MetalMover
Veteran
- Sep 16, 2013
- 3,543
- 2,410
Let me guess.......The fry cook is labor...The maitre'd d is management.eolesen said:
AAG announces changes at DCA and LGA
- Thread starter lpbrian
- Start date
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #108
I presume you raise the issue because it is being reported that Republic retained the slots for DCA-OMA and MSN to be redeployed as DL flying while the slot for MCI was returned.AdAstraPerAspera said:
Given that the LGA slot awards were announced a couple weeks ago and the rest of the package has not, I suspect there is some horsetrading, table banging, and negotiating going on in Washington.
maybe this week?
the 60 days after the merger runs for another couple weeks.
robbedagain
Veteran
- Oct 13, 2003
- 11,125
- 2,676
if i read you mah are you saying that republic is attempting to keep the slots in order for them to fly under the delta banner from dca whereas B6 and WN are opposing it?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #111
and that's why this slot divestiture hasn't been announced.
of course WN and B6 are opposing the transfer of slots while they get preferential bidding rights to dozens of slots and some small cities that will lose service if DL doesn't operate the routes using the Republic slots. The notion that AA is going to get any of them is silly - that's why this whole process is playing out. UA doesn't appear to be interested in small city slots from DCA - as I predicted - so the slots either remain with AA or are transferred to B6 and WN. Westjet has said they aren't playing. Virgin America might play at DCA but the sheer number of slots and the number of seats that B6 or WN can offer from DCA with even a dozen new flights/day raises the question of what kind of basis does the DOJ have for creating two low fare carrier operations s at DCA that will be on par with DL or UA in size.
Ultimately the question still remains what legal basis the DOJ has to restructure the competitive environment at any airport. It is one thing to say that a carrier cannot exceed at a certain size but it is quite another thing - and it is quite another highly questionable thing to say that AA can have 3X the number of slots that DL or UA have at DCA and DL or UA can't acquire any more but AA can acquire slot at LGA to have two-thirds of what DL has at an airport where DL still has less than a majority of the slots, something that doesn't exist at either DCA or EWR.
And then you still have the question of gates at multiple airports where an arbitrary two gates divested was set despite very different competitive environments at each airport.
This goat rodeo isn't over and DL might well see value in pushing legal challenges or else forcing the DOT to set a precedent which DL could use to then acquire another carrier and retain their slots or gates.
of course WN and B6 are opposing the transfer of slots while they get preferential bidding rights to dozens of slots and some small cities that will lose service if DL doesn't operate the routes using the Republic slots. The notion that AA is going to get any of them is silly - that's why this whole process is playing out. UA doesn't appear to be interested in small city slots from DCA - as I predicted - so the slots either remain with AA or are transferred to B6 and WN. Westjet has said they aren't playing. Virgin America might play at DCA but the sheer number of slots and the number of seats that B6 or WN can offer from DCA with even a dozen new flights/day raises the question of what kind of basis does the DOJ have for creating two low fare carrier operations s at DCA that will be on par with DL or UA in size.
Ultimately the question still remains what legal basis the DOJ has to restructure the competitive environment at any airport. It is one thing to say that a carrier cannot exceed at a certain size but it is quite another thing - and it is quite another highly questionable thing to say that AA can have 3X the number of slots that DL or UA have at DCA and DL or UA can't acquire any more but AA can acquire slot at LGA to have two-thirds of what DL has at an airport where DL still has less than a majority of the slots, something that doesn't exist at either DCA or EWR.
And then you still have the question of gates at multiple airports where an arbitrary two gates divested was set despite very different competitive environments at each airport.
