Accept Contract or Authorize a Strike

[Birdman]

And the idea of everyone being forced by coworkers to all bring their ballots and vote in public is the most anti-democratic thing I have ever seen.
I, for one, will not be forced or put on the spot to do such a thing.

I never suggested anybody was being "forced" to bring in their ballots. I simply believe if I am going to divulge how I voted I should be willing to prove it.

 

[TWU informer]

Vote NO, thats a start. Didnt the Mechs at NWA vote NO to the IAMs last proposal back in 98 or 99?

I have voted NO on every contract since I became employed at AA in 1983. Has not worked yet.

Is greed and selfishness something new? The Spirit Pilots just had a successful strike. Our FAs appear to be pretty solid. Are their members different from the rest of society or are their unions structured and lead differently?

Pilots and Flight Attendant professions are not laced with proven scabs. IAM at Alaska Air and AMFA at NWA were overran with AMT Scabs. I cannot think of an instance where Pilots or Flight Attendants had a union busted due to scabs within their profession.

Our whole structure is divisive, in the end the membership has tolerated this, we need for the members to send the message that they will tolerate this No longer.

Better come with a solid plan to send this message, the membership tolerates this because one group is always bought off to screw the other group. That isn't going to change. For the first time ever, I am in a small minority group being given the carrot. After being the victim of others taking the carrot and screwing me in the past, I am not feeling guilty at all about "I got mine Brother".

I realize that you have put a lot of yourself into fighting the inadequadacies of the Labor Movement but is siding with the International with a YES vote really the answer?

A yes or no vote on this T/A will never begin to correct the inadequadcies within the labor movement.
If the line AMT's were offered $45 per hour to outsource O/H you couldn't stop the stampede for a yes vote,
Just as I know they would vote yes when "they've got theirs brother", I feel the same on this T/A. You know as well I do what the answer to this problem is and it damn sure ins't a simple choice of siding with or against the International on this T/A.

And just as a YES vote siding with the International is not the answer. For sure, authorizing a potential strike with known AMT scabs lurking in the streets is not my idea of a good gamble and wont fix squat. Everytime I hear one of the mantras about this being a "Fight for the Profession", I roll in the floor laughing. How many times must a large group of workers suffer at the hands of scabs crossing picket lines and busting up a strike in this profession before you guys wake and see the truth for what it is?

When was the last succesful strike within the AMT Commercial Passenger Aviation Profession anyway? All I remember is the failed Eastern IAM Strike, the failed Alaska Air IAM Strike, and the failed Northwest AMFA strike, I am not even sure the 1968 TWU/AA strike would be classified as a success.

 

[Birdman]

You guys are talking out your arses. You have no quality information to back up what you are saying. DFW has NEVER voted down any agreement and I predict (although I have no data other then 24 years of history) DFW will pass this one too. I have witnessed over the years that people talk smack and then vote it in, then talk smack about the thing. Go out there and try to find anyone that voted for the concessions, but it blew through like the wind on a Midwestern plain.

As I told Hopeful, I won't be talking smack. I will prove how I voted and will not berate anyone who votes differently. I will also admit I voted FOR the 1995 contract. Part was selfishness, as I would "top out" in 1996, and part was my belief that it was reasonable to pay less for jobs requiring less skill and responsibility, i.e. SRP program. I am opposed to further classification divisions and concessions and will vote no in front of witnessed to prove it.

 

[Bob Owens]

I have voted NO on every contract since I became employed at AA in 1983. Has not worked yet.

Our real pay and benifits were never this bad before. How will a yes vote work?

Pilots and Flight Attendant professions are not laced with proven scabs. IAM at Alaska Air and AMFA at NWA were overran with AMT Scabs. I cannot think of an instance where Pilots or Flight Attendants had a union busted due to scabs within their profession.

