APFA Seniority

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/22/2003 12:23:30 PM A77IGW wrote:

Come on now APFAH8TR they do more than ask for more ice in the soda. They pass out pretzels and perfect the art of bitching and complaining. The company could #### a gold brick in the flight attendants lap and they would not be happy.

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They are trained on emergency resuscitation, emergency defibrillation. They save have saved countless lives delivered babies, stopped a shoe bomber. The list goes on. But you to are to stuck up and petty to realize the countless reasons flight attendants are on board.

 

[ArtTang]

Ford writes:
I just hate to see so many people with 30 years or more lose their jobs, I wish we all lived in a world that was perfect, but that is not the way things happen. I think a lot of flight attendant live in a fantasy world, and think they are not replaceable, but let me tell you something, this is just my opinion and I''m sure many more, but the reality is anyone can ask a person if they would like more ice with their soda............


Art writes:

Ford,
If you believe the job of a F/A is to simply ask passengers if they want more ice for their soda then you are living in the fantasy world to which you allude in your post. No, the F/A job it is not rocket science, but it does require social skills and judgment calls that you clearly lack. It is obvious you would be one of the many thousands of aspirants to be rejected during the interview process for the F/A job. "This is just my opinion and I''m sure many more" (sic).

 

[ArtTang]

To answer your fair question about why the APFA defends the bad apples: Those of us who work hard and try to maintain a sense of professionalism in this job ask ourselves the same thing. The answer is simple: the APFA, like all unions, is legally bound to do its utmost to protect its members against unjust termination or treatment at the hands of the company. Having said this, the union has indeed defended some bad apples as it is legally obligated to do. But, I also thank God for the union as it has saved countless butts from abuse and mistreatment by AA...including mine! Please bear with me:

In 1988, I broke my left ankle in the stairwell in Raleigh/Durham where I was based. I was climbing the stairs with my bags; the elevator was broken and it was pouring cats and dogs. The stairs were sodden. I needed to get to my flight to Paris and the stairs were the only way to gain access to the terminal from operations. I slipped, fell, and my left ankle snapped. American Airlines refused to grant me workers'' compensation. The company drained my sick bank and I had to borrow money during the time I was in a cast just to pay my bills. If it had not been for my union, I would never have won that case against AA. The company denied the claim until my union forced them to have a system board hearing. The company''s argument: "I was not performing any work related duties"...hmmm, seems to me as I was in uniform, signed in for duty, proceeding to the departure gate with my purser paperwork, what was I doing if it was not work related? Justice was finally served and I collected the pay due me and my sick bank was restored: Thanks to the APFA, not AA! This company will screw its employees any chance it gets. I''ve been around for 17 years and I see it all the time. So you can criticize the unions all you like, but it is an effective check and balance when you deal with a company that has such a poor corporate culture.
So, go ahead and criticize the lazy F/As, criticize the union for defending them, but try to keep in mind that the vast majority of F/As are excellent workers and the APFA does a tremendous amount of good too. Fair & balanced, ok people?!?
Art

 

[ArtTang]

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And we all know that none of those valuable contributions could be performed by a new crop of 20 year olds with a high school diploma and 6 and a half weeks of training.

Coke, with extra ice, please.


Art writes:

OK, Let's try this again, you idiots. How many 20 year olds with a high school diploma would have been able to foil Richard Reid as my friends did on flight 63?
Art

 

[FWAAA]

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On 4/22/2003 145 PM bicaal wrote:

And one of the reasons that f/as are not respected is due to the leadership of people like Carty. I have saved lives with CPR, I have bandaged wounds, held babies, watched people die on my flight, been thrown up on, etc. You are probably right that any 20 year old could do this job, but then I wonder. When we started flying after 9/11 I sat next to a doctor who was flying to LAX. As he sat and cried in my arms because he was frightened, I knew that we were safe and convienced him also. I don''t think that this grown frightened man would have done so with a 20 year-old.
Our flight attendants had the where what to, even in a crisis, to call and identify seat numbers of the hijackers on 9/11. Flight attendants were the first to die.
We have lost engines flying over the North Atlantic and remained poised and professional through emergency landings. We have safety training in health and first aid, ditching, and evacuations yearly. And also spot FAA inspections. I could go on but people who feel that any airhead could replace us couldn''t understand.
The APFA is attempting to divert attention by dividing the membership with the seniority integration agreement. What more f/as should be concerned about is the disparate treatment in per-diem, meals, furlough pay, unlimited recall, all of which were afforded to the pilots. The list goes on.
This company is headed to chapter 11, whether we vote the CBA up or down. To use the seniority issue as the main obstacle only comes back to harm all of the f/as. What if the seniority issue to won in a court of law? Then there will be no furlough pay, no unlimited recall, and most importantly who can work under these new imposed rules? Do you think that John Ward and his merry bandits will come back to the line?

