AAnegotiations.com

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

You are forgetting that at NWA the other unions on the property stepped up and helped the company bust AMFA.

No, I didn't forget. I was asking/wondering whether AA unions are in solidarity, or will one not hesitate to stab the other(s) in the back? Will solidarity prevail or will it be every person/union for themself?

NWA had to reduce frequencies and in the end they never recovered and were bought out by Delta.

Granted NW somewhat struggled, initially, but then they were able to meet the FAA minimum for the next 3 or so years until the deal with DL.

As far as the quality of mechanics available today being "far higher" what do you base that on?

I'm thinking that with the economy in the crapper, there is a larger pool of unemployed person to choose from to find replacement workers - not just mechanics, but also bag smashers, FAs, pilots, agents, etc. Ofcourse they have to be trained etc., but it can be done.

All I'm saying is that just like a good strike can make any company operation come to a screeching halt, any decent management team should be able to find replacemnts in this economy. I won't even mention how much of a help a chapter 11 re-organization would be to accopmlish this.

The odds always were and always will be stacked against us but the plain truth is we have less than ever to lose. AA has taken the position that they are only willing to make things worse, I cant accept that and I'm willing to kill the company if thats the only option they present. We would be better off to do that, just like the EAL workers did in the 90s, than to accept a future of continued degredation. Its their choice to make.

I think y'all made (or took) a very tough decision in 2003 with the concessions. It showed AA management what can be accomplished without a chapter 11 filing, which they can save for a rainy day. This is one reason why I think something similar to a UAW-style union set-up in the airlines could have been effective?

 

[Tbag]

According to Bob Owens' suspect math, mechanics have suffered a 40% paycut. The APFA truth-stretchers I quoted yesterday in the Pretend Strikes thread are falsely claiming that they gave up 33%. Pilots have claimed that they gave up about 50%.

To be made whole (get back to 100%), the mechanics would need a 67% raise, the APFA would need a 50% raise and the pilots would need (and have demanded) a 100% raise.

Against that backdrop, I'm willing to bet that Arpey and Co. would gladly suffer a crippling shutdown once everyone is released and their cooling off periods end. Likely result? Ch 11 filing with even more concessions, two or three hundred mainline fleet reduction and another 30k furloughed. Arpey's probably thinking "Bring it on."

Word from AA Psy Ops is that they are painting lines for high density aircraft parking at the DFW hangers.

 

[Tbag]

We are really watching a simple Little/AA strategy unfold that will lead to a sub-standard agreement via "binding arbitration".

Both management and the company union will then be able to blame the arbitrator for the lowly outcome.

Not a bad strategy when you are incompetent management, and a lap dog union.

We should charter our own organization and fire the TWU.

 

[The Goose]

... snip
I think y'all made (or took) a very tough decision in 2003 with the concessions. It showed AA management what can be accomplished without a chapter 11 filing, which they can save for a rainy day. This is one reason why I think something similar to a UAW-style union set-up in the airlines could have been effective?

Stop and think - only the heads of the unions and the company were together on this mess. Everyone else was lied to and decided it would be a good idea. It won't be so easy to lie the second time.

The Chapter 11 filing you're referencing was kinda modified after the rule change of 31 October 2005. While Chapter 11 still favors the filing company, it's not so great as it once was. Take note of how many large companies have filed since that date - damned few, and for good reason. They don't get the favorable treatment they once did. Consequently, there will be no Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Filing. AMR's board and executive cabal is in no mood to lose control of their gravy train.

AMR can go to hell. While others may well pass whatever contract is out there, I'm not voting yes until it's a "Restore and More" contract. I'd have been more reasonable but I was lied to as were many others. I take that quite personally as should everyone.

I want my pound of company flesh. If I end up working elsewhere, so be it.

 

[DallasConehead]

All I'm saying is that just like a good strike can make any company operation come to a screeching halt, any decent management team should be able to find replacemnts in this economy. I won't even mention how much of a help a chapter 11 re-organization would be to accopmlish this.

The possibility of replacement workers is gone. When you factor in DOT testing, TSA background checks, getting them on the property and up to speed on the fleets. IMO, very little chance of any substantial numbers. Signs of company preperation are visible though, just look at the amount of "supervisors" sitting around DFW doing nothing, couple that with the high density parking plan (in the name of safety) and one can see they are preparing. We are in a battle for our carreers and we should all be ready. Many are, unfortunately there is always a few knuckleheads, and they will be dealt with when the time comes. People are sick and tired of being disrespected by the company, up to our eyeballs with the company wanting more and more and willing to give NOTHING. What company with a good soul doesn't give it's workforce a raise for 8+ years? Upper management and the BOD are inherently evil and we need to be prepared and should take them down.

Chapter 11? Please stop with the fear mongering. Citibank has a stake in this. These are the same people that got billions from the government.

