The best part about your company being in financial turmoil, is Chip will start coming over and posting every possible negative rehashed piece of garbage he can find a link to. Also, he will probably suggest U is gonna buy large chunks of AA. As a UAL employee, I wouldn't want my brothers to miss out on all the fun...🙂
AA on the Bandwagon
- Thread starter BeenThere
- Start date
- Status
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2002
- Messages
- 786
- Reaction score
- 0
One problem. Chip will have to me waiting for him, and given how he never seems to respond to facts which rebutt his opinions, I don't think he'll enjoy being here very much.
A slight correction to the mgmt layoff figure Connected1 gave. The 5% only applies to your area. Some areas (including mine) are actually seeing an 8% reduction, while others are seeing 4%. I don't think we'll really know what the final total is until November, when it is all finished (this round is being stretched out over four weeks for all of HDQ).
The first round occurred Tuesday, including some people I knew. And these were I bleed red-white-blue-and-silver people, so for those who might want to rejoice in that, you might want to remember that they too have mortgages and kids to feed, just as the union brothers and sisters do.
I don't expect to see pay cuts either. I know I'm being asked to work harder for each dollar I earn in salary, and I'm OK with that. From what I'm reading in Carty's messages so far, that's all he's asking for. Work smarter and harder.
One last point -- LUV might not have their name on a stadium, but you might want to ask how much they paid for the 100 x 100 sign in the outfield at the Ballpark in Arlington, and how much they paid for arena advertising inside the old Reunion Arena in Dallas. They sponsor stuff all the time, folks. Perhaps you just don't notice it as much because it is easier to jump on another bandwagon which only looks for the negative....
A slight correction to the mgmt layoff figure Connected1 gave. The 5% only applies to your area. Some areas (including mine) are actually seeing an 8% reduction, while others are seeing 4%. I don't think we'll really know what the final total is until November, when it is all finished (this round is being stretched out over four weeks for all of HDQ).
The first round occurred Tuesday, including some people I knew. And these were I bleed red-white-blue-and-silver people, so for those who might want to rejoice in that, you might want to remember that they too have mortgages and kids to feed, just as the union brothers and sisters do.
I don't expect to see pay cuts either. I know I'm being asked to work harder for each dollar I earn in salary, and I'm OK with that. From what I'm reading in Carty's messages so far, that's all he's asking for. Work smarter and harder.
One last point -- LUV might not have their name on a stadium, but you might want to ask how much they paid for the 100 x 100 sign in the outfield at the Ballpark in Arlington, and how much they paid for arena advertising inside the old Reunion Arena in Dallas. They sponsor stuff all the time, folks. Perhaps you just don't notice it as much because it is easier to jump on another bandwagon which only looks for the negative....
We all have had our cuts. Ramp still had people laid off from 9/11 that were never returned. We just lost another 186 full time employees on the ramp at DFW. I expect more to go in the B Terminal shut down.
As far as hdq not getting their payraises. Our contract went to the employees on 9/10 for a vote. We had to give up a lot. Remember I said 9/10 the day before. I didn't like it and would have voted no, but with 9/11, I knew if we didn't pass it we wouldn't get anything and have to give up a lot more.
If those at hdq dont like the fact that the TWU has rec'd a raise. Res voted not to get unionized. And hey! There are unionized supervisor shops. The pilots are unionized, so can be the CSMs. Another thing unions don't have cost of living raises. Anything we get is because of our productivity gains. You know ol' AA they give a little here and take a lot there.
As far as hdq not getting their payraises. Our contract went to the employees on 9/10 for a vote. We had to give up a lot. Remember I said 9/10 the day before. I didn't like it and would have voted no, but with 9/11, I knew if we didn't pass it we wouldn't get anything and have to give up a lot more.
If those at hdq dont like the fact that the TWU has rec'd a raise. Res voted not to get unionized. And hey! There are unionized supervisor shops. The pilots are unionized, so can be the CSMs. Another thing unions don't have cost of living raises. Anything we get is because of our productivity gains. You know ol' AA they give a little here and take a lot there.
Connected1
Senior
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 332
- Reaction score
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/23/2002 4:37:48 PM bagsmasher wrote:
I wasn't dragging my heals until Carty volunteered a bunch of TWAer's to go ahead of me on the seniority list. I will vote no on any concessions, and will vote no on any contract TWU negotiates.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I don't want to start a discussion about seniority lists because it is important for this board to have more than one topic of discussion. However, the seniority list integration was negotiated between the unions. Carty had nothing to do with it.
Let's return to the topic at hand - the likelihood of concessions.
