AAnegotiations.com

[Hopeful]

Don't get me wrong, AA mechanics and all AA employess should negotiate for and get paid top dollar market rates (that would be SW wages these days I guess?). But my opinion is that right now the odds are stacked against you. You need to take into account the economy and also your apparently weak union.

You and others like to refer to "market rates," even when executive compensation is criticized.
When that doesn't support the argument, you and others refer to the economy...
But here's what is going on....There is no big pool of mechanics out there waiting to get hired by airlines. Delta at JFK is still looking to fill their mechanic slots. Alot of mechanics that have been laid off have moved into other areas. Even active mechanics are leaving in increasing numbers.
That is why AMR did not offer the VBRs to the line stations. AA's recall list is no longer.

So, instead of using the "market rate theory" to entice experienced mechanics back, they are asking for more concessions. And what will happen in the near future, the airlines will go crying to the FAA and lobby the government to eliminate the need for licensed A&P's, because there arent anymore out there.. NOT because they don't wish to compensate them fairly.

So your "market rate" defense only applies to executives and no one else.

The upper crust of society called the masters of the universe have created their own market.
They sit on each other's boards and pay obscene compensation because some stock increased $.25.

This is about destroying the Ameican worker and blaming unions for the woes of this country.
Even the mighty Democrats cannot stop executive compensation, only defer it. Corporate America says everyone needs to work for WalMart wages, but only the workers, not the suits.

So you may post here that you wish mechanics "well" in contract talks, but most like you secretly wish that the unions get decimated with thousands of layoffs so your stock can go up $.25 and your airfares can start including meals and drinks in coach.

 

[Jager]

Unemployment is a tad over 10% translating to 1 out of 10 on welfare... The news of the economy has more of an impact on consumer spending than the % of unemployment.. The workers just aren't spending as much

Here is a graphic illustration of unemployment starting back in the Bush era..

Interesting stuff... When will it stop?

http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoy...mediafinal.html

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

So your "market rate" defense only applies to executives and no one else.

The upper crust of society called the masters of the universe have created their own market.
They sit on each other's boards and pay obscene compensation because some stock increased $.25.

This is about destroying the Ameican worker and blaming unions for the woes of this country.
Even the mighty Democrats cannot stop executive compensation, only defer it. Corporate America says everyone needs to work for WalMart wages, but only the workers, not the suits.

So you may post here that you wish mechanics "well" in contract talks, but most like you secretly wish that the unions get decimated with thousands of layoffs so your stock can go up $.25 and your airfares can start including meals and drinks in coach.

Hateful but you're wrong,
My opinion is that 'execs' and 'workers' should all be paid the max that they can get. There is no need to hate management because you (or your union) can't negotiate for yourself good compensation. To me there is no such thing as an obscene profits or too much compensation. Those two phrases are exactly what communists in eastern europe were throwing around at the end of world war 2 to incite people to vote for them so they could take power (deja vu in USA in 2008 - but I digress). I'm just pointing out that in the current economy, with the unemployment rate at what it is, AA will likely have no problem finding replacements (for certain work groups). It may or may not be the best for everybody (society/public, shareholders, etc) in the long run, but that's the facts as I see it.
You're also wrong on my opinion on unions. I've said it numerous times that the best way, in my opinion, for airline workers to get max pay is to have a union set up comparable to the UAW. Say what you will about their leadership and structure, there is no denying that the UAW always got the max pay for their members. Now along with incompetent management they ruined their industry along the way, but that's another story ... ...

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Unemployment is a tad over 10% translating to 1 out of 10 on welfare... The news of the economy has more of an impact on consumer spending than the % of unemployment.. The workers just aren't spending as much

Actually, the real unemployment rate is ~15-20% (lower in DC, higher in MI). The reason that the media reports 10% is because this rate does not include those who gave up looking for work (discouraged workers).

Even officials from the fed say so: Real Unemployment 16%
"If one considers the people who would like a job but have stopped looking -- so-called discouraged workers -- and those who are working fewer hours than they want, the unemployment rate would move from the official 9.4 percent to 16 percent, said Atlanta Fed chief Dennis Lockhart.

Here is the BLS data: BLS link

While the "news" on the economy from the mainstream media may affect consumer spending, the fact is there are more people out of a job and businesses not hiring workers - unless you're an illegal alien ... ... ...

