AA Management Bonuses - Despite More Losses

[Wretched Wrench]

I guess executive compensation in this country is not overinflated!

In 1980, CEO pay was 42 times average worker pay in the US.

In 1991 it was 140 times the average worker pay.

In 1998, it was 419 times the average worker pay.

By 2003 it was over 500 times.

And that is just what can be ferreted out by outside researchers.

What do you think it is today?

 

[Bob Owens]

What, no bag slingers in MIA were convicted of drug charges <_< . I guess only the "good ole boys network" are corrupt :wub:

Who hired them?

By the way you didnt answer the question.

What exactly are the educational requirements to be a CEO?

Maybe pilots and mechanics are not paid as fairly as you say.

 

[TWU informer]

In 1980, CEO pay was 42 times average worker pay in the US.

In 1991 it was 140 times the average worker pay.

In 1998, it was 419 times the average worker pay.

By 2003 it was over 500 times.

And that is just what can be ferreted out by outside researchers.

What do you think it is today?

But since it appears that bonuses are now a "proven way of life" in big business, we are just suppose to roll-over and give up concessions to find this way of life, and by the year 2010 it will be 1500 times the average worker pay.

Can you believe some of the arguements that have been presented in this thread to justify the continuance of such management bonus non-sense?

Can you believe that our Union Leadership sits on their hands and does nothing to demand this be changed?

Let's face it, we are screwed and need to either revolt or shut-up.

 

[scorpion]

<_< You know Mr. Former ModerAAtor, I just can't have too much simpathy for this bonus program! In the last five years, I've seen millions of Dollars worth of "old", but servicable tooling just thrown out as trash!You dismantaled one of the best APU shopes in the country! We,(MCI) put in proposals to save millions on 767 warrenty work from Boeing that was outsourced because aa didn't have the tooling to do the work. But we did!!!When it was brought to the attention of those in power in TUL, their answeer was to come to MCI and tear that equipment out!!! Now who's Brother in Law's little deal did we uncover there!?? :down:

MCI I read more than I post anymore but your statement on throwing out tooling struck a nerve. The same thing happened here in Tulsa. Someone in management came up with a program called the 5 S system, I would tell you what 5 S stands for but we have so many programs and commities going on anymore its too much to keep up with all the abreviations. Bottom line its a house cleaning program (that I'm sure some manager came up with to justify his existance) that removes unused items ie: tooling,parts etc. We got rid of all the 727 engine tooling along with hardware and parts. All this was done against the wishes of the mechanics. Thrust reversers were destroyed by our stock clerk with a backhoe.
Now we have this big push for 3rd party work and guess what? We got rid of all our tooling for the JT8-9 engines but i'm sure some manager got a pat on the back for a great house cleaning program!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I guess executive compensation in this country is not overinflated!

Today's El Lay Times has an article entitled, "No dearth of Greed and Graft in 2005". It is kind of a reprise of CEO shenanigans this year.

The author says executive compensation went up 12.6% this year.

.

 

[Bear96]

So your choices are:

1) Sit here and kvetch about the unfairness of it all; or

2) Get out there and get yourself qualified for a job like that that pays well.

 

[Hopeful]

So your choices are:

1) Sit here and kvetch about the unfairness of it all; or

2) Get out there and get yourself qualified for a job like that that pays well.

You don't get it, do you?

The companies are crying about losses and the need to cut costs, but when the pain is dished out, management is exempt!

No one is denying the increase in compensation when one advances. But do you think it is fair, let alone moral, to rape the employees continually only to reward the CEO for having ordered the gang rape?


By the way, Manager Bear, what are your thoughts on compensation for the lowly aircraft mechanic?

 

[AirLUVer]

In 1980, CEO pay was 42 times average worker pay in the US.

In 1991 it was 140 times the average worker pay.

In 1998, it was 419 times the average worker pay.

By 2003 it was over 500 times.

And that is just what can be ferreted out by outside researchers.

What do you think it is today?

Avg employee pay is $40,000 that times 500 is $20,000,000.00 per year. Find me a CEO that makes 20,000,000 per year PLEASE, i wanna buy stock in that company if it has enough to give that much to its management.

 

[Bear96]

You don't get it, do you?

...

No one is denying the increase in compensation when one advances. But do you think it is fair, let alone moral, to rape the employees continually only to reward the CEO for having ordered the gang rape?

I think you are the one who is not getting my point. I'll try again.

