Just a "Little" Lie

[Boomer]

eolesen wasn't addressing the right of the TWU to take action against Conley, eolesen was responding to the incorrect legal conclusion posted by Boomer - that Conley had committed actionable failure to exercise his duty of fair representation. As a legal matter, it's unlikely that a DFR violation occurred.

FWAA,

It is your opinion, agreed to by eolesen, that Conley did not committ a DFR; there has been no finding of fact to substantiate your position.

I would submitt the following:

1) The TWU International has the power to sign off on all but first contracts it negotiates(Argued and Answered affirmatively before the Federal Bench in Lower Manhattan.)

2) The TWU International alone retains the right to place International Officers into and out of the TWU International: the TWU International has refused the membership at large the ability to directly elect or remove the Individuals with the sole ability to negotiate and ratify contracts which dictate the wages, hours of work and working conditions for represented members.

3) The TWU International Leadership is insulated, economically and politically, from the results of conditions which they alone legally claim the power to ratify.

4) The TWU has had AA terminate employees for non-payment of dues: every represented employee must remit two hours of pay per month or be terminated.

5) The presence of Conley at the aviation symposium was as an International Representative of the TWU, not as an Economist, Financial Analyst or Bag Chucker Supreme.

6) The TWU is currently negotiating contracts whose outcome is bound soley by the determination of the TWU International.

7) The statements attributed to Conley and published in the Star Telegram by Trebor Barnstetter were not made during the course of negotiations or fixing of labor agreements concerning wages, hours of work or working conditions. However, given that this was a meeting of, for, and by the aviation industry; the statements have a material impact on those negotiations given that they could reasonably be taken as:
a) the state of mind for one with the responsibility for making agreements;
b) reasonably related to non-disclosable information shared between the company and the union;
c) resonably related to internal discussions within the TWU International.

8) The suspension of Conley, by Little, is arguably ratification of my opinion as opposed to yours given the complete disregard with which the TWU International has held the membership with resepect to direct election of officers, control of contracts and representation of affected title groups.

The performance standard for fiduciary duty tasked upon Agents is most arguably premised on the degree of control exerted by the Agent: in the case of the TWU, the control is total.

 

[Bob Owens]

There's a pretty broad difference between DFR and attorney-client privilege...

The point is that they both have an obligation to the people they represent. They should not be making arguements for the other side.

Go read a transcript or description of the entire exchange, or talk to people who were in the audience (which I did), and maybe you'll see why I and many others see this as a typical uninformed knee-jerk reaction to a soundbyte. In context, it's nowhere near as damning as y'all make it out to be.

I would say that the "sound bite" only confirmed what many suspected all along. The man is not competant for the job.

 

[eolesen]

Oil prices are an inescapable factor for airlines, and the ability to raise airfares over the past five years have been hamstrung by a lot of factors, the least of which is people not having enough disposable income as they did three years ago.

Inability to cover costs has already resulted in three shutdowns last week, and a fourth next month when Champion parks their three-holers.

Raising fares and adding surcharges would appear logical, but it only goes so far before it cuts demand. Buying plane tickets isn't as critical as it is to fill up the tank of your daily driver.

Cutting demand will either force downsizing or cause more business failures (both of which will happen), which in turn kills off some of labor's traditional negotiating power.

That's the point Conley was responding to...

"Maybe we need to do more short-term leasing agreements. Maybe a less extreme version of Gary [Chase]'s hypothetical in which everyone's compensation has to be tied to economics. Everyone from the CEO to the plumber. We may be a different percentage of GDP, but we're still going to be stuck in this problem until we have more of our costs tied to economic variables. Costs need to be more agile."

Sounds like a great idea. Pegging CEO and wrench pay to the same formula. That's about as out of the box as it gets. CEO goes up, wrench pay goes up...

Later, he said

"Look, we're at $100 crude. I don't know that it bodes well for us being as successful as we had once hoped."

"This could well be a seismic year this year or next year."

"[Fuel] could produce a seismic shift. Depending upon the outcome, we could have conversations about maybe not being as intractable as people have been in the past."

I know it galls you to think that being intractable isn't an option (I can just see NHBB's steaming right about now as he reaches to click the "add reply" button....), but it doesn't take a fake degree or an MBA to figure out how deep the airlines pockets really are.

Before Conley's comment, there was a poll taken of the audience on how difficult the climate would be for labor negotiations. 74% said difficult. 25% said typical. A few people said calm (what planet are they on?...).

They seem to get it, and it was a mixed audience of management, analysts, and union members (ALPA was well represented at the Symposium).

So, did he step outside the traditional "see-no-evil-hear-no-evil" union mentality? Absolutely. And someone who is willing to think outside the box is exactly the type of person you want negotiating for you.