----------------
On 10/23/2002 4:37:48 PM bagsmasher wrote:
I wasn't dragging my heals until Carty volunteered a bunch of TWAer's to go ahead of me on the seniority list. I will vote no on any concessions, and will vote no on any contract TWU negotiates.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I don't want to start a discussion about seniority lists because it is important for this board to have more than one topic of discussion. However, the seniority list integration was negotiated between the unions. Carty had nothing to do with it.
Let's return to the topic at hand - the likelihood of concessions.
Connected1
Senior
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 332
- Reaction score
- 0
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/24/2002 11:18:46 AM DFWCC wrote:
We all have had our cuts.
----------------
[/blockquote]
True, and I don't think any of us have enjoyed it. However, that doesn't mean the bad times are over. The revenue environment does not look to be improving anytime soon, so we must continue to look closely at our costs. We can get a lot of costs out by working smarter, and we should.
However, IMHO the company should not turn a blind eye to prevailing industry pay rates. We haven't during good times, and shouldn't during bad times. In good times, pay rates generally increase and the ILCs we offer do as well. In bad times, pay rates generally decrease and there is no reason why our future ILCs shouldn't in kind. They will still be ILCs, they just won't be as high as they were.
This is just one of the harsh realities of being a unionized workforce in a highly cyclical industry - it's not worth disrupting operations over.
----------------
On 10/24/2002 11:18:46 AM DFWCC wrote:
We all have had our cuts.
----------------
[/blockquote]
True, and I don't think any of us have enjoyed it. However, that doesn't mean the bad times are over. The revenue environment does not look to be improving anytime soon, so we must continue to look closely at our costs. We can get a lot of costs out by working smarter, and we should.
However, IMHO the company should not turn a blind eye to prevailing industry pay rates. We haven't during good times, and shouldn't during bad times. In good times, pay rates generally increase and the ILCs we offer do as well. In bad times, pay rates generally decrease and there is no reason why our future ILCs shouldn't in kind. They will still be ILCs, they just won't be as high as they were.
This is just one of the harsh realities of being a unionized workforce in a highly cyclical industry - it's not worth disrupting operations over.
Back to the topic at hand... there are plenty of other posts full of grousing about the seniority integration; I'd rather talk about this.
I'm going to propose something REALLY radical... this one will assure that I will get summarily drummed out of the TWU. Ready for this?
How about the TWU members (and all the other unions for that matter) go to their unions and OFFER TO TAKE A PAY CUT?
Let's have the employees go and save the airline, instead of waiting for management to come and threaten, and bluster, and harass, and make things worse. (Yes, bagsmasher, things can get worse. Think about having to take a job for HALF the money you are making. That's what I did when I was furloughed. You're still working with all the nice bennies (flights, insurance, etc., etc.) AFAIK.)
Everybody take a 10% cut (W-2), rolling back to present levels in, say, three years (3%/3%/4%). That gives the airline more breathing room cashwise and may be the lift that we need to keep us out of BK and keep as many of the AA employees working as is possible.
Plus it might convince some of the top-of-scale guys to get out while the getting is good and get some of the junior people back, saving the airline even more money....
I'm sure I am going to get flamed on this idea. But I figured an intelligent, common-sense idea might be welcome around here with all the wind-up artists and trolls posting on this AA board recently...
Peace!
I'm going to propose something REALLY radical... this one will assure that I will get summarily drummed out of the TWU. Ready for this?
How about the TWU members (and all the other unions for that matter) go to their unions and OFFER TO TAKE A PAY CUT?
Let's have the employees go and save the airline, instead of waiting for management to come and threaten, and bluster, and harass, and make things worse. (Yes, bagsmasher, things can get worse. Think about having to take a job for HALF the money you are making. That's what I did when I was furloughed. You're still working with all the nice bennies (flights, insurance, etc., etc.) AFAIK.)
Everybody take a 10% cut (W-2), rolling back to present levels in, say, three years (3%/3%/4%). That gives the airline more breathing room cashwise and may be the lift that we need to keep us out of BK and keep as many of the AA employees working as is possible.
Plus it might convince some of the top-of-scale guys to get out while the getting is good and get some of the junior people back, saving the airline even more money....
I'm sure I am going to get flamed on this idea. But I figured an intelligent, common-sense idea might be welcome around here with all the wind-up artists and trolls posting on this AA board recently...
Peace!
B
bagsmasher
Guest
Connected1 wrote:
I don't want to start a discussion about seniority lists because it is important for this board to have more than one topic of discussion. However, the seniority list integration was negotiated between the unions. Carty had nothing to do with it.