 

[Joe Patroni]

Yep 90% of the population is still working, and less than one tenth of one percent have the skills and licences to be Commercial pilots or A&P mechanics. Those that do probably have jobs already. NWA scraped the barrel clean in 2005.

There hasn't been a major layoff of A&Ps since 2005, and those guys arent looking to get back into the industry-they are gone, and there isnt any new blood looking to come in either.

Over the last 5 years half the A&P schools in the country closed their doors because people who have mechanical abilities can do better elsewhere. The fact is in bad economies mechanics are needed more than ever, people hold on to their cars longer, businesses keep their machines longer and they all need people who can keep them working.

People are still quitting and leaving the industry. The favored spot for A&Ps: Utility companies, no layoffs, no pay cuts, no BS. You make enough where you can buy your full fare tickets and actually enjoy your vacation.

You are correct onec again Bob. the shortage of new blood is starting to become apparent. However, the decline in the number of mechanics as well as the new technology of the aircraft coming into future service will more than likely cut down on the numbers of new people needed. Meanwhile, the other industries out there are also finding it hard to aquire people that have the same skillset of A&P's. Not only are A&P's leaving for the utilites, they are also going into the oil industry in big numbers.

 

[Bob Owens]

You're assuming that AA would need to hire A&P mechanics in the same numbers as they currently have. Look at NWA: in 2005 - no recession - they managed to scrape enough from the bottom of the barrel to continue operating. I won't say anything about the quality of persons NW got in 2005, but the fact is they were able to more than survive. The "quality" of the replacement A&P mechanics AA would be able to pick from today would be far higher than what NW got in 2005.

You are forgetting that at NWA the other unions on the property stepped up and helped the company bust AMFA. NWA had to reduce frequencies and in the end they never recovered and were bought out by Delta.

As far as the quality of mechanics available today being "far higher" what do you base that on?
I would say the opposite is true. The first major wave of layoffs started in 2002 and continued into 2005 with AMFA. There hasnt been a major reduction of A&Ps that have been riffed since 1995, in that economy those guys were sucked up by other industries quite quickly,nearly all the reduction since has been through attrition, those guys arent sitting around waiting for an airline job anymore, they permanently left the industry. We saw that first hand when they started recalling at JFK, they started off with 300 names and got less than 20 to come back. Over the last five years over half the schools that provide A&P training closed so there isnt a supply of new people either. AA was trying an apprenticeship program with Aviation HS in NYC, they had one show up and she made it plain that she had no intentions on becoming an A&P mechanic for the airlines. Most of their graduates never go into the industry as other industries that pay better actively recruit from the school. So with no (or very few)new replacements from the schools and no freshly unemployed looking for work where do you think AA is going to come up with the thousands of mechanics that they would need? Plus keep in mind that if the TWU goes out on strike that includes all the ramp personell and dispatch. Unlike NWA the airline would have to replace several workgroups at once.

Moreover, AA really only needs to satisfy enough (50% + 1) pilots and FAs to continue operating. Again, look at NW in 2005 - do you think AA pilot and FA unions would show solidarity with striking mechanics in 2009? (And I'll venture to say that even in 2010 the recession will be still raveging this country).

In 2010, I would say yes, because they are in the same boat. They are as fed up as we are.

Don't get me wrong, AA mechanics and all AA employess should negotiate for and get paid top dollar market rates (that would be SW wages these days I guess?). But my opinion is that right now the odds are stacked against you. You need to take into account the economy and also your apparently weak union.

The odds always were and always will be stacked against us but the plain truth is we have less than ever to lose. AA has taken the position that they are only willing to make things worse, I cant accept that and I'm willing to kill the company if thats the only option they present. We would be better off to do that, just like the EAL workers did in the 90s, than to accept a future of continued degredation. Its their choice to make.

 

[Hopeful]

Hateful but you're wrong,

Yes I am hateful to see what airlines have done to the workers since Lorenzo spearheaded the campaign. You cannot tell me that executives have suffered the same fate as the workers....over the past 30 years....
But I wll say this for umpteenth time...