Instead, your fearful and someone ignorant leaders sidelined him.

Your loss....

 

[Boomer]

Oil prices are an inescapable factor for airlines, and the ability to raise airfares over the past five years have been hamstrung by a lot of factors, the least of which is people not having enough disposable income as they did three years ago.

Inability to cover costs has already resulted in three shutdowns last week, and a fourth next month when Champion parks their three-holers.

Raising fares and adding surcharges would appear logical, but it only goes so far before it cuts demand. Buying plane tickets isn't as critical as it is to fill up the tank of your daily driver.

Cutting demand will either force downsizing or cause more business failures (both of which will happen), which in turn kills off some of labor's traditional negotiating power.

That's the point Conley was responding to...



Sounds like a great idea. Pegging CEO and wrench pay to the same formula. That's about as out of the box as it gets. CEO goes up, wrench pay goes up...

Later, he said



I know it galls you to think that being intractable isn't an option (I can just see NHBB's steaming right about now as he reaches to click the "add reply" button....), but it doesn't take a fake degree or an MBA to figure out how deep the airlines pockets really are.

Before Conley's comment, there was a poll taken of the audience on how difficult the climate would be for labor negotiations. 74% said difficult. 25% said typical. A few people said calm (what planet are they on?...).

They seem to get it, and it was a mixed audience of management, analysts, and union members (ALPA was well represented at the Symposium).

So, did he step outside the traditional "see-no-evil-hear-no-evil" union mentality? Absolutely. And someone who is willing to think outside the box is exactly the type of person you want negotiating for you.

Instead, your fearful and someone ignorant leaders sidelined him.

Your loss....

Keep it up.

AA will meet the contractual demands and more soon. That goes for APA, APFA, and TWU.
Just bring in your demands and Arpey will sign next week or next month.

Of course the $5 Billion in cash will be gone in less than 4 months and after a BK filing you will lose your incredible pension to the PGBC and when you stop to count up who won, dissappointment will fill your bubble.

Had Conley expressed himself outside of the box, he willingly occupied, through acceptance of a job other than with the TWU International demanded, he could have avoided a DFR performing the strong man act for a TWU International:
-that is not elected through an actual membership vote;
-that is not representational of the TWU International mindset of we decide: you apply;
-that is not functionally representative;
-that is not capable of withstanding a fair decertification vote;
-that is not capable of writing full language

 

[Hackman]

Oil prices are an inescapable factor for airlines, and the ability to raise airfares over the past five years have been hamstrung by a lot of factors, the least of which is people not having enough disposable income as they did three years ago.

Inability to cover costs has already resulted in three shutdowns last week, and a fourth next month when Champion parks their three-holers.

Raising fares and adding surcharges would appear logical, but it only goes so far before it cuts demand. Buying plane tickets isn't as critical as it is to fill up the tank of your daily driver.

Cutting demand will either force downsizing or cause more business failures (both of which will happen), which in turn kills off some of labor's traditional negotiating power.

That's the point Conley was responding to...



Sounds like a great idea. Pegging CEO and wrench pay to the same formula. That's about as out of the box as it gets. CEO goes up, wrench pay goes up...

Later, he said



I know it galls you to think that being intractable isn't an option (I can just see NHBB's steaming right about now as he reaches to click the "add reply" button....), but it doesn't take a fake degree or an MBA to figure out how deep the airlines pockets really are.

Before Conley's comment, there was a poll taken of the audience on how difficult the climate would be for labor negotiations. 74% said difficult. 25% said typical. A few people said calm (what planet are they on?...).

They seem to get it, and it was a mixed audience of management, analysts, and union members (ALPA was well represented at the Symposium).

So, did he step outside the traditional "see-no-evil-hear-no-evil" union mentality? Absolutely. And someone who is willing to think outside the box is exactly the type of person you want negotiating for you.

Instead, your fearful and someone ignorant leaders sidelined him.

Your loss....

"Our loss" is right CompAAny Man eOrr, (Yeah, you remind me of W.Pooh's buddy), we have the twu..... which has had nothing but concessionary contracts for it's membership for nearly three decades (but not themselves of course, no way). What happened in 1995? Or 1989? or before that? What was the company unions' excuse then? I forget. But it always something the CompAAny decries to its lapdog as "difficult", or "intractable", or "ecomomic factors", or some other management blather of how the twu International compAAny union must sell us another 6 year POS concessionary contract because of....(insert reason here). Same sh*t, different year. "Traditional negotiating power"....pffft, never seen that with the twu.