You dont work the line. Come to the line for a while and I'll point out the FA scabs, they are easy to spot, to this day they stay alone. Scabs also were brought in at TWA and UAL when they had their FA strikes. I'm not too familiar with what happened at Alaska Air but we all know that what NWA did in 2005 AA couldnt do now. Over 90% of our recalls said NO, we just had one of our TCCs quit a few weeks back and the company denied the VBR because they admitted they could not afford to lose any mechanics on the line.

Better come with a solid plan to send this message, the membership tolerates this because one group is always bought off to screw the other group. That isn't going to change. For the first time ever, I am in a small minority group being given the carrot. After being the victim of others taking the carrot and screwing me in the past, I am not feeling guilty at all about "I got mine Brother".

Is it a carrott or is it that you arent being screwed as much as the next guy? How does your 2010 pay after the raise compare to your 2003 pay before the concessions-all inclusive (Holidays, Vacation, sick time, IOD etc)? Can you really say you are getting yours are at best will you be able to say "I didnt get it as bad as you did Brother?"

A yes or no vote on this T/A will never begin to correct the inadequadcies within the labor movement.

A yes vote certainly wont, a NO vote is a first step, whether we take the next step is up for debate.

If the line AMT's were offered $45 per hour to outsource O/H you couldn't stop the stampede for a yes vote,
Just as I know they would vote yes when "they've got theirs brother", I feel the same on this T/A. You know as well I do what the answer to this problem is and it damn sure ins't a simple choice of siding with or against the International on this T/A.

How do you figure that would pass? What makes you think that they want to spin off OH? That gets thrown out just to keep you guys in line, they do the same to us, "If our performance doesnt improve we are going to close the station", "Go ahead " is our reply, recently they announced they are adding more work.

And just as a YES vote siding with the International is not the answer. For sure, authorizing a potential strike with known AMT scabs lurking in the streets is not my idea of a good gamble and wont fix squat. Everytime I hear one of the mantras about this being a "Fight for the Profession", I roll in the floor laughing. How many times must a large group of workers suffer at the hands of scabs crossing picket lines and busting up a strike in this profession before you guys wake and see the truth for what it is?

Known scabs? If most of the people who have recall rights, time invested, are saying NO to recall what makes you think they have thousands of scabs out there? This industry isnt that big, if the company was training these guys to use our manuals and follow our proceedures we would have heard about it plus with the FAA all over the company as it is do you think AA is likely to try and flush out the experienced guys with scabs?

When was the last succesful strike within the AMT Commercial Passenger Aviation Profession anyway? All I remember is the failed Eastern IAM Strike, the failed Alaska Air IAM Strike, and the failed Northwest AMFA strike, I am not even sure the 1968 TWU/AA strike would be classified as a success.

Well the last successful negotiations was 2000 to 2001 when we (M&R across the industry) saw bigger increases than just about any other classification in the industry. Now our wages are twice as depressed as they were then.

 

[TWU informer]

I remember reading the NWA Thread during their negotiations. No matter what point was made about the potential that a strike could occur and scabs could replace them, many ignored every possible fact and believed it couldnt happen to them. Over and Over the facts were ignored and those leaders destroyed many lives financially.

I watched the Eastern Airlines video Collision Course and same mentality lead them to complete failure and once again many lives shattered while some fought for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Some posting on here will never accept that the AMT profession has failed miserably when engaged in battle against an airline. Be it because of AMT Scabs or just flat company hard line to shut the place down, the end result was far more negative than the alternative given or offered to the work group prior to failure.

I am not going to argue with folks that still believe restoring pay and benefits to pre-2003 restructuring levels without major negative impact on the work group is possible. Since then other Airlines filed for Bankruptcy and gutted retirements and benefits. Yet, some posting here will not accept that fact for consideration regardless of how may times the facts are presented.

