AAA ALPA Thread 9-21 to 9-27

[Phoenix]

I don’t have a whole lot of time left so it’s a big sacrifice for the younger crowd to ask me to hold out without a raise so they can “get theirs.â€￾ I think the lower ¼ of our list will bear the biggest impact from the Nic award if things unfold in the worst possible way.

 

[Phoenix]

Will you blame those lower 1/4(some 20+ years) that bear the "impact" for scabbing your job, if they feel the need to "get theirs" and its the only way to recover. You may be angry but you will have asked for it, as I fear we all have.

It is hard to make much of a distinction between someone who crosses a picket line for money and one who votes for a payraise at the catastophic expense of the bottom 25%.

Both are opportunists at the behest of mngmnt.. or *gasp* at the behest of ALPA.

 

[Bud8EE]

It is hard to make much of a distinction between someone who crosses a picket line for money and one who votes for a payraise at the catastophic expense of the bottom 25%.

Both are opportunists at the behest of mngmnt.. or *gasp* at the behest of ALPA.

I think our strike in 98 which I was proud to be part of was the last you will ever see because ALPA knows what would happen now, and they know ALPA carriers would be the ones at risk because of the misguided politics that exist in this union(association) and the complete lack of principles. If ALPA knows the score, you better believe management does, and that bodes oh so well for progression in pay and benefits

 

[Jetz]

I'm not angry and I have supported our fight with the injustice of the Nic award, but what else is left - USAPA? I've been around long enough to know a long shot when I see it. That is a possible solution for the next generation of US pilots, but we need a solution now not 5 years from now. At this point I think we need to strike a balance between the needs of the "older" east guys and the needs of those east pilots benefiting from our attrition. Some may call that selfish, but I characterize it as being a more reasonable and balanced solution. Seriously, how long do you think it is fair to ask us to work for peanuts so those in the lower 1/4 can upgrade? Where was the loyalty for the junior guy in years past? Yes, I was the one who was sold out many a time. I have no problem admitting I'm looking at for myself these days because ALPO has done a damn thing for me.

Will you blame those lower 1/4(some 20+ years) that bear the "impact" for scabbing your job, if they opportunity arises and they feel the need to "get theirs" and its the only way to recover. You may be angry but you will have asked for it, as I fear we all have.

 

[Bud8EE]

I'm not angry and I have supported our fight with the injustice of the Nic award, but what else is left - USAPA? I've been around long enough to know a long shot when I see it. That is a possible solution for the next generation of US pilots, but we need a solution now not 5 years from now. At this point I think we need to strike a balance between the needs of the "older" east guys and the needs of those east pilots benefiting from our attrition. Some may call that selfish, but I characterize it as being a more reasonable and balanced solution. Seriously, how long do you think it is fair to ask us to work for peanuts so those in the lower 1/4 can upgrade? Where was the loyalty for the junior guy in years past? Yes, I was the one who was sold out many a time. I have no problem admitting I'm looking at for myself these days because ALPO has done a damn thing for me.

If Douige stick the hot poker up your guys @$$e$, you will deserve every bit of it. My guess he is smart enough to know that he has a couple thousand union busters if he needs them. See what kind of raise you get under that scenario.

 

[Jetz]

And what would you call someone senior having to suck it up for the benefit of the junior? I’d call that an anti-seniority system. What do you call someone junior that expects senior pilots to sacrifice money and quality of life for their benefit? I’d call that selfish. How much money do I need to sacrifice? Don’t put that burden on me; I had nothing to do with the #### list.

It is hard to make much of a distinction between someone who crosses a picket line for money and one who votes for a payraise at the catastophic expense of the bottom 25%.

Both are opportunists at the behest of mngmnt.. or *gasp* at the behest of ALPA.

 

[Jetz]

Not sure if I follow what you are trying to say. Clearly we have leverage now to get a significant raise and I think the longer we wait we lose that. There are a lot of factors to consider, economy, etc. Besides, I said I need to see the offer before deciding what the next option might be. If it does not address the Nic disaster then it will go nowhere.