This goat rodeo isn't over and DL might well see value in pushing legal challenges or else forcing the DOT to set a precedent which DL could use to then acquire another carrier and retain their slots or gates.
robbedagain
Veteran
- Oct 13, 2003
- 11,125
- 2,676
i doubt that dl will be able to get any more slots at dca even thru anthr take over of anthr airline. on the other hand i do not recall you saying you predicted that ual was interested in or let alone obtaining slots at dca..
now to lga... dl pretty well owns lga esp after the slot swap deal w usairways so if say dl were to challenge the doj regarding the dca slots it could very well bite them in the tails bec of their gigantic lga ops...
now to lga... dl pretty well owns lga esp after the slot swap deal w usairways so if say dl were to challenge the doj regarding the dca slots it could very well bite them in the tails bec of their gigantic lga ops...
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,959
- 9,374
There was no way UA was going after slots at DCA or LGA, which is why nobody of any credibility brought them up Why waste the DOJ's time when they already have fortress status at both IAD and EWR?
The precedent for future mergers has been set. Nobody will ever get away with fortress status in a major market thru a merger again.
The precedent for future mergers has been set. Nobody will ever get away with fortress status in a major market thru a merger again.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #114
robbed,
why should DL be told they can't add any more slots to DCA yet AA/US have increased the size of their operation at LGA so that new AA will have twice the percentage of slots at LGA that DL has at DCA?
There is no legal justification for saying that DL or UA cannot grow any further at DCA as long as any carrier is allowed to grow at any slot controlled airport, which is exactly what AA is doing at LGA.
UA's hubs have nothing to do with the ability to gain slots at DCA. Neither UA nor DL will have enough slots to operate a hub but rather point to point service, just like what B6 and WN are doing.
We'll see how it plays out but I strongly suspect that there is significant pushback on the legality of what the DOJ is doing in its attempts to reshape the slot controlled airports.
remember that AA/US sued the DOJ and a settlement came in that was considerably less than what the DOJ demanded earlier - including blocking the transaction altogether.
Apparently others can't conceive of the possibility that other carriers might be pushing the DOJ or be willing to sue them.
Unlike AA/US, DL doesn't have a merger on the line so can drag the process out as long as it takes to get what it wants.
why should DL be told they can't add any more slots to DCA yet AA/US have increased the size of their operation at LGA so that new AA will have twice the percentage of slots at LGA that DL has at DCA?
There is no legal justification for saying that DL or UA cannot grow any further at DCA as long as any carrier is allowed to grow at any slot controlled airport, which is exactly what AA is doing at LGA.
UA's hubs have nothing to do with the ability to gain slots at DCA. Neither UA nor DL will have enough slots to operate a hub but rather point to point service, just like what B6 and WN are doing.
We'll see how it plays out but I strongly suspect that there is significant pushback on the legality of what the DOJ is doing in its attempts to reshape the slot controlled airports.
remember that AA/US sued the DOJ and a settlement came in that was considerably less than what the DOJ demanded earlier - including blocking the transaction altogether.
Apparently others can't conceive of the possibility that other carriers might be pushing the DOJ or be willing to sue them.
Unlike AA/US, DL doesn't have a merger on the line so can drag the process out as long as it takes to get what it wants.
robbedagain
Veteran
- Oct 13, 2003
- 11,125
- 2,676
Relook at all 3 of ny airports... dl pretty well is the largest at 2 of them and have a sizeable presence at ewr... pmus at lga gave up 42 slots at lga in return for dca plus cash plus a route.
So ur afraid that the new aa cld grow lga and give dl a run for their money aa after the merger is nbr 2 granted ua has a fortress hub at iad but ur the one who claims they would not get any slots however u never said that on the other hand dl has a sizeable ops in all 3 dc area airports
I think it was the us doj that sued us and aa not the other way around.
dl does not need a merger unless of course they eliminate a competitor to strengthen their king leadership in the airline world
So ur afraid that the new aa cld grow lga and give dl a run for their money aa after the merger is nbr 2 granted ua has a fortress hub at iad but ur the one who claims they would not get any slots however u never said that on the other hand dl has a sizeable ops in all 3 dc area airports
I think it was the us doj that sued us and aa not the other way around.
dl does not need a merger unless of course they eliminate a competitor to strengthen their king leadership in the airline world
JFK Fleet Service
Veteran
To recap:
"Nobody puts Baby...errrr Delta in the corner!"