The Turbine Engine Overhaul Building is full of workers producing parts. Each and every part already has a supplied vendor to do the work and a price is already negotiated. Every single part can be outsourced easlily. It doesnt take a man to man swap during a strike or work stoppage to keep the enignes in flight, all it takes some Stock Clerks to ship the parts out and a few inspectors to receive them in. Alot of this already happening without a work dispute.The TWU still has a Presidential Grievance pending against AA for their beyond a doubt proving that CFM-56 enignes could be outsourced for 100% overhaul. To date that grievance has obtained nothing for those impacted negatively by that action. And that was even with a scope clause in full force.

I refuse to follow a leader that holds a position of AMT's facing unlikely replacement while he leads those of us that can replaced easily into a no win batlle against scabs or corporate hard line battle. I damn sure wont waste anymore time argueing with such leaders either. All that happens is my postion gets hardened further.

Everybody has their eye on some goal. Mine is to stay emplyed and make it to retirement. I went over and worked part time for a vendor doing AA outsourced work to supplement extra income at $18.00 per hour no benefits. I damn sure dont want that to be my next full time job between now and age 60 because someone failed to recognize that history regarding AMT's against corporations in this industry engaged in labor disputes is not favorable to positive outcome. I honestly have no interest in helping those that seem ot have a goal that we risk everything we have worked for to attempt to save a profession full of known scabs. A profession that obviously doesnt want to save itself because of greed and ignorance.

 

[Interested]

What makes you think that they want to spin off OH?

I've been reading this thread with some interest. What do you think about this? AA throws Allegiant Airlines out claiming they "don't" have the space for them anymore. That leads me to believe AA doesn't really want MRO work at the overhaul level. Next they move MOC to Texas, next they take the 777 overhauls away from TULE and leave just a small mod line. I believe that is the first three baby steps in closing TULE.

 

[Rogallo]

I've been reading this thread with some interest. What do you think about this? AA throws Allegiant Airlines out claiming they "don't" have the space for them anymore. That leads me to believe AA doesn't really want MRO work at the overhaul level. Next they move MOC to Texas, next they take the 777 overhauls away from TULE and leave just a small mod line. I believe that is the first three baby steps in closing TULE.

Yup

 

[robbedagain]

Good luck with your voting. I hoipe that it all turns out better than expected Good Luck to All AA personell

 

[TWU informer]

Wage Opener

Q. The wage opener provision is to ensure each classification (Title I AMT Midnight Shift and Title II Plant Maintenance Mechanic) maintain their current standing at the new rates. What takes place if another one of the comparators surpasses one of the classifications in compensation?

A. If a comparator surpasses the Line Mechanic or Plant Maintenance Mechanic with respect to relative standing during the life of the agreement, it triggers the opportunity for the TWU to open negotiations on wages, with the intent to make any necessary adjustment to restore the original standing.

Q. When the wage opener provision is executed and the two classifications’ compensation is adjusted to maintain standing, what happens to all other classifications in Title I and Title II?

A. For the Base AMT and the Base Title II Plant Maintenance mechanic, the chart rate will be adjusted the same as the Line AMT and Line Title II Mechanic. For the other classifications, the adjustment made will be equivalent to the percentage increase provided to Line AMT or Line Title II mechanic to restore the standing. Example: If the Line AMT chart rate was adjusted by 1.5%, then the other classifications within Title I would receive a 1.5% increase to the chart rates.

Q. Could the company prevent or not agree to wage adjustments after a comparator surpassed a Line AMT or a Line Plant Maintenance Mechanic?

A. If a comparator surpasses the AA rate during the life of the agreement, then the TWU will trigger the right to open on wages, with the intent to adjust the wage accordingly.

 

[Birdman]

I've been reading this thread with some interest. What do you think about this? AA throws Allegiant Airlines out claiming they "don't" have the space for them anymore. That leads me to believe AA doesn't really want MRO work at the overhaul level. Next they move MOC to Texas, next they take the 777 overhauls away from TULE and leave just a small mod line. I believe that is the first three baby steps in closing TULE.

