AAnegotiations.com

[MTheory]

The same one that Canada and most of Europe have adopted would be fine by me.

Not for me, thanks. My taxes are high enough and I dont want to go to the government clinic for my health care. I am not a Socialist, and I do not think that a Socialst economic policy is best for economic opportunity and jobs growth.

I think we are a bit off topic?

 

[eolesen]

Under the Canadian system, the your taxes will go up, and the company will have no incentive to put the savings into your wages, and no incentive to offer better coverage because they're going to be taxed...

I've spent two of the last five weeks in France. One of the guys I work with earns less than a topped out AMT, and pays 45% tax. He has no feeling in his left arm due to a pinched nerve, and his free doctor can't start treating that until they confirm the cause with a MRI, that due to rationing, he's been waiting two weeks for.

In the US, he'd have had his MRI already and received treatment within a day or two. Here, he has no choice but to wait... He can't work, and can't drive. But he'll get his free MRI...

Hate the free market for what it is, but it's still better than socialism.

 

[Bob Owens]

Not for me, thanks. My taxes are high enough and I dont want to go to the government clinic for my health care. I am not a Socialist, and I do not think that a Socialst economic policy is best for economic opportunity and jobs growth.

I think we are a bit off topic?

I agree with AA MechTX.

The fact is that you pay more than people in Europe.

When you factor in medical costs, education (you'll find out about that in a few years when the kids start college), and retirement, nevermind the other things like Holidays, vacations etc we are paying more and getting less. The reason why is because instead of paying taxes to cover medical costs, pension benifits (401Ks) and college educations we are paying for those same things through private for profit corporations and often borrowing interest bearing money (that we have to pay up front fees for) in order to do that. Think of how your $100,000 mortgage really costs you nearly triple that by the time you pay it off. In the end we pay a lot more for the same things and we have less time to enjoy our lives because of it.

Under the Canadian system, the your taxes will go up, and the company will have no incentive to put the savings into your wages, and no incentive to offer better coverage because they're going to be taxed...

I've spent two of the last five weeks in France. One of the guys I work with earns less than a topped out AMT, and pays 45% tax. He has no feeling in his left arm due to a pinched nerve, and his free doctor can't start treating that until they confirm the cause with a MRI, that due to rationing, he's been waiting two weeks for.

In the US, he'd have had his MRI already and received treatment within a day or two. Here, he has no choice but to wait... He can't work, and can't drive. But he'll get his free MRI...

Hate the free market for what it is, but it's still better than socialism. Eoleson

What incentive does the company have to put savings into our wages now?

As for your French friend you left out the fact that he's probably recieving full pay not only for his two week wait (people who have benifits wait here as well, one of the guys at JFK had to wait a period of months for knee surgury, another a similar wait for back surgery, they both had to report to work and work in pain to ensure they had enough sick time for their recovery) but for the whole process. In the end he will be back to work , cured, with no loss of pay and no mountain of bills to pay either, he may also get a few weeks in the Maldives, paid for , to recuperate.

The fact is that I believe in competition. In Europe Capitalism and Socialism coexist but they also compete. Because both systems exist within the one society the people benifit. If Socialism stifles productivity then the people eventually suffer and Capitalism gains leverage which motivates the Socialist side to be more productive, if Capitalism steers too much of the wealth to to Capitalist to the detriment of everyone else the Socialist make sure that everyone knows about and the Capitalist have to curtail their greed. Europeans enjoy longer lives, better health, shorter work weeks and more Holiday(Vacation) time than their American counterparts because by putting the two systems in competition they get the best of both.

We have no balancing forces in our Two Capitalist party dominated society. Structures that were put in place to curtial Capitaist economic oppression during the 30s have been systematically dismantled as we were conditioned and accepted all the anti-socialist propaganda we were fed from the first day we walked into school to every time we turn on the TV or read a publication put out by our Capitalist dominated media.