However, here we are in April again, and what do you suppose will happen on the 16th in the shiney elite offices of CenterPork???? Yeah, the vaunted few hundred will again line their greedy pockets with the dirty millions.... because....well, we can you little worker maggots. Fear of fuel prices don't seem to be a factor at the aa bone-us factory do they eOrr??? Will they worry about the exploding costs of (insert item here) while they cash in??? Of course not. That $200 plus million would pay for alot of fuel, or a some new equipment, or reinvest in the "American Airlines Family" har, har. Those cost emergencies are just for the press corps and the union low lifes, not for us.

I certainly can't hear managements or the twu compAAny lackeys sniveling whine about fuel costs while they continue to "show us the greed". Conley or little Jimmy won't be getting a pay cut from the six figure unelected twu salaries (hell, Conley might another big money Jeff Brundage soon, he screwed Eagle very well). So to most of us on the front making airplanes fly; fuel costs, aircraft costs, landing fees, or the cost of the gold toilet paper in Ourpays' office is a moot point.......can't hear you..... the sound of all that cash falling in their pocket is just too loud. So sorry. Don't seem to be anyone I talk too that can hear the whine of CenterPork or it's twu lackeys in the International. Just lots of noise, nothing intelliable. Out of touch? Don't care anymore, because no one in upper managment seems to either.

So to the twu company union lAAckey International ......Perform or another card drive (our own this time) is coming. No more excuses, period.... or your out. Represent your Vegas card dealers.

To the lying AA greedy management..... If the company fails, look in the mirror. YOU poisoned any goodwill with your dispicable and selfish actions. We all hate to see this happen, but the workers have done more than our part, and you have done nothing but lie, cheat, steal, and line your pockets. If it's over, so be it.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

When are these guys going to cut the fear-mongering and get to work hammering out a new contract?

I have never understood why organized labor consistently shoots itself in the foot with stuff like this (the APA billboard is another prime example). If they are so resolute on the destruction of their company, they may just get their wish.

 

[Hackman]

When are these guys going to cut the fear-mongering and get to work hammering out a new contract?

I have never understood why organized labor consistently shoots itself in the foot with stuff like this (the APA billboard is another prime example). If they are so resolute on the destruction of their company, they may just get their wish.

Fear mongering? They (twu) just put out what the company tells them too. Seen it for way too long. Even in the fairly good times the twu company union has always had an excuse of why they can't do what they are paid for.

Now as far as "destruction" of the company. Look to CenterPork (thats managements' palace) for the blame, not the workers. We did what was asked and much more. No one wishs for a failure or bankruptcy, but it seems management can't manage. If you own a business, you can't keep lining your pockets with bonuses while you lose money and expect your employees to accept it.

The workers can no longer subsidize the publics demand for $99 flights and the management highlife.

 

[eolesen]

Hey, I'd rather see the $200M go buy a weeks worth of fuel as well. Compared to past years, there hasn't been much discussion aside from the occasional jab on this forum, so I wouldn't say the bonuses are a sure thing yet.

AA's in a much different situation than they were in 2006 and 2007. They were still cautiously optimistic for a profitability as late as the start of 4Q07. But red ink is starting to flow, with no end in sight. If there's any sense of fiduciary responsibility left on the compensation committee, they'll vote to forego the bonus payments.

If that happens, you know each of the unions will be falling over themselves to try and take all the credit for forcing management to do it....


FFCA, unions need the fear mongering to justify their existence. AA's not exactly clean in the labor relations department, but the time has definitely come for some out of the box thinking from both parties.

Things are only going to get uglier over the next year as far as the economy goes, and the fact that three airlines evaporated in the period of six days should be sending the message that the rules have changed. Apparently not, since there are still people on this board who firmly believe that the labor they rent to the airlines will still be in demand. I'm not so convinced.

Contrary to popular belief and past practice, consolidation didn't save ATA or Aloha, who were 35 and 62 year old companies respectively.

What's to say that if one of the larger airlines falters that there will be someone willing to step in? Certainly, alll of the investment banks have a stake in several carriers, so letting one or two fail outright (much as Pan Am and Eastern were allowed to do during the 1991 recession) could be the tide that the rest of the boats rise upon...

If AA were to run out of cash, the likelihood of over half their fleet being permanently parked is pretty high. The 777's and 738's are of value, and so are a percentage of the 757's, but nobody in North America is actively looking for MD80's and 767's right now. Those jobs will simply evaporate until such a time that oil subsides to about half its current price, which is probably never.

 

[Bob Owens]

If there's any sense of fiduciary responsibility left on the compensation committee, they'll vote to forego the bonus payments.

If that happens, you know each of the unions will be falling over themselves to try and take all the credit for forcing management to do it....

Well we know the TWU will, and management will be banking on it. Then management will ask for their quid pro quo. "We gave up something we should not have recieved in the first palce so what are you going to give up?"

