AAA ALPA Thread 9-21 to 9-27

[ableoneable]

Rode on an east metal jumpseat about two weeks ago. Both pilots essentially said the same thing. "The seniority battle is over, let's just move on and get the best contract possible."

I was somewhat surprised and asked about the "resolve" that USA320 talks about constantly. They said that a lot of east pilots are pissed at ALPA but that "this horse is clearly quite dead, and beating it further serves no purpose." (Their words, not mine.)

The east MEC must be trying to position themselves for political cover. By staying out of JNC talks they force national to negotiate on their behalf and a TA goes out for a vote in three to five months time.

This allows the east MEC political cover no matter which way the east membership votes.

If the TA is voted down they loose nothing. If it passes they can through up their hands and say "Hey we towed the hard line but you guys chose otherwise."

Either way they keep flying their union desks. It's still working after years of delivering nothing but false hope. You've got to give these guys credit.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Able,

If your information is true can you tell me why nearly 2,500 pilots have submitted USAPA Authorization Cards, ALPA wrote Just the Facts II regarding USAPA, and John McIlvenna recently said, "I fully expect to be in a representation election in a matter of days," and Doug Parker recently said, "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way"?

What am I missing here?

Regards,

USA320pilot

 

[ableoneable]

Like I said, they indicated that they are pissed at ALPA. The concessions, pension termination, work rules etc etc.

I did not ask if they were card senders or not. They may well have been. From what they said, however, it sounded like they would probably vote "yes" on a TA that met their expectations.

So I guess what you are missing is that someone who sends in a card may also vote yes on a TA. With the east boycotting JNC talks ALPA and the company will probably come to a TA months before a representational election can possibly take place.

You also seem to constantly miss the fact that since east and west have not yet been given single carrier status, even an election that opens the possiblity of another union will only apply to the east. Until single carrier status occurs the west will remain ALPA.

 

[Junebug172]

What am I missing here?

COMMENT DELETED BY MODERATOR--

Remember NO personal insults or attacks--

Enjoy your time off.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Deleted by author.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Deleted by author.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Able,

I agree there is an element of US Airways pilots would vote yes on a joint contract that would boost their pay and let the Nicolau Award proceed. I do not know the number, but I believe the number is much lower than 50% and closer to 20%.

However, I agree with John McIlvenna that there will be a representational election in a matter of days and "we may not make it over the next set of hurdles. There is a very long road ahead and it will require a lot of dedication and effort to navigate this road," he said.

Also noteworthy, USA Today published the recent AP article titled, "Angry pilots at US Airways near vote on union ouster."

Click here to read the article.

And, Doug Parker said, "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way." What's your opinion of Parker's comment made yesterday to Ted Reed?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[SkyRat]

Able,

I agree there is an element of US Airways pilots would vote yes on a joint contract that would boost their pay and let the Nicolau Award proceed. I do not know the number, but I believe the number is much lower than 50% and closer to 20%.

However, I agree with John McIlvenna that there will be a representational election in a matter of days and "we may not make it over the next set of hurdles. There is a very long road ahead and it will require a lot of dedication and effort to navigate this road," he said.

Also noteworthy, USA Today published the recent AP article titled, "Angry pilots at US Airways near vote on union ouster."

Click here to read the article.

And, Doug Parker said, "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way." What's your opinion of Parker's comment made yesterday to Ted Reed?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Chippy!... Someday!

Take 'em meds...

 

[ableoneable]

Able,

I agree there is an element of US Airways pilots would vote yes on a joint contract that would boost their pay and let the Nicolau Award proceed. I do not know the number, but I believe the number is much lower than 50% and closer to 20%.

However, I agree with John McIlvenna that there will be a representational election in a matter of days and "we may not make it over the next set of hurdles. There is a very long road ahead and it will require a lot of dedication and effort to navigate this road," he said.

Also noteworthy, USA Today published the recent AP article titled, "Angry pilots at US Airways near vote on union ouster."

Click here to read the article.

Nad, Doug Parker said, "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way." What's your opinion of Doug Parker's comment yesterday to Ted Reed?

Regards,

USA320Pilot

McIlvenna is preparing for the worst and planning for the best. Prior to arbitration he also told the pilot group that DOH was a slim possibility and that we had to be prepared for that outcome.

(Contrary to the east MEC's proclimations that DOH was achievable and subsequent to the award that they would not rest until the award was overturned, the west MEC always tries to promise less than they can deliver while the east promises the impossible but continues to survive.)

There may well be a representational election. The chances of it being successful are less likely.

The chances of a new union being able to re-order the list is even less. About nil.