Yes maybe Carty had nothing to with the seniority list integration, but he started this whole fiasco by being the first one to offer the T-dubbers 100% company seniority, thereby putting them ahead of many AAer's on the Company seniority list. This is a wound that may never heal, and has made many realize that they are just a liability with an employee number in the eyes of the Company. If our unions could have just joined forces to stop this purchase, AA would be much better off right now, and it's employees would have a much better attitude.
I don't want to start a discussion about seniority lists because it is important for this board to have more than one topic of discussion. However, the seniority list integration was negotiated between the unions. Carty had nothing to do with it.
Yes maybe Carty had nothing to with the seniority list integration, but he started this whole fiasco by being the first one to offer the T-dubbers 100% company seniority, thereby putting them ahead of many AAer's on the Company seniority list. This is a wound that may never heal, and has made many realize that they are just a liability with an employee number in the eyes of the Company. If our unions could have just joined forces to stop this purchase, AA would be much better off right now, and it's employees would have a much better attitude.
AirplaneFan
Advanced
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 174
- Reaction score
- 0
[P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/24/2002 11:38:14 PM WXGuesser wrote:
[P]Back to the topic at hand... there are plenty of other posts full of grousing about the seniority integration; I'd rather talk about this.[BR][BR]I'm going to propose something REALLY radical... this one will assure that I will get summarily drummed out of the TWU. Ready for this?[BR][BR]How about the TWU members (and all the other unions for that matter) go to their unions and OFFER TO TAKE A PAY CUT? [BR][BR]Let's have the employees go and save the airline, instead of waiting for management to come and threaten, and bluster, and harass, and make things worse. (Yes, bagsmasher, things can get worse. Think about having to take a job for HALF the money you are making. That's what I did when I was furloughed. You're still working with all the nice bennies (flights, insurance, etc., etc.) AFAIK.)[BR][BR]Everybody take a 10% cut (W-2), rolling back to present levels in, say, three years (3%/3%/4%). That gives the airline more breathing room cashwise and may be the lift that we need to keep us out of BK and keep as many of the AA employees working as is possible.[BR][BR]Plus it might convince some of the top-of-scale guys to get out while the getting is good and get some of the junior people back, saving the airline even more money....[BR][BR]I'm sure I am going to get flamed on this idea. But I figured an intelligent, common-sense idea might be welcome around here with all the wind-up artists and trolls posting on this AA board recently...[BR][BR]Peace![BR][BR][BR][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I applaude the initiative .... however the number probably needs to be much bigger (25%) tp dp much good. But the longer AA employees wait the deeper the cuts.[/P]
[BLOCKQUOTE][BR]----------------[BR]On 10/24/2002 11:38:14 PM WXGuesser wrote:
[P]Back to the topic at hand... there are plenty of other posts full of grousing about the seniority integration; I'd rather talk about this.[BR][BR]I'm going to propose something REALLY radical... this one will assure that I will get summarily drummed out of the TWU. Ready for this?[BR][BR]How about the TWU members (and all the other unions for that matter) go to their unions and OFFER TO TAKE A PAY CUT? [BR][BR]Let's have the employees go and save the airline, instead of waiting for management to come and threaten, and bluster, and harass, and make things worse. (Yes, bagsmasher, things can get worse. Think about having to take a job for HALF the money you are making. That's what I did when I was furloughed. You're still working with all the nice bennies (flights, insurance, etc., etc.) AFAIK.)[BR][BR]Everybody take a 10% cut (W-2), rolling back to present levels in, say, three years (3%/3%/4%). That gives the airline more breathing room cashwise and may be the lift that we need to keep us out of BK and keep as many of the AA employees working as is possible.[BR][BR]Plus it might convince some of the top-of-scale guys to get out while the getting is good and get some of the junior people back, saving the airline even more money....[BR][BR]I'm sure I am going to get flamed on this idea. But I figured an intelligent, common-sense idea might be welcome around here with all the wind-up artists and trolls posting on this AA board recently...[BR][BR]Peace![BR][BR][BR][/P]----------------[/BLOCKQUOTE]
[P]I applaude the initiative .... however the number probably needs to be much bigger (25%) tp dp much good. But the longer AA employees wait the deeper the cuts.[/P]
Ok, Here it is again. Most all airline employees in the same classification make about the same. Ramp in DL CO WN AA US and UA the same + or - a few nickles. US goes bk gets lower wages. UA gets concessions then comes CO DL and AA. Guess what? Everyone has lowered their costs and everone again has similar wages. So all that has been accomplished is to lower the wages of all the workers.