If Douige stick the hot poker up your guys @$$e$, you will deserve every bit of it. My guess he is smart enough to know that he has a couple thousand union busters if he needs them. See what kind of raise you get under that scenario.

 

[ableoneable]

USA320, you asked what I thought of Parker's statment, McIlvenna's letter and other issues. You asked, I answered.

Only hearing the sounds of silence from you.

When we are operating under a joint concract and the Nicolau list is in place I wonder what wonders you will spin.

McIlvenna is preparing for the worst and planning for the best. Prior to arbitration he also told the pilot group that DOH was a slim possibility and that we had to be prepared for that outcome.

(Contrary to the east MEC's proclimations that DOH was achievable and subsequent to the award that they would not rest until the award was overturned, the west MEC always tries to promise less than they can deliver while the east promises the impossible but continues to survive.)

There may well be a representational election. The chances of it being successful are less likely.

The chances of a new union being able to re-order the list is even less. About nil.

When I was in college we covered NLRB proceedures extensively. Though I am less familiar with RLA proceedures they are generaly more restrictive than the NLRB. The chances for a re-ordering of the list under the NLRB would be zero. I suspect that it is even less likely under the auspices of the RLA.

As for the USAToday article. I don't see why it is noteworthy at all. Just another article with no bearing on the future.

As for Parker's comments; They are probably correct. After a new contract is ratified it will probably take twelve to eighteen months to fully transition into the Nicolau list, but it will happen.

As for your 20% versus 50% prediction; Pure guesswork on your part.

No-one has the answers there. The Wilson polling data is probably useless for judging how pilots will vote on this issue. There are guys giving all sorts of anwers to the wilson center. (i.e. "It will take an FO narrowbody payrate of $350/hr for me to vote yes on a contract.") Pilots will always indicate a more extreme position in the polling data than their real position.

 

[ableoneable]

Jetz, I think that fences would have been possible had the east been willing to actually negotiate during integration talks. I never had designs on east's wide body slots. Had we agreed to a fence that kept the west out of the widebodies until every east furloughee had rotated through the widebody fleet I would have been fine with that.

If you could have gaurenteed that there would never be a furlough again DOH would have probably been acceptable to the west. The problem is that had the east position been adopted any ecenomic downturn would have resulted in east furloughees displacing working pilots into the street.

This is where we most definately part company phlisophically. I see this as a gross injustice.

Regardless of length of service no furloughed pilot should ever displace a working pilot. The east proposal that put east furloughees senior to west captains was a non-starter for this reason alone.

The fact of the matter is that there is no national seniority list. Therefore pilots who chose to work for AWA instead of USAir deserve to keep the jobs that they brought to the table. (There are pilots who quit USAir and came to work at AWA.) I never applied at USAir because of their furlough history. I remember when every other carrier was hiring in the early 90s and USAir alone had pilots on furlough.

It may not be fair that USAir pilots were on furlough, and that they may again be subject to furlough, but it is insane to think that their compensation for this misfortune should come from my ass. The fact that they had ten, eighteen or fifty years of service at USAir is meaningless in this context, as it should be.

 

[Bud8EE]

Jetz, I think that fences would have been possible had the east been willing to actually negotiate during integration talks. I never had designs on east's wide body slots. Had we agreed to a fence that kept the west out of the widebodies until every east furloughee had rotated through the widebody fleet I would have been fine with that.

If you could have gaurenteed that there would never be a furlough again DOH would have probably been acceptable to the west. The problem is that had the east position been adopted any ecenomic downturn would have resulted in east furloughees displacing working pilots into the street.

This is where we most definately part company phlisophically. I see this as a gross injustice.

Regardless of length of service no furloughed pilot should ever displace a working pilot. The east proposal that put east furloughees senior to west captains was a non-starter for this reason alone.