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So, are the current 26,000 members of the APFA the only qualified people out of the 280 million Americans to serve as FAs? Or is it possible that AA could find another 20,000 or so qualified individuals who could complete the 6 and a half week training course?

 

[FA Mikey]

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On 4/22/2003 12:52:11 PM A77IGW wrote:

I agree ART no more insults should be taken at the entire work group. But why does the APFA defend the bad apples. If flight service did the job they were supposed to we may not need to lay off anyone. They just need to put friendship aside and fire the people who show a pattern of sick abuse, family leave abuse report late too often. You and I both know that there are way to many who abuse the system. If given some time I myself could get at least 500 names by the end of the month

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The unions job is to protect its members, and in sometimes protecting a so called bad person, is in the greater good not to allow a precedent in termination.

In most termination''s the facts are not in question. Person X calls in sick every other trip and has a pattern ETC. Person X stole something and has been caught. The APFA its reps and lawyers get people off on two main things. Unjustified termination. In some way it was not done right. They didn''t get the proper written warnings for the pattern sick abuse, or was not done by procedure, all set fourth in the AA policy Manuel. The other way people get off for things. Is in an arbitration, when the punishment doesn''t fit the crime. Person X steals and they are watching them. In debrief with security they find some food item from the a/c on the person. Knowing they have been stealing in the past, they fire them. Since the company will only offer evidence that a food item was stolen and if they have no other evidence or proof other than hear say. The arbitrator will be forced to rule, if that is grounds for termination.

Face it there are crappie people in every part of this company. We dont like defending them or even working with these people. But if we allow a precedent to stand. Resulting in a decent person losing there job for something trivial.

 

[ArtTang]

Yes, every work group will have a few bad apples, but is this a reason for you guys to persist in debasing the entire work group? Jeez...we all accept the fact that crappy employees should go, but try to remember that the majority of F/As are excellent employees and are much more educated than you believe. Most F/As I know speak at least one other langauge fluently and have at least a college degree. Your never-ending insults are palling.
Art

 

[FWAAA]

And we all know that none of those valuable contributions could be performed by a new crop of 20 year olds with a high school diploma and 6 and a half weeks of training.

Coke, with extra ice, please.

 

how will seniority integration hurt you

 

[FWAAA]

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That's right - only old people can tackle evil men. I hope AA never hires another young person, since old people are necessary for my "safety."

 

And so I am fair the same goes to my department as well. We have plenty of crap in out dept and I do not understand why management does not fire them

 

[bicaal]

And one of the reasons that f/as are not respected is due to the leadership of people like Carty. I have saved lives with CPR, I have bandaged wounds, held babies, watched people die on my flight, been thrown up on, etc. You are probably right that any 20 year old could do this job, but then I wonder. When we started flying after 9/11 I sat next to a doctor who was flying to LAX. As he sat and cried in my arms because he was frightened, I knew that we were safe and convienced him also. I don''t think that this grown frightened man would have done so with a 20 year-old.
Our flight attendants had the where what to, even in a crisis, to call and identify seat numbers of the hijackers on 9/11. Flight attendants were the first to die.
We have lost engines flying over the North Atlantic and remained poised and professional through emergency landings. We have safety training in health and first aid, ditching, and evacuations yearly. And also spot FAA inspections. I could go on but people who feel that any airhead could replace us couldn''t understand.
The APFA is attempting to divert attention by dividing the membership with the seniority integration agreement. What more f/as should be concerned about is the disparate treatment in per-diem, meals, furlough pay, unlimited recall, all of which were afforded to the pilots. The list goes on.
This company is headed to chapter 11, whether we vote the CBA up or down. To use the seniority issue as the main obstacle only comes back to harm all of the f/as. What if the seniority issue to won in a court of law? Then there will be no furlough pay, no unlimited recall, and most importantly who can work under these new imposed rules? Do you think that John Ward and his merry bandits will come back to the line?

