AA/US Seniorty list out

[MetalMover]

And to not exaggerating ones' importance

As in calling One's Self a Metal Mover, when one is a Rider

Sorry, kid...I move the metal like most mechanics do.

 

[Ifly2]

Well,then you got arbitration, and most of the spoils

I am the first to point out that nothing moves without everyone doing their job, but you still ain't moving the metal fast enough or far enough to get the job done.

BTW, yeah, I do have to troubleshoot systems and failures for the mechs who show up at the gate, often.

Too often.

You'd think that everyone would pretty much get how a friggin' DC9 works by now... But, sadly, that's not quite the case.

You jumped on the FA thing

 

[MetalMover]

Two year-olds want everything they see

That doesn't make it right

Maturity usually leads to that realization

TWA year olds did not get what they want..
Move on.....
 
When you and your brethren mature, you'll be able to move on.
 
You can have the last word... I'm dont with this useless conversation.

 

[Ifly2]

You r repeating yourself...

Moved on

Happy

Life Is Good

Still not sitting in silence when ignorAAnt, AArrogAAnt crap is being spewed

You fired this one up

You move on

 

[Hatu]

According to the roster listed on the AAflightservice website I am seniority number 7408 out of 16061 or at 46%.
 
According to the combined seniority list on the APFA web site I am seniority number 11809 out of 24528 or at 48%.
 
So my relative position dropped two percent.  I came online at American in May 1991.

 

[eolesen]

TWA was not on the courthouse steps the first week of January

Anything else, including what might have happened absent the AA deal, is pure speculation, and nothing more.

Uh, not quite.

TWA had a $150M debt payment due on January 15, 2001. Their liquidity at the time was down to $20M.

That's pretty well documented if you know where to look.

Go ahead and argue that it's just speculation, but absent the means available to make the payment, TWA would have been in default probably no later than January 30, 2001, leaving them with the option of filing for Chapter 11 or Chapter 7 voluntarily, or one of the debtors pursuing an involuntary bankruptcy filing.

Sorry if you think that the unions made it all up, but the only myth or legend I've seen promoted is what you're pushing re: TW's chances absent AMR. Every other airline passed, including AA. Compton came back to AA a second time, and Carty cut the deal which resulted in the auction where nobody else could come up with a better bid.

http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/ccg/commentaries/Anatomy_TWA.html

http://www.deb.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/judge-peter-j.walsh/twa1.pdf

http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/deptpages/legal/dpa/Expert-Report-of-James-S-Feltman.pdf

It's a harsh reality that most people accepted long ago.

There is a similarity between TW/AA and US/AA, but it's not the one that some here have been promoting.

Both TWA and US pursued a deal that AA initially didn't want. That left AA's unions with bargaining leverage. AA's unions used that to the advantage of their members. The dovetailing that came from the FA deal in the original posting may not look like the best deal possible for the membership, but I'd say it is probably fair enough under all the circumstances.

 

[Ifly2]

The note you speak of was secured with assets that AA sold for twice plus the note's value

That note had also been refinanced every one of several previous years

It also came with an automatic extension

The cash position you reference was at the absolute lowest, after the deal was made, and TW abandoned the usual winter "cash conservation" strategies and paid that note and other trade creditors due.

As many have noted re the AA BK, it is certainly possible, and common, for companies to manipulate the numbers in order to facilitate their goals. Cash position especially...

We also know that BK does not necessarily, or even normally/frequently result in airlines going out of business.

There was, absent the AA deal, a special BOD meeting scheduled the first week of JAN to hear the final presentation by turn around firm J Alix assoc, a deal/plan that already had widespread support on the board, among the union reps on the board, and with the major creditors, including Boeing, the largest creditor.

There was also reportedly outside financing/investment available for that plan, from the same group that was supporting CAL and AmWest at the time, and a vague outline of a code-share/JBV based "virtual merger".

All of that became moot with the AA deal, of course. The meeting with J Alix etal became the meeting to approve the AA deal that Compton and Carty had worked out.

What would have happened absent the AA deal is, still, truly, purely... speculation.

(Since the next step is referencing testimony before Congress and the DOJ, that testimony was given months later, after TW had accepted and spent DIP financing, culled the most lucrative flying from the schedule, suffered the bookings drop associated from the Asset Purchase Agreement required Ch 11 filing, and acquiesced to AMR's scheduling wishes. Not to mention abandon and actively campaigned against any other deals or restructuring plans.

The testimony was of course true when given, and equally not applicable to a TWA absent the AA deal.)

 

[eolesen]

The note was secured with assets worth double its value because TWA was such a credit risk.

It's no coincidence that AA was able to reduce lease rates by an average of 36%.

Keep believing otherwise if you wish, but the likelihood of the note being renegotiated a third time was slim at best. TW was insolvent.

Insolvent.

I know it hurts to relive it.

Insolvent.