When I was in college we covered NLRB proceedures extensively. Though I am less familiar with RLA proceedures they are generaly more restrictive than the NLRB. The chances for a re-ordering of the list under the NLRB would be zero. I suspect that it is even less likely under the auspices of the RLA.

As for the USAToday article. I don't see why it is noteworthy at all. Just another article with no bearing on the future.

As for Parker's comments; They are probably correct. After a new contract is ratified it will probably take twelve to eighteen months to fully transition into the Nicolau list, but it will happen.

As for your 20% versus 50% prediction; Pure guesswork on your part.

No-one has the answers there. The Wilson polling data is probably useless for judging how pilots will vote on this issue. There are guys giving all sorts of anwers to the wilson center. (i.e. "It will take an FO narrowbody payrate of $350/hr for me to vote yes on a contract.") Pilots will always indicate a more extreme position in the polling data than their real position.

 

[AWA320]

Able,

If your information is true can you tell me why nearly 2,500 pilots have submitted USAPA Authorization Cards, ALPA wrote Just the Facts II regarding USAPA, and John McIlvenna recently said, "I fully expect to be in a representation election in a matter of days," and Doug Parker recently said, "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way"?

What am I missing here?

Regards,

USA320pilot

Now be honest, just how many of these supposed cards are held by furloughed pilots not even on the property???? What are you missisng?? Parker said "immediately" But implimented none the less!!!

 

[USA320Pilot]

AWA320,

USAPA expects this week to cross reference a master list with the number of cards to know whose card may be invalid due to a recent resignation. Last week US Airways held its second to last furlough recall class. 70 were offered a position and 66 showed up. 16 people signed their paperwork to get their one-time DC Plan contribution and then quit, which was approved by Jim Corbusier. Following aircraft assignments one other pilot resigned because he did not receive a CLT position.

That left 49 pilots, who were all contacted by USAPA representatives, they were given Authorization Cards, and it is my understanding 100% of them have now submitted a USAPA card.

According to Charmaine the last furlough recall class (except those who are frozen at a J4J position) will be held in early October. The important point is following this class USAPA will know exactly whose card is valid and whose is not, which will be very important when the NMB does the card count, that John McIlvenna said will happen in a "matter of days".

Why? Because McIlvenna knows that USAPA will see increased cards from active pilots due to the EC's recent decisions and the lack of Rice Committee movement (at least publicly).

I believe most oberserver's recognize the US Airways MEC will drag this out as long as possible until USAPA is in position to gain control of the both pilot goups. USAPA fully understands what happened in the Mississippi Valley Airlines/Air Wisconsin seniority integration/representational election dispute and USAPA is not going to make the same mistakes.

There are two other points to consider. Doug Parker is right that when he said "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way," which buys USAPA more time.

Next, it is harder to have the NMB to authorize an election because it takes more cards than votes to win an election. To win an election you only need 50% + 1 of those who vote whereas to have an election you need 50% + 1 of the total seniority list, which makes it very important to know the status of the furloughed pilots since USAPA will file the NMB Form 1 at or near the time all furloughees status will be known.

I cannot predict the future and there is the possibility USAPA will fail, but one thing is for sure, if USAPA does fail or there is not a Nicolau Award compromise US Airways will become an even more toxic work place than today. Why? You will have an even greater number of East pilots (it is clearly the majority now with 3 engine operations happening not only on the ground, but in-flight too) who will do everything they can to damage the "business enterprise".

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[767jetz]

McIlvenna is preparing for the worst and planning for the best.

Contrary to the east MEC's proclimations that DOH was achievable and subsequent to the award that they would not rest until the award was overturned, the west MEC always tries to promise less than they can deliver while the east promises the impossible.

ableoneable,
I agree with your last few posts 100%. I have said the same thing many times here. The East MEC has been completely negligent in their responsibility to manage the East pilot's expectations. The West by comparison are calm, cool, and methodical. They prepare everyone for the worst possible scenario, and then work diligently to obtain the best possible solution.

While a certain pilot says things like:

If your information is true can you tell me why nearly 2,500 pilots have submitted USAPA Authorization Cards

or keep regurgitating quotes like:

John McIlvenna recently said, "I fully expect to be in a representation election in a matter of days,"

Doug Parker recently said, "I don't believe we're going to get a contract ratified that has that list go into effect immediately. There's no way"?

As usual he is selectively choosing one possible, and very narrow, interpretation of what it means, which happens to fit his view of how he want things to be. He is hoping to persuade people in a way that benefits him.

What he fails to see (or at least admit publicly) is that there is a multitude of reasons pilots may have submitted cards, and that is zero indication of how those pilots will vote on a TA. He fails to get the message from McIlvenna that the West is prepared for a representational election just in case it happens. He fails to understand that if (when) a TA is ratified it will take some time to implement, therefore it any reasonable person knows that it won't go into effect immediately.