The RLA is a perfect example of how protections for workers have been dismantled while enhancing the power of Capitalists. In exchange for limits to our ability to resort to self help we were given the right of status quo. In good times we could not arbitrarily take advantage and make huge gains but in bad times the companies couldnt do the opposite and take things away. Our Capitalist dominated court system allowed companies to skirt around the status quo provision and extract huge concessions while still denying us the ability to self help. This would never happen Europe, it would also never happen between two Capitalist entities (there is no doubt that the strggles the airlines faced was due to soaring fuel prices, that said why did the courts demand that labor bear the burden of reduced compensation which was imposed due to public good?) .

Our negotiations are in a setting that puts workers at a distinct disadvantage, especially if they adhere to the rules. If workers are to make gains they have to test the limits of those rules because the rules no longer even pretend to be fair. The rules confine negotiations to a process under the complete control of the government and its Capitalist handlers. If workers continue to work as if they have a favorable deal in place then there is no motivation for the company to alter the status quo, in fact it invites attempts by the company to extract more from the workers and to continue doing so until the workers react in a negative way.

 

[AA767JET]

Anyone hearing any new news on our contract Negotiations lately ?????

 

[Bob Owens]

Anyone hearing any new news on our contract Negotiations lately ?????

We meet again in January. Thats all I've been told. There may or may not be meetings this month with the sub-committee but I havent recieved any word of that.

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

The fact is that you pay more than people in Europe.

When you factor in medical costs ... ... ...

A little off topic, but the fact is that in EU and Canada, the "free" (universal) health care and education system is good for the basics. Primary / middle / high school education system is fine, but if you want the best training so that you'll excell at your chosen profession you're going to apply to colleges (institutes) in the United States and be wiling to pay for it. Similarly, if you have to get your appendix removed it could be OK to wait a day or so at a Canadian hospital. On the other hand, if you're condition is life threatning you're going to run to the best available clinic / hospital in the USA. For goodness sakes, in Canada one has to wait to get approved/qualified by a government health board panel to recieve Herceptin (transtuzumab) :down: :down: :down:

 

[Bob Owens]

A little off topic, but the fact is that in EU and Canada, the "free" (universal) health care and education system is good for the basics. Primary / middle / high school education system is fine, but if you want the best training so that you'll excell at your chosen profession you're going to apply to colleges (institutes) in the United States and be wiling to pay for it. Similarly, if you have to get your appendix removed it could be OK to wait a day or so at a Canadian hospital. On the other hand, if you're condition is life threatning you're going to run to the best available clinic / hospital in the USA. For goodness sakes, in Canada one has to wait to get approved/qualified by a government health board panel to recieve Herceptin (transtuzumab) :down: :down: :down:

I disagree.

As for college we dont see too many people coming here for college from Europe except maybe as part of an exchange program. I was unaware that Oxford and Cambridge are considered inferior universities.

For Profit vs Socialized Healthcare coverage. Years ago I had Kidney Stones, I went to Booth Memorial Hospital, a Hospital with a good reputation at the time, where I waited for hours to be processed-all they wanted to know was how I was paying, then I sat in a hallway for a few hours more, it was around 10 hours before I was in a room and recieved medication, they did a bunch of tests but it cleared itself, however I was getting bills from all over the place for months afterwards, then fighting with the Insurance company over what they would and would not pay. It was a horror.

I had another bout with Kidney Stones while on Vacation in Ireland, within a half an hour I had a shot of Morphine (boy was that nice) and was in a private room. I walked out the next day and didnt pay a dime, no pain, no hassles and good care. No mystery bills cames weeks or months later. No fighting with the insurance company over what they were paying and what they werent. Just not having to deal with health insurance companies makes Socialized Health Care appealing. We pay for coverage then have to fight to get them to pay!

The fact is that even CUBA has lower infant mortality and longer life expextany than we do. Considering the poverty of that country thats a pretty powerful indictment of our system.


Medical Costs are draining our economy. As our population ages it will only get worse. Other countries have systems that, despite what you hear on Fox News, work better and cost less than our system, proof of that is that we dont see those countries that have Socialized medicine drop behind us in life expectancy, have more babies dying or push to go back to the "for profit" system that we have.