There wasn't going to be a refinancing. Period. The enterprise as a going concern was finished.

Insolvent.

 

[Ifly2]

Your opinion

And biased

Your opinion

True when it needed to be

Not necessarily true before then

The show had been playing a long time

And the fat lady had not sung, yet.

All we know for sure is that the AA deal did happen.

Every.Thing.Else. Is by definition speculation.

An opinion.

An opinion.

(I can do that too, even if I'm not real sure what your point in doing it was...)

And that APFA, and APA did impose the role of furlough fodder on career employees and their new fellow employees and union members in order to protect new hires whose entire service to the combined enterprise consisted of receiving a stack of manuals and having their ID photos taken.

Ok, some had finished training.

Some had even worked a few flights.

Some think that is ok, or even right.

Some don't.

I didn't start this fire.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Well,then you got arbitration, and most of the spoils

I am the first to point out that nothing moves without everyone doing their job, but you still ain't moving the metal fast enough or far enough to get the job done.

BTW, yeah, I do have to troubleshoot systems and failures for the mechs who show up at the gate, often.

Too often.

You'd think that everyone would pretty much get how a friggin' DC9 works by now... But, sadly, that's not quite the case.

You jumped on the FA thing

Has anyone ever called you a dullard?
 
They have now.

 

[700UW]

Michael Milken was in talks with the IAM and had a deal in principle and not get it done in time as TWA begged AA to buy them.

 

[eolesen]

Your opinion

And biased

Sure, it's my opinion, and it's also that of ALPA's financial consultant (linked in my post above), and just about every other independent analyst who was watching on the sidelines or in the courtroom.

Tell you what -- why don't you find a few independent opinions which state that TW would have been just fine, and that as an insolvent company, would have found a willing party to refinance the $150M.

I've yet to see anyone who didn't have a dog in the hunt state an opinion that TW could have made it past the end of January.

I've seen a lot of TW employees claim otherwise, but don't recall ever seeing a single independent.

Go read Feltman's analysis. Being contracted by ALPA, I'd think if anyone was going to come up with a rosy outlook, it would have been him.

 

[IORFA]

Sure, it's my opinion, and it's also that of ALPA's financial consultant (linked in my post above), and just about every other independent analyst who was watching on the sidelines or in the courtroom.Tell you what -- why don't you find a few independent opinions which state that TW would have been just fine, and that as an insolvent company, would have found a willing party to refinance the $150M.I've yet to see anyone who didn't have a dog in the hunt state an opinion that TW could have made it past the end of January.I've seen a lot of TW employees claim otherwise, but don't recall ever seeing a single independent.Go read Feltman's analysis. Being contracted by ALPA, I'd think if anyone was going to come up with a rosy outlook, it would have been him.

The guys a buffoon and a blow hard. He just showed up and started spewing ridiculous garbage. This guy is wAAy off his rocker. Apparently his wife is too if she believes even an ounce of what he's preaching. This guy is now on an even level with WT for me. A waste of energy and something I don't need to spend my time trying to bring him back to earth to rejoin the general population. A lost cause and second member of my ignore list.

 

[MetalMover]

Your opinion

And biased

Your opinion

True when it needed to be

Not necessarily true before then

The show had been playing a long time

And the fat lady had not sung, yet.

All we know for sure is that the AA deal did happen.

Every.Thing.Else. Is by definition speculation.

An opinion.

An opinion.

(I can do that too, even if I'm not real sure what your point in doing it was...)

And that APFA, and APA did impose the role of furlough fodder on career employees and their new fellow employees and union members in order to protect new hires whose entire service to the combined enterprise consisted of receiving a stack of manuals and having their ID photos taken.

Ok, some had finished training.

Some had even worked a few flights.

Some think that is ok, or even right.

Some don't.

I didn't start this fire.

Can anyone here say TROLL?

 

[silverbird007]

I started with AA in the late 90s, I had worked for another airline that went into bankruptcy and liquidated. When I applied with AA, I also applied with UA and was about to apply with DL when I was hired by AA. TWA was hiring but was not an option for me because of their financial problems which were similar to what I had just gone thru. I have flown with several ex TWA flight attendants who quit TWA  and were hired by AA in the 90s who are senior to me. The few that have talked about what happened  think its fair because they saw what was happening and left. If the TWA fas had been given date of hire with the acquisition, the ones who left TWA back in the 90s would probably been furloughed after 9/11. That would not have been fair to them either. APFA did the same thing with TWA as they did with Reno Air. So it wasn't just TWA. APFA was doing what they are paid to do. Anyway I know this is about the US Airways/AA seniority list. I moved down the list over 5000#s. I know relative position is what really matters at the end of the day. Im just happy to have a job which I enjoy most of the time, and the benefits as well as finally getting off reserve after 15 years. It looks like most of the ex TWA fas are off reserve or will be soon, so at least they are not stuck on the bottom of the seniority list.