I think the sentiment of the East pilots you flew with reflects a growing number of East pilots. They may have submitted cards months ago when they thought there was a chance of the EC ruling in their favor. But now that the EC has ruled and the process is moving along, there are starting to accept that the East MEC has failed them. They are tired of the false hope their MEC has pushed on them of pay parity, and the list not being forwarded, and the DOH award that never came. They just want to improve the quality of life for themselves and their families and move on.

And the East MEC has hopes that they might still be able to "fly their union desks" when the dust settles.

 

[BottomFeeder]

I think the sentiment of the East pilots you flew with reflects a growing number of East pilots. They may have submitted cards months ago when they thought there was a chance of the EC ruling in their favor. But now that the EC has ruled and the process is moving along, there are starting to accept that the East MEC has failed them. They are tired of the false hope their MEC has pushed on them of pay parity, and the list not being forwarded, and the DOH award that never came. They just want to improve the quality of life for themselves and their families and move on.

And the East MEC has hopes that they might still be able to "fly their union desks" when the dust settles.

Mr United Spin Master,

No, it is the failure of ALPA National.

The cards are a wake-up call to ALPA National.

USAPA will be here shortly and there is not a dam thing you as a UAL pilot can do.

ALPA will then become the ALPA RJ National

Prater and gang will lose the next elections

BYe Bye ALPA


It is all your's Mr United you got what you wanted.

 

[USA320Pilot]

767jetz,

I often wonder why you spend time virtually every day since this message board was launched preaching to the US Airways pilots. You launch your uniformed opinion into US Airways pilot’s matters with no knowledge of the rank-and-file sentiment.

Why don't you go and spend your time on the UA board, since you are a UA employee?

Why are you so enamored with US Airways and spend more time on this board than your own company? It does not take rocket science to see there is something strange here when you spend more time and make more posts on the US Airways board than any other venue.

Meanwhile, there is a long way to go here. For example:

There is the lawsuit with the East option to seek a TRO to prevent the list from being implemented where Roland Wilder told the MEC he can hang this thing up for 3 to 5 years.

The Rice Committee is still trying to reach a consensual deal.

There is the recent Wilson Poll results where the majority of West pilots indicated they would accept a 6-year fence, current and replacement widebody restrictions, base restrictions, and other scope related restrictions to reach a consensual deal.

The ability of the East pilots to vote “noâ€￾ on any forced agreement by ALPA National. ALPA can take over negotiations, but they are prevented by the Constitution and By-laws to vote on any TA. I believe with the top 500 retiring every day and more furloughees returning those who would support a “cram downâ€￾ TA gets lower and lower, which is another delay tactic.

Then there is USAPA who is gaining strength every day.

And, there will be even more news Monday night, which you will be surprised about again. Yes, the US Airways MEC understands what it is doing and they have the backing of the majority of the pilot group.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Bud8EE]

It's devolving into a profession of individualists and opportunist, not unionist. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a continuing decline in wages and benefits to some level completely in equilibrium with markets forces and supply and demand all greatly accelerated by ALPA's recent failures and denigration of seniority. You will see a profession of free agents, just like you see in finance, or IT, or any other skilled profession governed by the rules of supply and demand. People won't think twice about crossing picket lines, especially ALPA ones as it doesn't represent unionism, just a gang of thugs interested in collecting dues and protecting the interests of the political heavyweights in a corrupt organization trying to hold onto all the strands of power at all costs.

The word SCAB will be a relic of the past for individuals of a bygone era who were afraid and couldn't hold ranks with their brothers, or individuals trying to get there fast and easy at the expense of others in a profession that once had a proud unionist history. In the new opportunist world you will have free agents doing what is best for themselves, many who would likely do it not just for the monetary benefit but also in retribution to the ALPA gang of thieves. There will be no shame or fear involved but a sense of retribution and recovery for their family and households from what ALPA pillaged out of the greed of Elephants. Fathers and Mothers will be able to cross lines and proudly look their spouse and children in the eyes and say I am "taking it back" for this family and household what the greed of so call brothers no better than Cain, took from us.

Some professor in some prestigious college will write a book on the demise of unionism and Pilots will be the case study. It will be a book about how failing to value the fundamental concept and unionisl principle of seniority, the bedrock any organized group, brought it all down. How it started with pilot greed and political heavyweights not acting on National seniority as the industry evolved out of a regulated environment and how it was accelerated by modifying policies to advantage the haves and a "no holds barred" mentality at protecting the collection of dues at all costs. I am glad I will be retiring soon and getting out on what is the beginning of the end.