Where did I ever say it was "fair"? Of course it isn't "fair"! But it is reality. For various reasons, many beyond its own control, the labor movement has failed utterly in convincing people that something should be done about the unfairness you speak of. So the only thing left is to deal with it. Pining endlessly about the way things ought to be and getting bitter about it changes nothing.

The companies are crying about losses and the need to cut costs, but when the pain is dished out, management is exempt!

Right. So do you want to be on the side that continually takes the brunt of the pain, or do you want to be on the "exempt" side? I got tired of taking the pain and so went back to school to be on the "exempt" side, as you put it (though it is not really "exempt" except for a very few at the tippy top -- but it is probably futile to try to explan that to someone who sees the world in black and white and thinks anyone in a "management" position is automatically greedy and evil and who uses "Manager" as if it's an insult -- the mindset is just too firmly entrenched to hope that any light can get through to the brain matter). I am joining a field that is widely thought in the public mind to be wayyyyyy overpaid. And it feels good to be on that side of the fence for a change.

By the way, Manager Bear, what are your thoughts on compensation for the lowly aircraft mechanic?

This is the danger in saying someone is "overpaid." Many people can probably make the same claim about you. It is really a subjective, meaningless term. Is someone compensated "too much" or "too little" -- compared to what? When does "more" become "too much," and "less" become "too little"? Who cares what I or anyone else thinks about a certain job paying "too much" or "too little"?

My thoughts on compensation for mechanics, and for every other position, is that the labor market decides what is appropriate compensation. If you are showing up for work for what your employer is offering, you apparently think the pay is fair, or it is the best you can do given your education and skills. If you think you are being paid "too little," walk off the job to that better job you no doubt have been hired for at more appropriate compensation since, of course, you did your homework first and know just what your education and skills are worth in the general labor market.

If you are quickly and easily replaced (a la NW), that means there are lots of qualified people willing to take the job at that rate, and the labor market says you weren't paid "too little" after all. Oops.

If there are not enough qualified people to fill in the hole you left, the employer will adjust compensation upwards accordingly.

It's harsh, it's brilliant in its simplicity and brutal efficiency, it sucks for many airline employees these days, but it's reality.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Avg employee pay is $40,000 that times 500 is $20,000,000.00 per year. Find me a CEO that makes 20,000,000 per year PLEASE, i wanna buy stock in that company if it has enough to give that much to its management.

I guess you doubt the numbers I quoted. they all came from mainstream sources, and are seen often in the press.

However, they never say what the average worker's pay really is. I suspect it is lower than the 40K you use for your calculations. BTW, my post was in response to a post reflecting on executive compensation in the USA, and not just AAL.

BUT.......regardless of the dollar amounts, the gap between executive pay and workers' pay is widening at a frightening rate. Some of this is the result of an ever-increasing oversupply of labor and a reduction in the number of available jobs. Jobs are leaving the country almost as fast as cheap labor is streaming into the country and reproducing. In my own field, this is augmented by the trend of airline maintenance being done by unlicensed, untrained, inexperienced, illiterate, illegal and unskilled persons. I am totally amazed that the flying public flies on airplanes that are maintained by people that they would not allow to work on their car, or even their lawn mower. Your citing of NW replacing their mechs with "qualified people" is a sad commentary of how the uninformed view this situation. With the exception of the NWA workers who stayed, the mechs there are the dregs and gypsies of the workforce. Losers who couldn't get or keep a real job anywhere else. Some are downright dangerous, both to other employees and the traveling public. It is a tribute to the manufacturers that those planes do not have a higher failure rate. The time is approaching when the US will have an aviation safety record similar to that of Russia, or the countries on the Department of Defense's do not fly list for employees. Some of those countries are the same countries that maintain US airliners.

.

 

[Ch. 12]

I guess you doubt the numbers I quoted. they all came from mainstream sources, and are seen often in the press.

Wretched Wrench-

For the sake of all of us that actually make sure we paste factual numbers here, please don't post real numbers if you cannot cite their source. That makes it seem like a real fabrication...especially when, as AirLUVer points out, the resulting #'s aren't even anywhere near factual. Even if $40k is too high for the average (is it really? I don't know) you can bet your tail that it is higher than $20k which would leave CEO salaries at $10M...AVERAGE. That also is not at all close to reality. Your attempt to justify your numbers by saying that they are from "mainstream sources...seen often in the press" conveys that you fabricated them to make a point. I agree with your point that they are overpaid but tend to think that the facts lie much lower than what you cite unless you can actually give us a source. If it is something you just happen on "often in the press", I think you must have a photographic memory to be able to rattle off numbers like that.