The problem remain as it is today. Gosh may be we need more give backs???
How about if all the labor costs are roughly equal and fuel is about the same then maybe, just maybe mngt might have to make some decisions on rtes, aircraft types, psgr srvc, fare sales etc. Ithink you get the idea.
We cannot continue to ask labor for anotherr round of give backs........
The problem remain as it is today. Gosh may be we need more give backs???
How about if all the labor costs are roughly equal and fuel is about the same then maybe, just maybe mngt might have to make some decisions on rtes, aircraft types, psgr srvc, fare sales etc. Ithink you get the idea.
We cannot continue to ask labor for anotherr round of give backs........
to WXGUESSER:
What are your expectations from Management and Carty Himself? Are they going to give up what the lowly employee will give up? People making the big salaries that give up 25% feel little or no pain compared to the $40,000 a year employee giving up 25%. And please, spare me the WELL, 75% OF SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN 100% OF NOTHING spiell!
What are your expectations from Management and Carty Himself? Are they going to give up what the lowly employee will give up? People making the big salaries that give up 25% feel little or no pain compared to the $40,000 a year employee giving up 25%. And please, spare me the WELL, 75% OF SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN 100% OF NOTHING spiell!
B
bagsmasher
Guest
WXGuesser writes:
(Yes, bagsmasher, things can get worse. Think about having to take a job for HALF the money you are making. That's what I did when I was furloughed. You're still working with all the nice bennies (flights, insurance, etc., etc.) AFAIK.)
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
(Yes, bagsmasher, things can get worse. Think about having to take a job for HALF the money you are making. That's what I did when I was furloughed. You're still working with all the nice bennies (flights, insurance, etc., etc.) AFAIK.)
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
Oliver Stone''s Apprentice
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2002
- Messages
- 786
- Reaction score
- 0
[blockquote]
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No disrespect meant, but if you don't care if the company goes under, then why wait to leave?
I'm sure there are people (like WXGuesser and others on this board) who are already on street and care more about the company that would be very happy to be recalled.
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No disrespect meant, but if you don't care if the company goes under, then why wait to leave?
I'm sure there are people (like WXGuesser and others on this board) who are already on street and care more about the company that would be very happy to be recalled.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/25/2002 5:05:09 PM eolesen wrote:
[blockquote]
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No disrespect meant, but if you don't care if the company goes under, then why wait to leave?
I'm sure there are people (like WXGuesser and others on this board) who are already on street and care more about the company that would be very happy to be recalled.
----------------
[/blockquote]
If he quit then he wouldn't be able to continue his whinning. Bags hasn't figured out he is just an employee. AA or any other company isn't going to ask their employees permission to make business decisions. I just don't see where AA is supposedly alienating anyone.
----------------
On 10/25/2002 5:05:09 PM eolesen wrote:
[blockquote]
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No disrespect meant, but if you don't care if the company goes under, then why wait to leave?
I'm sure there are people (like WXGuesser and others on this board) who are already on street and care more about the company that would be very happy to be recalled.
----------------
[/blockquote]
If he quit then he wouldn't be able to continue his whinning. Bags hasn't figured out he is just an employee. AA or any other company isn't going to ask their employees permission to make business decisions. I just don't see where AA is supposedly alienating anyone.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 10/25/2002 5:05:09 PM eolesen wrote:
[blockquote]
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No disrespect meant, but if you don't care if the company goes under, then why wait to leave?
I'm sure there are people (like WXGuesser and others on this board) who are already on street and care more about the company that would be very happy to be recalled.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Bagsmasher, I am sorry that this whole TWA purchase has irrevocably screwed up your life and your enthusiasms for working for AA. It would be wonderful if the mediator had been able to come up with a solution that would have made everyone happy. But that was truly an impossible task. So somebody had to get the shaft, and it ended up being you. That's called life! It's all in how you deal with what gets dealt you. AMR laid me off four days after my wedding, as you know from some of my previous posts. You know what? That was pretty flaming rotten. Am I angry about that at times? Every time I look up and see an AA plane taking off from DFW (just outside my window), it's like somebody kicked me in the chest. But you know what? I am happy, relatively healthy, have a loving wife, and have a job that is keeping me at least just ahead of my creditors, and for those things I am thankful. Please, Mr. Bagsmasher, take a hard look at things and count your blessings. It really could be a lot worse.
