AFA Labor Discussion (Work Conditions) 7-7 -

[N903AW]

Waiting for section 6....just like you.

Do you believe the NMB will allow the East to go into Section 6 when your contract expires in 2011? I am asking this because when the West requested Section 6 negotiations (our contract became amendable in 2004) the NMB roadblocked our requests and said that we HAD to negotiate a joint contract.

With all due respect, don't you think they would do the same when your current contract becomes amendable?

 

[safety stud]

To truly understand your way of thinking, you must first look at what you have posted already...

You've said that:

1. You won't place a vote on a tenative... Period... regardless of what it says...
2. You aren't sure how Pref bid will effect you, or that the most senior will benefit the most from it...
3. The reserve system on the east, being so antiquated would need a complete overhaul...
4. You won't give anything up: IE the seperation from the pilot group... Regardless of how it effects you personally...

So... What exactly do you really want...
Because... quite frankly, it sounds like the same as what you have now...
Nothing different...
Unless you are willing to modify your way of thinking, accepting, and voting for or against,...
You are looking for the same...
And the same is what you will get...

Wise up people...
Change HAS to be in the mix, or you will be no better off now, than in the next 5 or 6 years...
And those on the west who have been working under a contract from last century...
And those on the east who have been working under BK concessions...
Get real... Face the music... and move on with your lives...

Just my opinion...

 

[malikie]

It can turn a 4 day into a 6 day trip.
I know most on the east have not used PBS before and something new is not well liked. If you talk with the west pilots who have been on PBS for a few years now you will find out that a six day trip is not allowed. Contractual language does not allow a pilot to build a trip longer than four days. As for the contractual language for flight attendants the company can not build trips longer than four days.So if the flight attendants would go to the PBS system you can put the fear away of having to work a six day trip.


Scheduling for the West is a rather simple exercise. It's a one-trick pony where essentially everything is a form of out-and-back.

Obvioussly you have never been into see the west scheduling department and how we operate. It is not a one trick pony and all the trips are not out and backs as you claim. Sure we only have one crew base but try recrewing a flight out in PHL, CLT, JFK, DCA, and EWR. If you look at a lot of the west pairings, especially the flight attendants, quite a few of them depart PHX and do not return until the fourth day. Not very easy to recrew when your crew base is 3000 miles away.

Next time you are in PIT you are more than welcome to come and sit with us. Just send me an e-mail and the west scheduling department will be happy to answer questions and show how things work on our side of the operation, pilot and flight attendant.

 

[Al Legheny]

It can turn a 4 day into a 6 day trip.
I know most on the east have not used PBS before and something new is not well liked. If you talk with the west pilots who have been on PBS for a few years now you will find out that a six day trip is not allowed. Contractual language does not allow a pilot to build a trip longer than four days. As for the contractual language for flight attendants the company can not build trips longer than four days.So if the flight attendants would go to the PBS system you can put the fear away of having to work a six day trip.


Scheduling for the West is a rather simple exercise. It's a one-trick pony where essentially everything is a form of out-and-back.

Obvioussly you have never been into see the west scheduling department and how we operate. It is not a one trick pony and all the trips are not out and backs as you claim. Sure we only have one crew base but try recrewing a flight out in PHL, CLT, JFK, DCA, and EWR. If you look at a lot of the west pairings, especially the flight attendants, quite a few of them depart PHX and do not return until the fourth day. Not very easy to recrew when your crew base is 3000 miles away.

Next time you are in PIT you are more than welcome to come and sit with us. Just send me an e-mail and the west scheduling department will be happy to answer questions and show how things work on our side of the operation, pilot and flight attendant.




This response reminds me of the old Robert Palmer song... Addicted to Love. You had to have been around in the 80's to remember it.

The opening line says it all. "The lights are on, but your not home, your mind is not your own."

If as a result of PBS the company builds early departure trips from CLT or PHL and if those trips happen to terminate in or after the last bank then you are screwed. You now own a non-commutable trip that requires you to travel to base the day before you originate and stay until the morning after it terminates. Hence a 4 day trip is now a 6 day trip.