 

[Bob Owens]

The possibility of replacement workers is gone. When you factor in DOT testing, TSA background checks, getting them on the property and up to speed on the fleets. IMO, very little chance of any substantial numbers. Signs of company preperation are visible though, just look at the amount of "supervisors" sitting around DFW doing nothing, couple that with the high density parking plan (in the name of safety) and one can see they are preparing. We are in a battle for our carreers and we should all be ready. Many are, unfortunately there is always a few knuckleheads, and they will be dealt with when the time comes. People are sick and tired of being disrespected by the company, up to our eyeballs with the company wanting more and more and willing to give NOTHING. What company with a good soul doesn't give it's workforce a raise for 8+ years? Upper management and the BOD are inherently evil and we need to be prepared and should take them down.

Chapter 11? Please stop with the fear mongering. Citibank has a stake in this. These are the same people that got billions from the government.

You also have to factor in that years ago management used to go out and work during a strike, todays management is polarized, you have the very old, the last time they swung a wrench was on a DC-10 and the very young, they hardly worked anything. The head of Chicago only worked the floor for five months before going into management. Even if they got enough scabs to show up it would be the blind leading the blind-tech services would be out with us as well.Back in the late 80s they phased out the Tech Formen-management, and made Tech Crew Chiefs-union. Todays management is more in tune with autoTA than swinging wrenches.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

With the state of the economy, any group that makes it to release will more than likely find a PEB dropped on their heads and will find their 'strike' lasts for a shorter period of time than the APA's five minute adventure in 1995.

 

[toroshark]

With the state of the economy, any group that makes it to release will more than likely find a PEB dropped on their heads and will find their 'strike' lasts for a shorter period of time than the APA's five minute adventure in 1995.

P.E.B? Bring it on please. I think that anything that they came up with would be better than what the inherently greedy AA corporate pirates will offer. The added bonus of getting on with this and ending the stall tactics. Lets all chant now. PEB PEB PEB

 

[Hopeful]

P.E.B? Bring it on please. I think that anything that they came up with would be better than what the inherently greedy AA corporate pirates will offer. The added bonus of getting on with this and ending the stall tactics. Lets all chant now. PEB PEB PEB

WHAT? And AMR air its AArogance with a PEB? Have everyone aware of the sacrifices made by employees while the higher ups contined to share the gains?

Ohhhh, I think a PEB is the last thing AA wants...If this was the path they planned on, a CH 11 filing would have occured already..

No, No, AA will drag this out another year and finally throw us a bone with NO RETRO.....


I firmly believe AA would have filed CH. 11 long ago and the raping and pillage would be history. No, No, theyre banking on the company union TWU to come through again with another ILC...INDUSTRY LOSING CONTRACT.....


Cmon TWU, Arpey's pulling for you!

 

[DallasConehead]

With the state of the economy, any group that makes it to release will more than likely find a PEB dropped on their heads and will find their 'strike' lasts for a shorter period of time than the APA's five minute adventure in 1995.

Maybe so, but we should still be ready for any eventuality, including a prolonged period of self help. We should show and come from a position of strength, and be ready to walk off and shut the place down. Anyone that thinks differently is delusional. These people want to give you NOTHING, and they have done so for a long time. It is time to take our company back and rid ourselves of the self serving fools that have no business running an airline.

You also have to factor in that years ago management used to go out and work during a strike, todays management is polarized, you have the very old, the last time they swung a wrench was on a DC-10 and the very young, they hardly worked anything. The head of Chicago only worked the floor for five months before going into management. Even if they got enough scabs to show up it would be the blind leading the blind-tech services would be out with us as well.Back in the late 80s they phased out the Tech Formen-management, and made Tech Crew Chiefs-union. Todays management is more in tune with autoTA than swinging wrenches.

I agree, ours are better suited for writing delays. They still have pens, certificates and AOA badges. With high density parking coming to town, it looks like preparation for parking allot of birds which will need PS and A checks.

 

[TWU informer]

I remember when Crandall miscalculated the resolve of the F/A's and it was rumored that during the strike he threw one of those nice Corporate Chairs through the window. I remember walking the picket line at DFW with the F/A's and how many thanks I received when I walked for support.

Arpey may be about to repeat that mistake so stay clear below his Office Window.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Maybe so, but we should still be ready for any eventuality, including a prolonged period of self help. We should show and come from a position of strength, and be ready to walk off and shut the place down. Anyone that thinks differently is delusional. These people want to give you NOTHING, and they have done so for a long time. It is time to take our company back and rid ourselves of the self serving fools that have no business running an airline.

I don't disagree at all, I'm just saying I don't think we are going to be allowed to get to that point.

 

[FWAAA]

Well if that was the case we all know you most certainly would have challenged it but you didnt. I pulled those figures out of their contract. Pretty black and white.

That's a good one. I don't always have to have the last word, so I let your nonsense allegations stand on their own. Besides, once you were removed from the negotiations committee, I didn't feeel the need to rub your nose in your nonsense made-up numbers. But I'll look up that thread and respond.