The fact of the matter is that there is no national seniority list. Therefore pilots who chose to work for AWA instead of USAir deserve to keep the jobs that they brought to the table. (There are pilots who quit USAir and came to work at AWA.) I never applied at USAir because of their furlough history. I remember when every other carrier was hiring in the early 90s and USAir alone had pilots on furlough.

It may not be fair that USAir pilots were on furlough, and that they may again be subject to furlough, but it is insane to think that their compensation for this misfortune should come from my ass. The fact that they had ten, eighteen or fifty years of service at USAir is meaningless in this context, as it should be.

The fact that their years of service means nothing to you is a testament to where this profession is. If you are ever walking a picket line, should the fact it was your company, that you got hired to and invested years in, mean anything to they guy walking through the line to get to it. According to you, the fact that you were there first or put years into it, is meaningless. Life is unfair and all bets are off. If you want to live by that sword(attitude), don't cry about it when it cuts your nuts off. The next year can't go by quick enough for me. Other than the last round of paycuts, I can't actually believe I will have gotten out with my pension intact amongst such fine aviators in such a fine "association."

 

[ableoneable]

The fact that their years of service means nothing to you is a testament to where this profession is. If you are ever walking a picket line, should the fact it was your job you walked away frommean anything to they guy walking through the line to get to it. According to you, the fact that you were there first or put years into it, is meaningless. Life is unfair and all bets are off. If you want to live by that sword(attitude), don't cry about it when it cuts your nuts off. The next year can't go by quick enough for me. Other than the last round of paycuts, I can't actually believe I will have gotten out with my pension intact amongst such fine aviators in such a fine "association/"

What you are saying is that life is unfair and you expect me to pay for your misfortune just because you put in many years at another company.

Your length of service has never meant anything except to place you relative to the previous and next pilot hired at your carrier. If the pilot one number senior to you had ten more years of service than yourself and the pilot one junior had five less does this really mean anything? As far as your seniority is concerned it does not.

 

[Bud8EE]

What you are saying is that life is unfair and you expect me to pay for your misfortune just because you put in many years at another company.

Your length of service has never meant anything except to place you relative to the previous and next pilot hired at your carrier. If the pilot one number senior to you had ten more years of service than yourself and the pilot one junior had five less does this really mean anything? As far as your seniority is concerned it does not.

Actually, I'm gone in a year and I had maxed my pension when it was frozen, so I am one of the lucky few, and timing not ALPA had something to do with it. If I had another 10 or 15 to go, I would be f$@ked. What I am saying is you and people with your attitude are going to get exactly what they deserve. The people at US Airways sacrificed to keep their company afloat and someone else gets to come and ride the attrition wave that still exists because of their sacrifices and now their 20 years is meaningless. If time vested in a profession is meaningless, then by all means cling to that belief but don't cry if someone jams it to you one day, even if it is crossing your picket line. If nothing means anything beyond what you can leverage at the moment then more power to the scab that does it to you, especially if he has been screwed in the past. I doubt it will ever come to that though, because Parker & Co, as well as other airline managers ought to be wringing their hands with glee. Your lucky that is the case on one hand but screwed by it as well. He can push, you as well as all of them now with no threat of strikes. There have been two many screwed now by their own union brothers for the union to ever have teeth again. You wait and see what the final offer is, and whether its your vaunted negotiators at the table or, the amazing National negotiators, it will be pathetic and that is if you get it done before the next recession. If it doesn't happen that quick, good by US Airways, hello MESA because that is where your pay and work conditions will be. After watching this latest debacle, I can't even say I hope I'm wrong because people really ought to reap what they sow.