I just flew a late departure out of PHX yesterday. There are no similar late departures in PHL. If you are not "Out of Dodge", ie PHL by about 8:00 pm you are screwed. If your trip comes in after that you are buying a hotel. Likewise an early origination. You are likely going to have to arrive the day before to make the check in.

You have totally missed the point. One Central point I raised in that post was, How many F/A's commute to PHX?


The consensus answer is 25 to 30% of the West F/A's commute to PHX. So if that is the case you are asking over 70% of the airlline F/A's to conform to the lifestyie of the minority West FA's that live in PHX.

The company has creadted a Nomad class of employee out East. It is not a well known fact but at it's height PIT as a crew base was larger than America West ever was. The closing of PIT was similar to the closing and relocation of you entire airline. Since then we have also closed LGA and BOS. You are totally missing the point.

Now as to the scheduling ability of Team Tempe... That is a world class joke. "Boy Wonder" Scott Kirby had to stand up in front of the employees in January and say that the company totally messed up in the Jan storm and parked crews with the clocks running and burned up all the available crews resulting in massive cancelations. They did a little better in February, but still way below par.

The Mayflower landed on Plymouth Rock on December 11, 1620. The first winter was devastating to the Pilgrims. The cold, snow and sleet was exceptionally heavy, interfering with the workers as they tried to construct their settlement. March brought warmer weather and the health of the Pilgrims improved, but many had died during the long winter. Of the 110 Pilgrims and crew who left England, less that 50 survived the first winter.

The early settlers figured out East Coast weather in a hurry, Team Tempe doesn't get it. They bought a company who's primary routes are in the worst weather section of the country. When was the last time PHX went down in Fog, A Blizzard on any other significant weather?

We out East are not at all impressed with the operational ability of West management. They are very good at marketing and finance, outstanding in fact. But after watching this management in action East employees are very wary of giving Team Tempe a blank check with regards to scheduling. The current East Pilot contract will be 60 years old next year. ALPA was recognized on the property in 1951 and 2011 will be 60 years of continous representation. Remember under the RLA contracts never expire, they are merely amended. The West agreement is from 2004 for the Pilots and I am not sure how old the FA agreement is. That is why we are wary. We have worked under an agreement that has evolved for almost 60 years and we are very wary of younsgters from the desert who claim to have the latest and greatest.

As to visiting you facility, no thanks. If you represent management or someone who wants this PBS system it is your job to sell me. I already have what I want in scheduling. You need to get out of your office and sell over 10,000 East employees F/A's and pilots that you have a better plan.

 

[Al Legheny]

Here is an update from a Washington based F/A. She is a real pal and keeps all the commuters informed of what is going on.

This on Sept. 3rd.

Hi Buddies,
C/S is once again allowing Must Rides to and from DCA today and most likely throughout the weekend.

Have a safe Labor Day!

And now today.....Sept. 4th

Now C/S is "back peddling" on Must Rides for the return trip home, as they ask for volunteers to make themselves available due to crew shortages.
Makes sense, right?
Proceed with caution. . .

Good luck all!

So, I am supposed to give these guys a blank check???? Yeah right!!

 

[HP2USFA]

One of the major selling points of PBS for me was the fact that the company no longer builds the lines. I have complete control of my schedule within my seniority. If I can hold it and I want it I get it and vice-versa.

Now as for actual trip construction, I.e. what flight goes where when and into what trip to make what line, that job currently is Ed Bular's... he's an east pilot and he currently oversees everything related to inflight scheduling. Food for thought for the team tempe phobic.

Even as reserves we will have a great amount of flexibility that is much needed. The ability to decide daily what it is you want to do. Build your own line... how is any of that a step back? Why would anyone not want to build their own schedule instead of picking the line they hate least?

The new system would be setup to allow those who want to work more to do so and those who don't, to not.