AA finally grew weary of subsidizing Allegiant's maintenance program. We are not lean enough in Tule to make a profit at MRO. As to leaving a small mod line, if you consider 4 simultaneous 737 retrofits with 2 also performing light C's, 757 heavy's, 767/757 pylons/757 maui, a 737 special visit line, engine work out the wazzoo, and just shy of a $2,000,000 modification to a hangar door a sign of a base shutdown, you might want fire your oracle.

 

[Bob Owens]

Wage Opener

Q. The wage opener provision is to ensure each classification (Title I AMT Midnight Shift and Title II Plant Maintenance Mechanic) maintain their current standing at the new rates. What takes place if another one of the comparators surpasses one of the classifications in compensation?

A. If a comparator surpasses the Line Mechanic or Plant Maintenance Mechanic with respect to relative standing during the life of the agreement, it triggers the opportunity for the TWU to open negotiations on wages, with the intent to make any necessary adjustment to restore the original standing.

Q. When the wage opener provision is executed and the two classifications’ compensation is adjusted to maintain standing, what happens to all other classifications in Title I and Title II?

A. For the Base AMT and the Base Title II Plant Maintenance mechanic, the chart rate will be adjusted the same as the Line AMT and Line Title II Mechanic. For the other classifications, the adjustment made will be equivalent to the percentage increase provided to Line AMT or Line Title II mechanic to restore the standing. Example: If the Line AMT chart rate was adjusted by 1.5%, then the other classifications within Title I would receive a 1.5% increase to the chart rates.

Q. Could the company prevent or not agree to wage adjustments after a comparator surpassed a Line AMT or a Line Plant Maintenance Mechanic?

A. If a comparator surpasses the AA rate during the life of the agreement, then the TWU will trigger the right to open on wages, with the intent to adjust the wage accordingly.

Thats your point?

The key words are "opportunity to open negotiations on wages". In other words it means nothing so the rest is irelevant. The dispatchers opened negotaitions with the early opener in 2006, they still dont have a TA.

 

[TWU informer]

Thats your point?

The key words are "opportunity to open negotiations on wages". In other words it means nothing so the rest is irelevant. The dispatchers opened negotaitions with the early opener in 2006, they still dont have a TA.

Bob were you at the negotiations? Or does letter not really mean what is says? The way I read this letter, is that both sides agree is to ensure compensation standing. Not early open to stall and negotiate as you claim to know will happen.

ATTACHEMENT 47.1 - Wage Adjustment Provision (“Wage Opener”)

Snip

In the event workers at comparable airlines (WN, FL, DL, B6, CO, UA, US) amend their collective bargaining agreements, prior to the amendable date of this agreement, and these amendments lower the current standing in compensation of the TWU classifications listed above, the TWU will notify the company in writing of its intent to ‘open’ compensation negotiations limited to the following areas:
Chart Rate or Base rate
License/skill premiums
Line premiums
Longevity Pay
Weekend Premiums Midnight retention premiums All other shift premiums

It is understood between the parties that the purpose of this ‘wage adjustment’ provision is to ensure that the TWU classifications mentioned above, maintain their compensation standing with the industry comparators up until the amendable date of this agreement. In addition, it is intended to provide a percentage based form of internal equity for all other classifications, within the respective Title Group, covered by the AA/TWU Mechanic and Related agreement.

 

[TWU informer]

Q. Could the company prevent or not agree to wage adjustments after a comparator surpassed a Line AMT or a Line Plant Maintenance Mechanic?

A. If a comparator surpasses the AA rate during the life of the agreement, then the TWU will trigger the right to open on wages, with the intent to adjust the wage accordingly.

Pretty stratight forward to me. Even if the sinister company stalls as Bob Ownes claims, a grievance could be filed and an Arbitrator will hear the case. Without question the intent is to raise the compensation to maintain industry position.

At least the TWU admits that other unions my be better at negotiations and therefore piggy backed their capabilities. Too bad those unions are not collecting our dues for representing us.