 

[ableoneable]

Actually, I'm gone in a year and I had maxed my pension when it was frozen, so I am one of the lucky few, and timing more than ALPA had something to do with it. If I had another 10 or 15 to go, I would be f$@ked. What I am saying is you and people with your attitude are going to get exactly what they deserve. The people at US Airways sacrificed to keep their company afloat and someone else gets to come and ride the attrition wave that still exists because of their sacrifices and now their 20 years is meaningless. If time vested in a profession is meaningless, then by all means cling to that belief but don't cry if someone jams it to you one day, even if it is crossing your picket line. Nothing means anything beyond what you can leverage at the moment and more power to the scab that can do that, especially if he has been screwed in the past. I doubt it will ever come to that, because Parker & Co, as well as other airline managers ought to be wringing their hands with glee. He can push, you as well as all of them now with no threat of strikes. There have been two many screwed now by their own union brothers for the union to ever have teeth again. You wait and see what the final offer is, and whether its your vaunted negotiators at the table or, the amazing National negotiators, it will be pathetic and that is if you get it done before the next recession. If it doesn't happen that quick, good by US Airways, hello MESA because that is where your pay and work conditions will be. After watching this latest debacle, I can't even say I hope I'm wrong because people really ought to reap what they sow.

If you take a look at my first post you will see that I have no problem with fences that provide the east with their own attrition.

The problem is that they wanted everything. Credit for upgrade attrition that came from retiring first officers, furlough protection at the expense of the west pilots, etc.

They may have made sacrifices that kept their company alive but I never worked there. I took a chance at a startup carrier instead. I gambled that my company would grow and survive instead of getting in at the bottom of a carrier like NW or US. I never applied at USAir for that reason and decided to blow off NW for the same reason. I figured that my downside gamble was that AWA might not survive. My upside gamble was that I was probably protected from any furlough due to my relative seniority at AWA.

It is true that the USAir furloughees have been victimized by fortune. It should not, however, be me who pays to make them whole.

That would be tantamount to me transferring my job security to them. The very definition of a windfall granted to one at the expense of another.

 

[LCC_#1]

Actually, I'm gone in a year and I had maxed my pension when it was frozen, so I am one of the lucky few, and timing not ALPA had something to do with it. If I had another 10 or 15 to go, I would be f$@ked. What I am saying is you and people with your attitude are going to get exactly what they deserve. The people at US Airways sacrificed to keep their company afloat and someone else gets to come and ride the attrition wave that still exists because of their sacrifices and now their 20 years is meaningless. If time vested in a profession is meaningless, then by all means cling to that belief but don't cry if someone jams it to you one day, even if it is crossing your picket line. If nothing means anything beyond what you can leverage at the moment then more power to the scab that does it to you, especially if he has been screwed in the past. I doubt it will ever come to that though, because Parker & Co, as well as other airline managers ought to be wringing their hands with glee. Your lucky that is the case on one hand but screwed by it as well. He can push, you as well as all of them now with no threat of strikes. There have been two many screwed now by their own union brothers for the union to ever have teeth again. You wait and see what the final offer is, and whether its your vaunted negotiators at the table or, the amazing National negotiators, it will be pathetic and that is if you get it done before the next recession. If it doesn't happen that quick, good by US Airways, hello MESA because that is where your pay and work conditions will be. After watching this latest debacle, I can't even say I hope I'm wrong because people really ought to reap what they sow.

One day they will be where you are and frankly I hope it DOES come around and bites those guys in their butts.

 

[767jetz]

I'm not angry and I have supported our fight with the injustice of the Nic award, but what else is left - USAPA? I've been around long enough to know a long shot when I see it.
At this point I think we need to strike a balance between the needs of the "older" east guys and the needs of those east pilots benefiting from our attrition.
I characterize it as being a more reasonable and balanced solution.

While many East pilots like Jetz have stood together and fought for what they believe to be right, there is a big difference between those like him (who I believe are growing in number) and those like USA320pilot.

Pilots like Jetz are the type to look at all the options, and then make rational decisions based on current realities. Some will agree with him. Other's will not. If others say he is looking out for himself, then so be it.

Pilots like USA320pilot always look out for their own self interest, but try to trick other's into believing that he really cares about them. The difference between the two is integrity.