I think I read a message here saying that lines would be capped at 110 hours, but that was only on the initial bid... there would be no cap on trips picked up thru trades just like today on the west.

 

[Al Legheny]

One of the major selling points of PBS for me was the fact that the company no longer builds the lines. I have complete control of my schedule within my seniority. If I can hold it and I want it I get it and vice-versa.

Now as for actual trip construction, I.e. what flight goes where when and into what trip to make what line, that job currently is Ed Bular's... he's an east pilot and he currently oversees everything related to inflight scheduling. Food for thought for the team tempe phobic.

Even as reserves we will have a great amount of flexibility that is much needed. The ability to decide daily what it is you want to do. Build your own line... how is any of that a step back? Why would anyone not want to build their own schedule instead of picking the line they hate least?

The new system would be setup to allow those who want to work more to do so and those who don't, to not.

I think I read a message here saying that lines would be capped at 110 hours, but that was only on the initial bid... there would be no cap on trips picked up thru trades just like today on the west.

"Oh dear My dear"....You misapprehend a great truth.

On the East the COMPANY DOES NOT BUILD THE LINES! The lines are built by the USAPA scheduling commitee, formerly the ALPA scheduling committee. This has been going on for longer than I have been here and that is approaching 25 years. The company builds the trips and the Union builds the lines.

An ALPA study done many years ago found that the scheduling commitee had become so good that almost everyone who bid with some reasonable consideration of their seniority would have a highg probability of getting their 4 choice as a last result. It means the commitee had a very good idea of what the pilots wanted and that there was something for everyone.

The East flight attendants bid the same block numbers as the pilots. In this methodology the employees of this company have more control of their schedule than at almost any airline. Our fellow employess make the monthly schedules and we let the company build the trips.

If you add to this the "mee-too" clause and all the many benefits that accrue from it you have a powerful combination.

I would say to any flight attendant, don't sign off on any contract TA until the FAA puts out the new rest rules. You need to see what you will be giving up. This mad charge by some to get a deal when they can't even give the membership a coherent response to what the deal is smells bad.

If PBS is so great you need to have major road shows to explain why it is. Out East you will be looking at Flight Attendants who have some of the best scheduling contractual language in the industry and a me too clause that guarantees improvements and you guys are selling snake oil. You say you like because it works in Phoenix.

Only 25% to 40% of Phoenix commutes. In the East the estimation is now closer to 70%.
The company and the union have not been forthcomming in explaining this system and they will have to before East crew members will sign off on any changes.

 

[Al Legheny]

One of the major selling points of PBS for me was the fact that the company no longer builds the lines. I have complete control of my schedule within my seniority. If I can hold it and I want it I get it and vice-versa.

Now as for actual trip construction, I.e. what flight goes where when and into what trip to make what line, that job currently is Ed Bular's... he's an east pilot and he currently oversees everything related to inflight scheduling. Food for thought for the team tempe phobic.

Even as reserves we will have a great amount of flexibility that is much needed. The ability to decide daily what it is you want to do. Build your own line... how is any of that a step back? Why would anyone not want to build their own schedule instead of picking the line they hate least?

The new system would be setup to allow those who want to work more to do so and those who don't, to not.

I think I read a message here saying that lines would be capped at 110 hours, but that was only on the initial bid... there would be no cap on trips picked up thru trades just like today on the west.

"Oh dear My dear"....You misapprehend a great truth.

On the East the COMPANY DOES NOT BUILD THE LINES! The lines are built by the USAPA scheduling commitee, formerly the ALPA scheduling committee. This has been going on for longer than I have been here and that is approaching 25 years. The company builds the trips and the Union builds the lines.

An ALPA study done many years ago found that the scheduling commitee had become so good that almost everyone who bid with some reasonable consideration of their seniority would have a highg probability of getting their 4 choice as a last result. It means the commitee had a very good idea of what the pilots wanted and that there was something for everyone.

