it's okay. I don't get it, but I don't have to. I understand frustration with other groups telling you what you should do because the pilots have gotten a lot of grief on what they have given up from other mainline groups, and from the wholly owned regional because they think we should have taken more of a stand against contract carriers. My answer to that has always been why is it our responsibility to negotiate for other groups, but this is a little different because two sets of contracts are being put together and it's already there on one side, so nobody is asking you go get something, just don't give it away.

 

[hp_fa]

Yesterday the gate agent was getting ready to close the door. An FA ran up and made it on the flight by the skin of her teeth. A pilot on the jumpseat and she would have been S.O.L., because to remove him would have delayed the flight so it wouldn't have happened.

Zarah, I don't know the current verbiage, but I believe that a jumpseater must be signed up and present at the gate 10-15 minutes before departure or they don't get to go. If the FA isn't there in time they aren't there in time and the seat is empty and why not fill it with a pilot. A FA cannot run to the door as it is being closed and get the jumpseat.

 

[flybynite]

Zarah, I don't know the current verbiage, but I believe that a jumpseater must be signed up and present at the gate 10-15 minutes before departure or they don't get to go. If the FA isn't there in time they aren't there in time and the seat is empty and why not fill it with a pilot. A FA cannot run to the door as it is being closed and get the jumpseat.

If they are signed in and the flight hasn't closed out yet, they can get the jumpseat on the east.

 

[Travelpro72]

No offense folks but when pilots are jumpseating up front how often do they linger in the galley and park their damn bag at the door or inside by the jumpseat while they give their big cowboy "Howdy" through the cockpit and talk BS for a few minutes. I have taken the bags and set them out in the jetway before. Move it buddy, I'm doing pre-departure (odd I know) and saying hello in between. If there is absolutely, positively no jumpseat f/a I see it as a way to get "one of our own" to work. Look, if we are knocked out cold during an emergency we instruct perfect strangers "APB's" to operate any given door/window. Our pilots would be perfectly capable. A pilot on the f/a jumpseat isn't taking anything away from a f/a if they aren't there. That said,if the f/a shows up RIGHT before flight closing and a pilot is on j/s would the f/a still get it? If no I'd say Hell to the NO.

 

[Onestep2flt]

You guys are loosing focus! I don't read the board for a few days as it was a holiday and now I find almost three pages on your jumpseat. I know that your jumpseat is a very important priveledge. As pointed out it is currently spelled out in your contracts differently. However, don't loose sight of the contract as a WHOLE. Who cares if you have access to the flight deck jumpseat if you don't take care of reserve issues, pay issues, scheduling issues, sick time issues, vacation issues and so on and so forth. Everyone seems to focus on only one issue at a time. If that is what you really want to do focus on the one issue that will count. That is start by putting your negotiating team on notice that it is time for them to step aside. Until you do that nothing else should be distracting you!