We probably wont be able to negotiate any meaningful relief as far as medical costs into our contract. The whole system is out of whack because of the Insurance Industry. The insurance companies are out of line and we should support efforts by the government to reign them in.

 

[eolesen]

As for college we dont see too many people coming here for college from Europe except maybe as part of an exchange program. I was unaware that Oxford and Cambridge are considered inferior universities.

Are you nuckin' futs?.... Seriously, Bob. Do you have any idea how many student visas are issued for students from Europe each year?

Try 61,000 of them. The average enrollment of two large state universities...

And that's just F-1 student visas. Exchange program visas are a J-1.

I agree Oxford and Cambridge are excellent universities, but surely you know Oxford ain't free. Tuition for next year starts at £3,290 (unless you're on welfare). Students from overseas & outside the EU start at £12,000.

By comparison, I will agree it is affordable -- in-state tuition where I live is $9,500 ($24,000 for non-residents).

And surely you know admission to university in Europe is by no means a guaranteed thing. "Oxbridge" admit one of every 5 applicants, which is on par with Duke and Georgetown. Statistically, you still have a far greater chance of being admitted (even as a foreign student) to a US university, which is why so many come here. Schools like Rutgers, U of Illinois and U of Michigan (ranked in top 40 globally), all excellent schools, typically accept 3 out of every 5 applicants.


As for your essay about Irish and Cuban health care... go for it. Move there. Just be aware you'll have more time off, but earn notably less than what you do here, even after you do the math for your insurance and education out of pockets. At least you'll be able to get free morphine shots next time you give birth to a stone.

 

[Rogallo]

ff: ff:

 

[eolesen]

As long as people continue to make claims like "we pay a lot more for the same things and we have less time to enjoy our lives because of it" and pine away for the EU/Cuban medical & education system, you can expect rebuttals...

 

[limit]

...and heads in the sand.

 

[iluvaa]

I disagree.

As for college we dont see too many people coming here for college from Europe except maybe as part of an exchange program. I was unaware that Oxford and Cambridge are considered inferior universities.

For Profit vs Socialized Healthcare coverage. Years ago I had Kidney Stones, I went to Booth Memorial Hospital, a Hospital with a good reputation at the time, where I waited for hours to be processed-all they wanted to know was how I was paying, then I sat in a hallway for a few hours more, it was around 10 hours before I was in a room and recieved medication, they did a bunch of tests but it cleared itself, however I was getting bills from all over the place for months afterwards, then fighting with the Insurance company over what they would and would not pay. It was a horror.

I had another bout with Kidney Stones while on Vacation in Ireland, within a half an hour I had a shot of Morphine (boy was that nice) and was in a private room. I walked out the next day and didnt pay a dime, no pain, no hassles and good care. No mystery bills cames weeks or months later. No fighting with the insurance company over what they were paying and what they werent. Just not having to deal with health insurance companies makes Socialized Health Care appealing. We pay for coverage then have to fight to get them to pay!

The fact is that even CUBA has lower infant mortality and longer life expextany than we do. Considering the poverty of that country thats a pretty powerful indictment of our system.


Medical Costs are draining our economy. As our population ages it will only get worse. Other countries have systems that, despite what you hear on Fox News, work better and cost less than our system, proof of that is that we dont see those countries that have Socialized medicine drop behind us in life expectancy, have more babies dying or push to go back to the "for profit" system that we have.

We probably wont be able to negotiate any meaningful relief as far as medical costs into our contract. The whole system is out of whack because of the Insurance Industry. The insurance companies are out of line and we should support efforts by the government to reign them in.