Prior to concessions, I could care less what an executive, or anyone else earned. I chose my career path and never envied anyone..
We were threatened with bankruptcy, force fed concessions and here we are coming up on 7 years of givebacks and we are still way behind the eight ball....and the company still wants more....And I shouldn't be hateful?
Exectuve patron saints here cite market rates for executives but when it comes to workers, we are told we are lucky to have jobs and we are unrealistic and greedy. ....
Maybe you don't see what's going on in this country, but I do....Unless you are in the upper crust of society, you are going to be expected to live on WalMart wages and be expected to help the economy by buying cars, homes and putting kids thru college...
I say let's go to arbitration because AArogant airlines wants us to work for nothing,,,

I hope every employee shows how grateful they are to have jobs on every flight they work.



All I ask for is a fair playing field..Imagine workers begging for something they had almost seven years and we were still lagging then....How pathetic and AArogant. You keep citing the economy and unemployment rate as a legitmate reason for the company wanting more concessions....but where are THEIR concessions?

There is a different set of rules when it comes to workers....

 

[FWAAA]

APFA members did take a total compensation cut of 33%. Pay was cut 15.6% and with everything else thrown in it was 33%!

Absolute nonsense. The total was about 21% plus 1/3 of your vacation. Because of the 1.5% annual increases, the hourly paycut is now 9% instead of the original 15.6% (as mentioned by the APFA on the 12 page mailer prior to the 18th). The total reduction for 2009 is now about 14% plus that 1/3 of vacation. Only those who flunked math class (or want to deceive) would claim that the concessions took 33% away from the FAs.

 

[FWAAA]

Should we bring up Continental again?

Sure. That's where you asserted that the CO mechanics made $10k more than AA mechanics and then desperately pulled numbers together (some were actual and some were from thin air) to attempt to find $10k. More funny math.

Do you really expect that the company will be able to get enough pilots, Flight attendants, ramp workers, dispatchers and mechanics at todays much lower rates to keep this airline going? Colgan Air killed quite a few people with its inexperienced underpaid pilots, are you looking forward to having that behind the controls of a 777? If those pilots were sucked up into mainline then the experience levels would be even lower at the regionals and didnt the FAA just come out with a ruling on that? With the already reduced capacity of our transport stsytem where load factors remain at very high levels do you really think that the system could absorb the overflow traffic if the number two airline went on strike? I doubt it. So dont bother trying to sell your scare tactics here, we aint buying.

No, I don't. My prediction is that a strike would result in a shutdown, promptly followed by a Ch 11 filing. Maybe AA would operate again, maybe not. As eolesen said, other legacy carriers would absorb AA's profitable traffic, and the bottom-fare payers would be courted by the likes of Airtran and jetBlue.

You frequently post that half the A&P schools have closed and that nobody young is entering the industry. So a lack of young applicants has caused half the schools to shut down. Not unexpected, since it's been over eight years since most legacy airlines hired mechanics off the street in large numbers. When UA closed IND and OAK, thousands of competent mechanics hit the streets. The other half of the schools continue to pump out A&Ps; wonder how many of them find their dream job? Like every other field with an oversupply, it's no wonder you don't see many young faces.

 

[DallasConehead]

I say let's go to arbitration because AArogant airlines wants us to work for nothing,,,

I guess I wonder why you say let's go to arbitration? This can only happen when both sides agree. Maybe this is the plan, I hope not. The only way for us at this point is to give them what they need, a good strong strike. If its respect and restoration you want, thats how you get it.

At this point, we can move forward only when we request that Kane declare an impasse. Lets get on with it and quit wasting time. We've all had a long time to get ready for the upcoming showdown. Or are you saying your not ready? How many guys do you know that went out and bought big new trucks and cars on credit, all while we are headed for a major dispute. Talk about not using your brain.

 

[Tex-Mech]

I guess I wonder why you say let's go to arbitration? This can only happen when both sides agree. Maybe this is the plan, I hope not. The only way for us at this point is to give them what they need, a good strong strike. If its respect and restoration you want, thats how you get it.

At this point, we can move forward only when we request that Kane declare an impasse. Lets get on with it and quit wasting time. We've all had a long time to get ready for the upcoming showdown. Or are you saying your not ready? How many guys do you know that went out and bought big new trucks and cars on credit, all while we are headed for a major dispute. Talk about not using your brain.