"Nobody puts Baby...errrr Delta in the corner!"
MetalMover
Veteran
- Sep 16, 2013
- 3,543
- 2,410
Merger on the line?????WorldTraveler said:
UA/CO merged..done deal....
DL/NW merged...done deal
AA/US merged...done deal
I know you would like it to fail so DL can be the biggest, best, greatest airline of all time......but the merger is complete, and yes their will be bumps in the road....
But ON THE LINE?
Please!
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,662
- Banned
- #118
robbed,
B6 is the largest domestic airline at JFK and in total boardings. DL's combined NYC operation makes them the largest domestic airline at all 3 airports while UA is the largest int'l airline.
DL doesn't have a majority of slots at any NYC airport which means it can't have a majority of the total slots.
AA does have a majority of slots at DCA but the DOJ told DL and UA they couldn't acquire any further slots at DCA while allowing new AA to increase its size at LGA, JFK, and EWR thru the merger.
Add in that the gate divestitures was 2 at every airport regardless of the competitive situation and the DOJ appears to be making up rules as it goes.
And the bigger issue and one which I'm sure is being challenged is where the DOJ thinks it has legal authority to dictate what types of carriers can serve a market. The US domestic aviation market was deregulated 35 years ago and the government is not allowed to influence the pricing of the market. I am very certain that DL and perhaps others are challenging the DOJ's notion that they can award slots at airports based on the type of carrier- legacy or LCC, esp. since the DOJ justified its actions based on their perceived collusion in the market.
Ironically, it was AA/US who were targeted for colluding based on their stated intent to eliminate US'Advantage fares and yet the DOJ is extrapolating the comments between AA/US to mean that none of the legacy airlines compete.
DL and perhaps others are undoubtedly vigorously challenging both the DOJ's assumptions and conclusions and that is likely why the rest of the slot divestiture is taking so long.
Like any well-run company, DL is going to protect its interests. Given that AA/US is the last major merger, DL is not going to allow structural advantages barriers to be created that are contrary to DL's interests.
B6 is the largest domestic airline at JFK and in total boardings. DL's combined NYC operation makes them the largest domestic airline at all 3 airports while UA is the largest int'l airline.
DL doesn't have a majority of slots at any NYC airport which means it can't have a majority of the total slots.
AA does have a majority of slots at DCA but the DOJ told DL and UA they couldn't acquire any further slots at DCA while allowing new AA to increase its size at LGA, JFK, and EWR thru the merger.
Add in that the gate divestitures was 2 at every airport regardless of the competitive situation and the DOJ appears to be making up rules as it goes.
And the bigger issue and one which I'm sure is being challenged is where the DOJ thinks it has legal authority to dictate what types of carriers can serve a market. The US domestic aviation market was deregulated 35 years ago and the government is not allowed to influence the pricing of the market. I am very certain that DL and perhaps others are challenging the DOJ's notion that they can award slots at airports based on the type of carrier- legacy or LCC, esp. since the DOJ justified its actions based on their perceived collusion in the market.
Ironically, it was AA/US who were targeted for colluding based on their stated intent to eliminate US'Advantage fares and yet the DOJ is extrapolating the comments between AA/US to mean that none of the legacy airlines compete.
DL and perhaps others are undoubtedly vigorously challenging both the DOJ's assumptions and conclusions and that is likely why the rest of the slot divestiture is taking so long.
Like any well-run company, DL is going to protect its interests. Given that AA/US is the last major merger, DL is not going to allow structural advantages barriers to be created that are contrary to DL's interests.
MetalMover
Veteran
- Sep 16, 2013
- 3,543
- 2,410
WT knows the DOJ has authority, he is just saying that DL should be exempt. How dare anyone one deny DL anything? How dare they!700UW said:
Similar threads