Things are only going to get uglier over the next year as far as the economy goes, and the fact that three airlines evaporated in the period of six days should be sending the message that the rules have changed.

Three small carriers dissapeared, so what? Even in good times airlines disappear, most of us worked at one or more of them at one time in our careers. I've worked for Capitol, Air Florida, New York Air, Arrow Air, Airbourne Express and a few I cant recall. Over the last 28 years, despite scores of liquidations the industry has grown, not contracted, productivity has increased, however, in direct contrast to econ101 wages have gone down.

Apparently not, since there are still people on this board who firmly believe that the labor they rent to the airlines will still be in demand. I'm not so convinced.

As long as there is an airline industry there will be a demand for workers that are felony-free, drug-free have a 10 year verifiable background and posess unique, specialized skills.

Contrary to popular belief and past practice, consolidation didn't save ATA or Aloha, who were 35 and 62 year old companies respectively.

Sure they were old but they were small. Their closure had little impact to overall commerce.

What's to say that if one of the larger airlines falters that there will be someone willing to step in? Certainly, alll of the investment banks have a stake in several carriers, so letting one or two fail outright (much as Pan Am and Eastern were allowed to do during the 1991 recession) could be the tide that the rest of the boats rise upon...

True, but whoever is left will need more workers. EAL and Pan Am workers went on to AA, UAL Continental etc. Just goes to prove how fruitless making sacrifices are. In the end those carriers failed anyway and all they had to show for their sacrifices was less years at their new employer,lower lifetime earnings, a smaller pension and less seniority. Better if everyone had simply said "NO" to concessions, let the weak ones fail sooner rather than later and get restarted somewhere else. they would have higher lifetime earnings and bigger pensions if they had. Paycuts and concessions never "saved" an airline, all they ever did was make us poorer.

If AA were to run out of cash, the likelihood of over half their fleet being permanently parked is pretty high. The 777's and 738's are of value, and so are a percentage of the 757's, but nobody in North America is actively looking for MD80's and 767's right now.

Running out of cash or not half the fleet is headed there anyway, because they are old. Nothing new, thats the way this industry has always been.

Those jobs will simply evaporate until such a time that oil subsides to about half its current price, which is probably never.

Oil has to be cut in half? If thats the case why arent those jobs already gone and why were the airlines still hiring when the price of oil was well over your "half" benchmark??

 

[FWAAA]

FWAA,

It is your opinion, agreed to by eolesen, that Conley did not committ a DFR; there has been no finding of fact to substantiate your position.

Likewise with your opinion. My opinion is that, as a matter of law, he did not violate his DFR. You disagree. Maybe you're right, but I doubt it.

8) The suspension of Conley, by Little, is arguably ratification of my opinion as opposed to yours given the complete disregard with which the TWU International has held the membership with resepect to direct election of officers, control of contracts and representation of affected title groups.

Isn't Little the one with the fake degrees?

As I posted before, Conley's words angered you and many other TWU members. Little is certainly within his rights to reassign Conley. But neither supports a view that Conley's words will support a successful lawsuit. But file anyway. Nobody's stopping you. B)

 

[Bagbelt]

The reason I started looking for another job last summer was the exchange of "ideas" between Arpey and Little. I remember reading about a $300 bonus for 3 years in exchange for 10 years (55- medicare) of retiree medical. I remember the admin. people being extremely upset that they lost their retiree med. a couple of years ago. For HR to say that isn't being tossed about when it's allready been done to other groups is at best wishful thinking. Out of 15 years 10 of them have been at 1.5% annual with the loss of much of my benefits. There is much I love about AA and will miss, but unless you are within 10 years of retirement you better have a plan B. The lack of any snap-back language which would have made negotiations moot was nothing less than throwing the towel in 5 years ago.

 

[Boomer]

Likewise with your opinion. My opinion is that, as a matter of law, he did not violate his DFR. You disagree. Maybe you're right, but I doubt it.

Isn't Little the one with the fake degrees?

As I posted before, Conley's words angered you and many other TWU members. Little is certainly within his rights to reassign Conley. But neither supports a view that Conley's words will support a successful lawsuit. But file anyway. Nobody's stopping you. B)

You and I both know that the TWU cured the DFR with Littles "removal" of Conley and the subsequent apology from Conley delivered system-wide. There is, now, no harm that can be proved while negotiations are ongoing.

The degree to which James Little, TWU International President, may be the recipient of degrees that fail to pass accrediation standards is no more a factor than those who claim to be capitalists whilst hiding beneath the skirts of the courts and spending time under the desks of Congress to swallow a bailout for imprudent business decisions while swallowing a denial of those same benefits to the citizenry.