I asked this question about a release, and the word that came back through my president is that this point was raised by the Chicago president, and had the support of most except the east coast negotiators who were strongly opposed to a release, and want to continue to negotiate. I'd like to hear what Chicago has to say about this, and confirm it. I know that AFW is ready to get it on, especially here in the trent, heck most of us here have been ready since 95. How about DFW there conehead, much support for a release?

 

[Tbag]

http://www.aanegotiations.com/MechanicsTimelineUpd.asp#nov12



Having checked the company sponsored website regarding AA/Union negotiations, I could not help but laugh that AA cited the TWU reverting back to the 11/2008 union offer which they say will cost $240 million annually. I guess $240 million given to a much less number of higher ups is a non issue.
Funny thing is they rejected the last offer which would've costed a lot less than the $240m.

Everyone needs to understand...AA does not want to give workers ANYTHING.....They want the pension gone, retiree medical gone, and OSMs on the line....

So we can post here all we want about what will happen. Just don't be blind to the fact that we are going to have another concessionary contract.

They also mentioned that the mediator requested members of senior management be at the next negotitations session. Sounds to me like he is getting tired of AA's games and stalling.

Unless we are willing to walk, they won't budge. As inept as the now twAA management group is, they are doing exactly what the BOD wants. And they care less than the employees. It's not even a Mexican standoff at this point. The BOD is laughing Unless we are willing to walk, they won't budge.

 

[Bob Owens]

Absolute nonsense. The total was about 21% plus 1/3 of your vacation. Because of the 1.5% annual increases, the hourly paycut is now 9% instead of the original 15.6% (as mentioned by the APFA on the 12 page mailer prior to the 18th). The total reduction for 2009 is now about 14% plus that 1/3 of vacation. Only those who flunked math class (or want to deceive) would claim that the concessions took 33% away from the FAs.

What about inflation? If your pay isnt increased at the rate of inflation then you have taken a real paycut. Inflation has been running at an average of around 3% for the last 30 years. So the flight attendants number is a fair number.

 

[Bob Owens]

I asked this question about a release, and the word that came back through my president is that this point was raised by the Chicago president, and had the support of most except the east coast negotiators who were strongly opposed to a release, and want to continue to negotiate. I'd like to hear what Chicago has to say about this, and confirm it. I know that AFW is ready to get it on, especially here in the trent, heck most of us here have been ready since 95. How about DFW there conehead, much support for a release?

Dont know where you got that from. I'm all for a declaration of impass then a release because thats when the talks really start.

 

[Bob Owens]

Sure. That's where you asserted that the CO mechanics made $10k more than AA mechanics and then desperately pulled numbers together (some were actual and some were from thin air) to attempt to find $10k. More funny math.

Well if that was the case we all know you most certainly would have challenged it but you didnt. I pulled those figures out of their contract. Pretty black and white.

No, I don't. My prediction is that a strike would result in a shutdown, promptly followed by a Ch 11 filing. Maybe AA would operate again, maybe not. As eolesen said, other legacy carriers would absorb AA's profitable traffic, and the bottom-fare payers would be courted by the likes of Airtran and jetBlue.

My prediction is that the company would come to its senses and realize that they shouldnt expect its workers to accept bottom of the industry pay and benifits. If we did go on strike it would be very brief. I dont think the industry could absorb the traffic either.

You frequently post that half the A&P schools have closed and that nobody young is entering the industry. So a lack of young applicants has caused half the schools to shut down. Not unexpected, since it's been over eight years since most legacy airlines hired mechanics off the street in large numbers.

You seem to not realize what happens when an airline hires too many new mechanics. It takes several years before a mechanic becomes proficient.

When UA closed IND and OAK, thousands of competent mechanics hit the streets.

That was quite a few years ago, they arent out there anymore and if they were their Licenses arent valid anymore.

The other half of the schools continue to pump out A&Ps; wonder how many of them find their dream job? Like every other field with an oversupply, it's no wonder you don't see many young faces.

Airlines dont employ the majority of A&Ps, other parts of the Aviation industry emply them as well from Local Hospitals, Police Departments and any other entity that uses aircraft. Airlines used to offer better pay because they demanded that workers work nights weekends and Holidays with fairly rigid schedules. Well they dont anymore.
So the small numbers that are being put out by these schools arent enough to keep up with attrition due to ageing let alone economically driven attrition.