 

[Bob Owens]

I remember reading the NWA Thread during their negotiations. No matter what point was made about the potential that a strike could occur and scabs could replace them, many ignored every possible fact and believed it couldnt happen to them. Over and Over the facts were ignored and those leaders destroyed many lives financially.

I watched the Eastern Airlines video Collision Course and same mentality lead them to complete failure and once again many lives shattered while some fought for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Well if Tulsa went on strike by itself then I would agree, it would probably be a bloodbath. But Tulsa would not be going on strike by itself. We have often sparred over this point where I've said that Tulsa holds the electoral power but the line has the economic power. Yes we have seen failures, we have also seen sucesses, a success is making the gains without a strike, like we all saw in 2001, but the threat was there. Mechanics at NWA and UAL(?) had to vote NO and express a willingness to strike before they actually made the gains they did, shortlived as they turned out to be. Without a doubt we benifited from the actions of our brothers at NWA. As far as the failures, this isnt 2005, or 1989. Our real wages have declined by around 40% since then and our benifits have been slashed as well.

Our wages are no longer a magnet for scabs, skilled workers are still in demand and we lose middle aged workers on a regular basis, something that has never been seen before. Many already treat AA as their part time job. The lack of committment shows up as delays and cancellations. AA consistantly ranks near the bottom of the industry. This contract would not change morale on the line, it would probably go even lower.

The company has already acknowledged that they are not happy with the lines performance, this was their first offer since the change in administration(Ream). I think they were shocked that Don got it through without even a counter.

The guys at EAL werent fighting for a pot of Gold, yes what the company was offering then is probably better than what we are getting now but the fact is that I havent heard one EAL guy say that they felt they made the wrong decision at EAL, they have said that we have made several wrong decisions since. They all, to a man, say that their lives turned out better than if they would have submitted to Lorenzos demands.

Some posting on here will never accept that the AMT profession has failed miserably when engaged in battle against an airline. Be it because of AMT Scabs or just flat company hard line to shut the place down, the end result was far more negative than the alternative given or offered to the work group prior to failure.

Really? Are you aware of what NWA was offering? You are basically saying that if the company wanted to get rid of OH that the Line should vote YES.

It seems you have your mind made up. You feel you arent getting screwed as much as the next guy so its ok by you, you use your accusation that everyone else is Greedy and selfish to justify doing what you know isnt the right thing to do. As much as we have sparred over the years I thought you were more than that. Good luck.

 

[TWU informer]

Simply think about the NWA Strike - Overhaul was not on strike by itself, Scabs committed a stampede at the picket line and the ecoomic power of the line AMT was blasted away as useless. That is fact and you know it.

I am not saying that if the company offered $45 to get rid of overhaul that the line AMT SHOULD vote YES, I am saying they WOULD VOTE YES.

The current wages at AA may not be a magnet for a SCAB but at NWA they offered a higher wage with no benefits and the scabs came running across the picket line.

You are using the philosophy that because recalls say no to current pay/benefits a scab would say no. I am saying the payscale offer would change once a scab is requested just as what happened at NWA and the AMT Scabs would again appear out of nowhere.

It is true I have made up my mind, and that is based on postings I see here give me a gut feeling that I do not trust you, any line AMT, or any O/H AMT in a game of self sacrifice to save the other guy. You do personally make statements contrary to this judgement but the challenge has not played out yet and talk is cheap. Just as you know the overhaul AMT for years has taken theirs you to would also take yours. Regardless of your personal opinion I belive that to be a fact and words and debate will never prove out who is correct. I really don't want to find out the truth on that myself by living the test bed when the current agreement as you say doesnt screw me as bad as others. I know for a fact that you personally have blamed Tulsa for your inadequate financial position and you also would be more than willing to accept a union structure that would go against majority rule representation if this would put you and your members in a more powerful economic position.