The East flight attendants bid the same block numbers as the pilots. In this methodology the employees of this company have more control of their schedule than at almost any airline. Our fellow employess make the monthly schedules and we let the company build the trips.

If you add to this the "mee-too" clause and all the many benefits that accrue from it you have a powerful combination.

I would say to any flight attendant, don't sign off on any contract TA until the FAA puts out the new rest rules. You need to see what you will be giving up. This mad charge by some to get a deal when they can't even give the membership a coherent response to what the deal is smells bad.

If PBS is so great you need to have major road shows to explain why it is. Out East you will be looking at Flight Attendants who have some of the best scheduling contractual language in the industry and a me too clause that guarantees improvements and you guys are selling snake oil. You say you like because it works in Phoenix.

Only 25% to 40% of Phoenix commutes. In the East the estimation is now closer to 70%.
The company and the union have not been forthcomming in explaining this system and they will have to before East crew members will sign off on any changes.

 

[HP2USFA]

With PBS, no one but YOU builds your line.

No scheduling committee, no company stooge, YOU and YOU alone.

With PBS you tell the system how much you want to work and on what days and times. You tell it I want a trip that lays over in ORD for 20+ hours, if it's available you get it. You tell the system on this day I want to be in this place, it builds it. You tell it that you only want to work trips that check in at 3:00pm on Tuesdays, it builds it.

You control everything with PBS. Everything becomes seniority based and in the complete hands of the employee.

You would think a system that further empowers seniority would be a definate good thing to you folks.

As a reserve, I love working Hot Shifts (ready reserve I believe it's called on the East). That's where you sit at the airport for x number of hours ready to go somewhere. With the proposed PBS system I'll be able to choose to work any available hot shifts needed during the month if I choose to do so. And I can make those choices DAILY with the PBS system... hourly if I want to. Again, all based on seniority.

It works if you're able to de-stigmatize yourself enough to take a honest look at it. Nothing is going to look good if you only look at it by what it can't or won't do instead of what it can and will do. It's change, I realize it's difficult, but it's not inherently bad.

 

[ExPit]

**With PBS you tell the system how much you want to work and on what days and times. You tell it I want a trip that lays over in ORD for 20+ hours, if it's available you get it. You tell the system on this day I want to be in this place, it builds it. You tell it that you only want to work trips that check in at 3:00pm on Tuesdays, it builds it.**

How do we know "what" is available? If I want all PIT overnights, how do I find out how long they are, so I would know how to bid? Or does the PBS really give me the 16 hour PIT layover while the other crew members get 10 or 11 hours in PIT?" Most likely, my seniority will not hold anything close to what I want. I only have 26 years, which is nothing if you commute from PIT.


As a reserve, I love working Hot Shifts (ready reserve I believe it's called on the East)

. We have no "ready reserve" position. We do have on premise reserves (OPR) that sit at the airport to be ready for boarding duty or to cover a last minute open position on a trip.

 

[HP2USFA]

Currently, on the West, we have the ability to view and construct our bids on the Flica website. Flica is also the company we get the Maestro client from (our version of CatCrew).

On the Flica website there is an entire copy of the paper bid available as well as a nifty web-based sorting program that allows us a sort of preview as to how our bid construction process would function (DISCLAIMER: IN NO FASHION AM I STATING THIS IS IN ANY WAY HOW IT WILL ACTUALLY FUNCTION OR LOOK... JUST THAT THE PROCESS OF DEFINING PERAMETERS FOR PERSONALIZE BID CONSTRUCION WOULD LOOK LIKE).

Currently we can specify specific days on or off, RON cities, RON durations, etc. The process as it was explained to us was more geared towards you telling the system what it was that you wanted and it creating it rather than you seeing whats available and bidding on it. You're still thinking old school in that the PBS system lets you bid on pairings already constructed when in fact there are no pairings built until you tell it to build it. There will obviously be lines available and those can be viewed in the system similar to how they are today. There's a great deal of current East functionality built into the proposed system with tweaks for functionality and improvements.