Bob I have a fair amount of respect for you, but you have got to be insane to think the goverment can run health care. I have a ton of examples of how the gov cant do jack right. But I dont feel like typing all night, i will send you Glenn Becks latest book if you will read it, full of some awesome examples. And find me some people from these other countries that think there health care is so great. Yes capitalism has some flaws but the alternative is really not an option. PM me if you will read the book and I will send it to you then would like to disscuss this via phone. Our country is on a path to distruction we need to stand up agaist both parties and take our country back, stop being blindly democrat. both parties suck and dont care about us. Dems are full of it and so are REP stop voting party line they count on sheep doing what they grew up with, times are changing. please dont take this as hate on you but we really need to change the way we think. looking forward to a positive exchange about this

 

[Vortilon]

Bob I have a fair amount of respect for you, but you have got to be insane to think the goverment can run health care. I have a ton of examples of how the gov cant do jack right. But I dont feel like typing all night, i will send you Glenn Becks latest book if you will read it, full of some awesome examples. And find me some people from these other countries that think there health care is so great. Yes capitalism has some flaws but the alternative is really not an option. PM me if you will read the book and I will send it to you then would like to disscuss this via phone. Our country is on a path to distruction we need to stand up agaist both parties and take our country back, stop being blindly democrat. both parties suck and dont care about us. Dems are full of it and so are REP stop voting party line they count on sheep doing what they grew up with, times are changing. please dont take this as hate on you but we really need to change the way we think. looking forward to a positive exchange about this

What he said...........

 

[Bob Owens]

Are you nuckin' futs?.... Seriously, Bob. Do you have any idea how many student visas are issued for students from Europe each year?

Try 61,000 of them. The average enrollment of two large state universities...

In 2009 the population of Europe was estimated to be 830.4 million, so .0000734% of the European population come to the US for college every year, according to your figures. In 2004, 191,321 US students studied abroad, 116,705 in Europe, or .00038%. So despite the fact that we have less than half as many people (830 million vs 308 million) nearly twice as many US students go to Europe than those that come here. So the per capita rate at which US students go to Europe is 5 times what the rate that European students come here.

J-1 Visas are basically working vacation Visas, kids come over here to find a Summer job, out in the Hamptons or in the city, party after working and go home when the Summer is over. Resturaunts and Hotels wouldnt be able to run without them.

As for your essay about Irish and Cuban health care... go for it. Move there. Just be aware you'll have more time off, but earn notably less than what you do here, even after you do the math for your insurance and education out of pockets. At least you'll be able to get free morphine shots next time you give birth to a stone.

I've experienced both systems (For-Profit and Socialized)and I can say that I got better treatment there. Have you ever experienced Socialized Medicine? If not then you are making your claims based upon what others say (like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh-neither of whom probably had any experience with Socialized Medicine either) and have no real experience yourself. My wife had three C-sections, 3 days and out she went, no support at home either, over in Europe she would be in Hospital at the very least until she had the staples taken out and recieved home visits from a nurse till fully recovered-about 6 weeks, even normal deliveries get more than three days of care over there. As for the "Move there" comment, you claim that our Medical system is better, I say it isnt and give real life personal experiences, I have more, but this is where I was born, its where my family is, and I have every right to state my opinions without being told that I should leave this country if I feel that we need to make improvements.

Cuba, even with its extreme poverty offers its people a medical system that results in a longer life expectancy than we have in the US, do I want to live there? No. But its pretty sad that our system isnt doing a better job than theirs.

Do I have a lot of confidence in the Government? No. But I have even less confidence in corporations. Sure we can see where the government screws up, but at least we can threaten to fire them when they do. We can hold government accountable. With corporate democracy most of the "ballotts" are owned by other corporations, many of these corporations are International corporations and are not loyal to the US, your ability to vote in corporate democracy is measured by your wealth. The more you own the more votes you have. Most of us only invest in the market though our 401Ks, where we are limited to various funds and we surrender our ability to vote on those stocks in the fund to the administrators of the fund and we arent told how they vote. Its a closed club where we have no real input. With the government we may only have a little input but thats better than no input. As bad as some claim the government is, people forget that corporations screw up more often than the government does. Look at AA, their revenues have increased in the billions while their labor costs have plummeted yet they still claim they cant give those of us who are still here any more money. Wheres the accountabilty here?

 

[Hopeful]

Typical TWU lapdog union....Make sure you read Conley's comment.




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