Please stick to truth on these boards or at least admit when the numbers are not citeable. I more than welcome you posting a link or source but don't ask me why..."mainstream sources...seen often in the press" seems kind of like a WMD arguement with vague sources. IOW...fiction presented inaccurately as non-fiction to make a case.

Again...I agree with you 100% that CEOs don't need to make extortionary salaries when a company is failing but I'm not willing to post fake numbers and present them as fact without backing them up when asked. I will gladly apologize if you post a real citation. You see...most people on these boards actually post a link or cite the source when presenting something as exact as what you did. To do otherwise makes you looks like a story teller.

-ch. 12

 

[AirLUVer]

I guess you doubt the numbers I quoted. they all came from mainstream sources, and are seen often in the press.

However, they never say what the average worker's pay really is. I suspect it is lower than the 40K you use for your calculations. BTW, my post was in response to a post reflecting on executive compensation in the USA, and not just AAL.

BUT....... Your citing of NW replacing their mechs with "qualified people" is a sad commentary of how the uninformed view this situation. With the exception of the NWA workers who stayed, the mechs there are the dregs and gypsies of the workforce. Losers who couldn't get or keep a real job anywhere else. Some are downright dangerous, both to other employees and the traveling public. It is a tribute to the manufacturers that those planes do not have a higher failure rate. The time is approaching when the US will have an aviation safety record similar to that of Russia, or the countries on the Department of Defense's do not fly list for employees. Some of those countries are the same countries that maintain US airliners.

.

You may want to site your sources regarding pay figuring an very low avg pay rate of $8.00 (about what someone working at Walmart or McDonalds averages) the annual salary is $16,640 x 500 = $8,320,000.00.

I did not mention anything about outsourced workers. What was mentioned by Bear96 that if you do not feel you are being properly compensated for the job you do, quit and find a job that does compensate you properly.

 

[B.O.B.]

In 1980, CEO pay was 42 times average worker pay in the US.

In 1991 it was 140 times the average worker pay.

In 1998, it was 419 times the average worker pay.

By 2003 it was over 500 times.

And that is just what can be ferreted out by outside researchers.

What do you think it is today?

And you Kool-AAid drinkers wonder why us pro-union hardcores are so pissed off!

 

[FWAAA]

You mean when they were feigning BK? How about the fact that its still less 20% of its one time high?

This shareholder is not happy with the way a few at the top decide to reward themselves, more than likely a majority of the shareholders feel the same way.

Thats assuming that those shares were available. I believe that you have also stated that we could have bought the company back then, thats assumining that the majority of the holders of AMR were willing to sell at $1.25/share.

They deserve a bonus because we gave up compensation, work more for less and more people decided to fly? Then why dont they take paycuts when the opposite happens?

Mr Owens, we've been over this before, but here it is again. The historic daily volume and price data of AMR stock can be found here:

http://www.shareholder.com/aa/stock.cfm

Millions of shares traded each day in early 2003 for less than $2/sh.

For example:

March 11, 2003; Nearly 14 million shares opened at $2.40, closed at $1.59.

March 12, 2003; 16.4 million shares opened at $1.60, closed at $1.41, touched $1.25 that day.

March 13, 2003; 27.3 million shares opened at $1.48, closed at $1.50, touched $1.36 and $1.60 that day.

In those three days alone, trading volume was greater than one-third the outstanding shares (about 150 million shares outstanding that quarter).

It kept up for several more days.

Were the shares available for those prices? Yep. Lots of them, as the scared sold to the risk-takers who knew the employees' concessions would be approved (either legitimately or not) - "imposed" is probably a better word.

A majority of the company at $1.25? Not quite that cheap, but more like two-thirds of the outstanding shares traded for less than $2/sh during March, 2003. Too bad employees were busy whining about PIN numbers instead of taking care of their retirement by loading up on the cheap.

 

[Ch. 12]

And you Kool-AAid drinkers wonder why us pro-union hardcores are so pissed off!

It's easy to get pissed off at made up numbers.

Did you know that there were 100 billion fatalaties due to bird strikes last year? That is down 97% so things are getting better. Don't ask me to cite my sources but those are the numbers I wish to post to present a point.

Talk about drinking kool-aid...fake numbers are the purset kool-aid you can find! I've even noticed Wretched Wrench lurking back here several times but no retort for the WMD numbers that were posted and that you have chosen to blindly subscribe to. Yeah...no wonder the hardcores are so pissed...so eager to find something to get pissed about that made up numbers will do.