 

[FWAAA]

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On 4/22/2003 1:34:37 PM ArtTang wrote:

FWAAA,
You are hopeless. Just because a person completes the training program does not automatically make him/her a great F/A. Would you rather have a new hire F/A straight out of training deal with an emergency or would you rather have one who has some experience in such matters? In my 17 year career,I have had about three paxs experience heart attacks, an emergency landing due to a bomb threat (this occured just after Lockerbee and nobody on my crew lost his cool), emergency landing due to smoke in the cockpit, lost engine over the Atlantic, blah, blah...I dare say you would rather have someone like me on your flight than an unfledged new hire. What is so hard to understand about this? Would you rather have a doctor straight out of med school operate on you or a seasoned surgeon? I would never say I am irreplaceable, but it would take a hell of a long time to bring a new hire up to my speed.
You seem to be firm in your belief that a F/A''s job is to serve ice with soda. Whereas this is an aspect of the job, it is certainly not the essence of the job. If you deny that flying today is riskier than in the past then you are dreaming. Terrorists are seeking new ways to bring trauma to our country and all airline employees must be hyper vigilant. I would trust a senior F/A to be more alert and responsive any day over a 20 year old who''s never felt the heat. Some of you claim F/As are "using" 9-11 or flight 63 as an excuse to be lazy. What? We only bring up the importance of these events because we need to remind the denser members of the board about the importance of our job as they incessantly label us as brainless waiters in the sky.
Ah well, why do I bother? Those of you who wear blinders will never remove them: hopeless.


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I''d be happy with AA''s 17 year veteran FAs not calling customers "idiots." Or calling them "dense" or "hopeless." You may be priceless in an emergency, but I can''t believe that your everyday contributions are, on balance, a positive for AA.

If in your opinion the training course isn''t enough to prepare the FAs, then perhaps it should be changed.

Good luck in your future endeavors.

 

[767jetz]

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On 4/22/2003 11:33:04 AM APFAh8r wrote:

think a little more about that, before you cause more unrest in this company. This is just a little thought that has been floating around for a few days now.

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Ford,

Don''t blame the fate of AA on your fellow employees who only want a fair vote. Remember that the first outcome was NO.

If AA files for CH11 it is because Carty and senior management as well as the board of directors have made that decision.

Carty knows that there is no way for him to get his costs in line with his biggest competition, without the help of the courts. That goes for vendors and lessors as well as employees. The concessions he is trying to force on employees are to delay the CH11 filing long enough for management to line their pockets some more, and cover their butts and their pensions. What do you think the SERP was all about?

Believe it or not, misery does not like company. As a UA employee I would rather AA does NOT file for CH11, for 2 reasons. First of all, the less cuts you guys take, the higher the industry standard stays, and the better my chances of getting a bigger raise in 6 years. Second, I believe UA would have an economic advatage over AA because our cost structure will be lower than AA''s when we emerge from CH11.

But competiton aside, I think Carty''s plan all along was to follow UA into CH11 if UA didn''t go CH7. I also believe UA management had the same plan from the start.

Whatever the outcome, don''t blame it on the employees.

 

[ArtTang]

FWAAA,
You are hopeless. Just because a person completes the training program does not automatically make him/her a great F/A. Would you rather have a new hire F/A straight out of training deal with an emergency or would you rather have one who has some experience in such matters? In my 17 year career,I have had about three paxs experience heart attacks, an emergency landing due to a bomb threat (this occured just after Lockerbee and nobody on my crew lost his cool), emergency landing due to smoke in the cockpit, lost engine over the Atlantic, blah, blah...I dare say you would rather have someone like me on your flight than an unfledged new hire. What is so hard to understand about this? Would you rather have a doctor straight out of med school operate on you or a seasoned surgeon? I would never say I am irreplaceable, but it would take a hell of a long time to bring a new hire up to my speed.
You seem to be firm in your belief that a F/A''s job is to serve ice with soda. Whereas this is an aspect of the job, it is certainly not the essence of the job. If you deny that flying today is riskier than in the past then you are dreaming. Terrorists are seeking new ways to bring trauma to our country and all airline employees must be hyper vigilant. I would trust a senior F/A to be more alert and responsive any day over a 20 year old who''s never felt the heat. Some of you claim F/As are "using" 9-11 or flight 63 as an excuse to be lazy. What? We only bring up the importance of these events because we need to remind the denser members of the board about the importance of our job as they incessantly label us as brainless waiters in the sky.
Ah well, why do I bother? Those of you who wear blinders will never remove them: hopeless.