As far as the contention about management giving back, take a look around at some of the other posts on this board and others about how to retain management employees. Also, there are a lot of management employees who do not make the country club salaries. Bet you can find a lot of administrative personnel who make around that $40K number. And, I will again needlessly point out that there are a whole lot more Union employees out there than there are management employees.
And on that salary topic; had I been there through all of 2001, I would have made about that $40K number myself (and that's with slurping up every scrap of overtime I could). Would I take a 25% paycut to go back? You bet your sweet (rhymes with brass)!! I LIKED MY JOB! I wanted to be there every day because I *loved* what I did. Plus, even with that paycut, it woud beat the daylights out of working for $22K outside my field like I am now, or working for the sweatshop wages available elsewhere in private industry in my field. And that's in a field where a college degree is REQUIRED. Not that the degree makes me any more important than anyone else who works for the airline, but it does give me the wonderful added budgetary problem of $25-$30K in student loans to pay back...
Eolesen is right, there are lot of people on the outside who would do just about anything to get back inside.
Listen, I know that my idea doesn't exactly toe the union line, but since the only thing the union has done for me since I got laid off has been to offer me a CREDIT CARD (Oh, the delicious irony! Offer me a credit card that I can't afford because the offering party couldn't help protect my job!!)... I would love to know if there are other furloughed employees out there who are getting these calls. Note to any TWU officials reading this board: Might want to edit your call lists; you are torquing people like me off by rubbing our faces further in our furloughs.
Anyway, I will stop ranting for the moment... Peace, all!!!!
----------------
On 10/25/2002 5:05:09 PM eolesen wrote:
[blockquote]
I don't think you understand, I'm so infuriated that I don't care if AA goes under. I'm just disgusted I spent so many years working for a company that alienates so many of their employees. When it goes under, it will force me to go into another line of work, and I guarantee it won't be for an airline.
----------------
[/blockquote]
No disrespect meant, but if you don't care if the company goes under, then why wait to leave?
I'm sure there are people (like WXGuesser and others on this board) who are already on street and care more about the company that would be very happy to be recalled.
----------------
[/blockquote]
Bagsmasher, I am sorry that this whole TWA purchase has irrevocably screwed up your life and your enthusiasms for working for AA. It would be wonderful if the mediator had been able to come up with a solution that would have made everyone happy. But that was truly an impossible task. So somebody had to get the shaft, and it ended up being you. That's called life! It's all in how you deal with what gets dealt you. AMR laid me off four days after my wedding, as you know from some of my previous posts. You know what? That was pretty flaming rotten. Am I angry about that at times? Every time I look up and see an AA plane taking off from DFW (just outside my window), it's like somebody kicked me in the chest. But you know what? I am happy, relatively healthy, have a loving wife, and have a job that is keeping me at least just ahead of my creditors, and for those things I am thankful. Please, Mr. Bagsmasher, take a hard look at things and count your blessings. It really could be a lot worse.
As far as the contention about management giving back, take a look around at some of the other posts on this board and others about how to retain management employees. Also, there are a lot of management employees who do not make the country club salaries. Bet you can find a lot of administrative personnel who make around that $40K number. And, I will again needlessly point out that there are a whole lot more Union employees out there than there are management employees.
And on that salary topic; had I been there through all of 2001, I would have made about that $40K number myself (and that's with slurping up every scrap of overtime I could). Would I take a 25% paycut to go back? You bet your sweet (rhymes with brass)!! I LIKED MY JOB! I wanted to be there every day because I *loved* what I did. Plus, even with that paycut, it woud beat the daylights out of working for $22K outside my field like I am now, or working for the sweatshop wages available elsewhere in private industry in my field. And that's in a field where a college degree is REQUIRED. Not that the degree makes me any more important than anyone else who works for the airline, but it does give me the wonderful added budgetary problem of $25-$30K in student loans to pay back...
Eolesen is right, there are lot of people on the outside who would do just about anything to get back inside.
Listen, I know that my idea doesn't exactly toe the union line, but since the only thing the union has done for me since I got laid off has been to offer me a CREDIT CARD (Oh, the delicious irony! Offer me a credit card that I can't afford because the offering party couldn't help protect my job!!)... I would love to know if there are other furloughed employees out there who are getting these calls. Note to any TWU officials reading this board: Might want to edit your call lists; you are torquing people like me off by rubbing our faces further in our furloughs.
Anyway, I will stop ranting for the moment... Peace, all!!!!
- Status
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
American files with Supreme Court to overturn AA/JB Alliance- Latest: ThirdSeatHero
-
-
-
-
-
Alaska Airlines F/A's vote in favor of a new contract- Latest: Jalsporteam