OPR is the accronym I was looking for! It's still called that in the proposed CBA. Thanks for the clarification! There's so many new codes to remember... People already look at me funny when we're using them in public... gonna be even worse now!

 

[BoeingBoy]

You're still thinking old school in that the PBS system lets you bid on pairings already constructed when in fact there are no pairings built until you tell it to build it. There will obviously be lines available and those can be viewed in the system similar to how they are today.

These two sentences appear to be contradictory. How do you have pre-built lines available if the trips aren't built until you build bid them through PBS? As far as the PBS building trips to each FA's preferences, I find it hard to believe that the company would open themselves to the possibility of many trips paying more in duty rigs than in hard time - which could happen if trips are built to the FA's preferences.

Of course, trips built to FA's PBS preferences also means that each FA in a crew could (and likely would) be flying a different trip with one getting off for a layover at A, another at B, etc. So not only would the FA not stay with the pilots but would most likely not stay together as a FA crew.

Jim

 

[cactusgirl]

One of the major selling points of PBS for me was the fact that the company no longer builds the lines. I have complete control of my schedule within my seniority. If I can hold it and I want it I get it and vice-versa.

Now as for actual trip construction, I.e. what flight goes where when and into what trip to make what line, that job currently is Ed Bular's... he's an east pilot and he currently oversees everything related to inflight scheduling. Food for thought for the team tempe phobic.

Even as reserves we will have a great amount of flexibility that is much needed. The ability to decide daily what it is you want to do. Build your own line... how is any of that a step back? Why would anyone not want to build their own schedule instead of picking the line they hate least?

The new system would be setup to allow those who want to work more to do so and those who don't, to not.

I think I read a message here saying that lines would be capped at 110 hours, but that was only on the initial bid... there would be no cap on trips picked up thru trades just like today on the west.

Allowing to build lines to 110 will mean people holding lines before PBS will now be on reserve...those on reserve will be on the street. PBS will result in furloughs....and I'm not the only one that thinks that...there was a big discussion about it between some east FA's when I was in the PHL crew room about a week ago.

What are our west negotiators smoking? I like the fact that now, if a trip or a flight cancels I get guaranteed that time. With the new scheduling section. I do not. Lisa and Deb gave away our GT on flight/trip cancellations. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! :angry: I wonder what else those two are going to give away? I shudder to think.

With all due respect, go sell your product somewhere else. Those of us on here ain't buying it!

 

[beachboy]

With all due respect, go sell your product somewhere else. Those of us on here ain't buying it!

I hate to burst the bubble but Pref Bid will happen. It's already in the East contract we have now, just never implemented since AFA and the Company never agreed on the vendor. Going to Pref Bid is like saying you are going to buy a car. Well there is a huge difference between a Yugo and a BMW. Pref bid is all about the program and I can only hope they negotiate what parameters they put in the program wisely. MF told everyone there would be a headcount reduction with Pref Bid only to at the CLT meeting last week state it would not. No one knows what to think.

 

[cactusgirl]

Oh, I know PBS will be in the TA, my point is don't come here telling me how great it's going to be when we don't even have the full picture. We ALL know that the only version of PBS the sand castle people will buy is the Yugo version. Outside of PBS, I think that there are things that will make this TA a hard sell and they're not even done with scheduling and lots of us have concerns. Don't get me going on reserve.

MF told everyone there would be a headcount reduction with Pref Bid only to at the CLT meeting last week state it would not. No one knows what to think.

RED FLAG when they are wishy-washy. I guarantee this 110 cap WILL result in a headcount reduction and the people negotiating this (both east and west) are senior enough that they won't be affected. If they are going to sell this crap then they better da*n well tell us what we are buying.


FYI, the in the west preview they gave us "feedback" sheets. One thing they wanted feedback on was the 25/45. How long have you guys had that in your contract? I'm just wondering if it was something you got in concessions or that you've had all along. Not that it matters, I just like to be informed.