My prediction is that the company would come to its senses and realize that they shouldnt expect its workers to accept bottom of the industry pay and benifits. If we did go on strike it would be very brief. I dont think the industry could absorb the traffic either.

You have a lot more confidence than I do that senior management would spend borrowed money on increased pay for workers. Strikes are brief (and settled with pay raises) when there are profitable income streams to protect. Right now, the best thing for the industry would be an AA shutdown due to a strike. The other airlines could raise fares (the bottom-basement payers would have to stay home) and could pick and choose the former AA employees they wanted to add as they slowly grew to absorb AA's profitable operations.

So the small numbers that are being put out by these schools arent enough to keep up with attrition due to ageing let alone economically driven attrition.

You and your brethren have been unable to raise your own wages (except for the scant few A&Ps at WN and the larger numbers at UPS and FedEx) and yet you bemoan the lack of new young people and claim that the remaining A&P schools can't put out enough grads to keep up with attrition? Which is it? Are new A&Ps in high demand? Sure, some work for governments; LA County employs a few A&Ps to work on the fleet of police and fire helicopters, but nowhere near as many as AA employs at LAX. Let alone places like NYC.

Your wages aren't rising because the of the glut of A&Ps in this country. Thousands of men and women learned how to maintain airplanes and helicopters in the US military over the past several decades and there haven't been enough jobs to soak up that supply. Wages for A&Ps have stagnated and in many cases fallen. Many airlines employ fewer A&Ps than they did 10 years ago. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be the trend toward maintaining planes in El Salvador and Alabama? In Hong Kong and Singapore?

Maybe you're right. Maybe Arpey would agree to anything you demand if you go on strike and shut down his loss-generating airline. In any event, it's no skin off my nose. I'll simply fly UA or DL.

 

[The Goose]

That's a good one. I don't always have to have the last word, so I let your nonsense allegations stand on their own. Besides, once you were removed from the negotiations committee, I didn't feeel the need to rub your nose in your nonsense made-up numbers. But I'll look up that thread and respond.



You have a lot more confidence than I do that senior management would spend borrowed money on increased pay for workers. Strikes are brief (and settled with pay raises) when there are profitable income streams to protect. Right now, the best thing for the industry would be an AA shutdown due to a strike. The other airlines could raise fares (the bottom-basement payers would have to stay home) and could pick and choose the former AA employees they wanted to add as they slowly grew to absorb AA's profitable operations.



You and your brethren have been unable to raise your own wages (except for the scant few A&Ps at WN and the larger numbers at UPS and FedEx) and yet you bemoan the lack of new young people and claim that the remaining A&P schools can't put out enough grads to keep up with attrition? Which is it? Are new A&Ps in high demand? Sure, some work for governments; LA County employs a few A&Ps to work on the fleet of police and fire helicopters, but nowhere near as many as AA employs at LAX. Let alone places like NYC.

Your wages aren't rising because the of the glut of A&Ps in this country. Thousands of men and women learned how to maintain airplanes and helicopters in the US military over the past several decades and there haven't been enough jobs to soak up that supply. Wages for A&Ps have stagnated and in many cases fallen. Many airlines employ fewer A&Ps than they did 10 years ago. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be the trend toward maintaining planes in El Salvador and Alabama? In Hong Kong and Singapore?

Maybe you're right. Maybe Arpey would agree to anything you demand if you go on strike and shut down his loss-generating airline. In any event, it's no skin off my nose. I'll simply fly UA or DL.

When one understands the accounting procedures, one realizes overall debt wasn't paid down by fantasy but by income that could be excluded from the incoome side via GAAP procedures. $20 billion in debt down to $11 billion in 6 years (IIR) - they can certainly afford to give some of that to the troops while still paying down the "cards".

FWAAA - Since you're obviously up on the accounting rules, how about doing everyone a favor and explain the GAAP accounting procedure that allows for income to be hidden by using said income to repay debt? A corporation does not lower its debt by borrowing more nor does debt go down by wiggling one's nose or by alien activity yet the debt of AMR has dropped since the 2003 lies and give-backs, according to the report filed with the SEC. Are they lying?

It would give a more fair picture of AMR rather than the one being maintained of the poor, pitiful company.

 

[KCKKen]

Your wages aren't rising because the of the glut of A&Ps in this country. Thousands of men and women learned how to maintain airplanes and helicopters in the US military over the past several decades and there haven't been enough jobs to soak up that supply.

This quote alone shows what a dip(text excised) you are. After being in the commercial aircraft business for 17 years I reenlisted in the ANG to work on airframes older than any commercial fleet flying in the US. Wanna know something? THE MILITARY DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY GIVE YOU ANY LICENSE. In fact, I've worked without a license my entire commercial A/C career. Since it's now going to end and all I'll have is the ANG I won't need one -- doesn't pay any more to have one. And I'm not alone -- I don't know of any other mechanic in my shop that works on A/C once drill weekend's over, unless they're full-time ANG employees.

You need to stick to flying on airplanes and shut the (text excised) up about what it takes to fix 'em.