A321T

[traderjake]

One of the US F/As that posts here (etops1) even agrees with me and and said he/she has seen crews doing the inflight "service" wearing flip flops. Nothing against senior experienced F/As but the US international crews I had on my two and only two flights definitely seemed checked out and uninterested being there serving customers.

 
The bad ones treat the flight crews the same way. 

 

[737823]

I will say I have had some good shuttle crews I think based in PHL that are professional and seem to be from the era that USAIR was an okay airline. I like the DCA Shuttle it is very convenient and reliable for me.

Josh

 

[jcw]

I am not sure of the reason for the hostility. People have repeatedly noted that AA didn’t want the cargo revenue or the coach passengers that AA is walking away from. I merely reopened the thread to note that, as I predicted, cargo moved almost entirely from AA to DL even though DL is using 5 763s per day on JFK-LAX compared to 10 or so 762s on AA.
Actually, AA isn’t trying something different – UA did the same thing several years ago. The only difference is that AA is using the 321.
I am not assuming the 321 is a disaster at all – but I am noting that there are basic strategic and economic principles that a number of people here have yet to answer.
 
And the reason is simply that revenue falls off much faster than costs when you use a smaller aircraft. Sure the 321 will cost less to operate than the 762s but the equation should always have included other options.
The biggest strategic unknown – beyond the costs - is that there really is no successful example of a carrier operating as a niche carrier in someone else’s hubs. AA is not only attempting to be a niche carrier in NYC by not flying many of the routes that DL and UA will fly nonstop – but also many that B6 will fly as well – but on the transcons, AA is becoming a niche within a niche by not serving many of the coach passengers who have long been loyal to AA – they cut away a big portion of their customer base.
There was never any doubt – at least in mind – that AA could build a very high quality product. Lie flat products have been put on the 757 and the 321 has the advantage of being a wider cabin aircraft and have lower fuel burn.
But many costs – such as pilots - are not proportionately reduced by carrying fewer passengers.
And, whether AA can turn a 321 faster than DL can turn a 757 or 767, they do not. They use the same ground times if not longer than DL uses. Given that DL boards and deplanes twice as many people as AA’s 321s but thru two aisles, the 767 has very little real disadvantage in terms of turn times.
Plz let me know of a market where a carrier has higher frequency but less capacity and has the dominant share of the market over a competitor.
You and others are throwing your weight behind AA’s strategy even though it is not proven and is actually contrary to fundamental airline network principles which say that the carrier that has the most capacity has a revenue advantage.
I know that UA is not in the same position at JFK as AA but the only thing that AA is doing is a higher frequency version of what UA has done with transcons for years.
And AA cannot increase capacity significantly above what they have without diluting the premium revenue which they say they are after. And it is precisely for that reason that the predictions of AA adding multiple more flights has not happened.
And while coach capacity in the market is actually flat, B6’s addition of a premium cabin will put pressure on the premium cabin.
AA’s loss to VX and B6 has been in the coach cabin. B6 hasn’t ever operated a premium cabin and AA is not trying to regain coach customers; they are in fact cutting coach capacity.
VX’ premium cabins are a fraction of the size of AA’s. Further, VX, along with UA, now has an uncompetitive business class product compared to AA, B6, and DL.
The passengers that VX has attracted are passengers that are largely willing to pay premium coach or discounted business fares.
The real risk in the market is, once again, to UA. It wasn’t known at the time AA made the decision regarding the transcons how badly UA would be stumbling today but, once again, DL gets a higher average fare on JFK-LAX than UA even though DL has only about 10% premium cabin seats while HALF of UA’s aircraft is in premium seats that are not competitive with either AA or DL’s premium cabin product.
If AA succeeds, it will likely be largely because UA is losing so many premium passengers esp. in LAX to AA.
The bias is yours because you once again, like so many other people on here, don’t understand the refinery; nearly all of the analysts got it wrong before it was wrong and those like you who have persisted in saying it was a mistake look only at the single line item for the refinery as a standalone operation.
DL didn’t buy the refinery as a standalone business and has repeatedly said, as have I, that the purpose of the refinery is to lower the price of jet fuel for DL.
IN an industry investor conference that just happened, DL execs noted, as I have, that the price of jet fuel is down by hundreds of millions of dollars because DL has pushed lots of jet fuel onto the market.
Jet fuel now no longer is priced at a huge premium to diesel fuel as it long has been.
DL successfully ended the refining industry’s practice of limiting the availability of jet fuel (which is a byproduct and not intended goal of the refining process for every other refiner) in order to keep prices high.
The failure of DL’s strategy SO FAR is that DL has been unable to keep the savings from the reduced price of jet fuel solely for DL.
But it is always possible that refiners could change their supply of jet fuel which would leave DL in a position of controlling a fairly large portion of jet fuel and having it available for itself.
DL is also changing the input source of fuel for the refinery from African crude which was known to be one of the reasons Trainer was not profitable.
You and others have consistently wanted to judge the success of the refinery on a few quarters’ results when it was clear from the beginning that the refinery purchase was a long term process to change the way DL vs. the rest of the industry deals with the petroleum industry.

The only bias is from those, who like yourself, fail to understand the principles involved in the transaction even though I have repeatedly stated them.


are you serious?

 
 
Once again - I'm not biased - AA is not perfect - it has many things it can do better - however you obviously did not get the article it was before the refinerary was purchased.  I think the refinerary was a good move and I hope it pays off - I always thought any industry so reliant on energy should try to own the source of the energy if it could.
 
I wish DL much success.  However, DL lost lots of money gambling on hedging - there is no way to spin that - so they did make errors. 
 
You can go to their financials and see the losses.  You have to own the fact they lost money on their hedges, made a bad hire, etc.
 
Lastly, yes I was on NH and no dinner several of us were flying the service and could not believe it - they handed out menus and then never took orders or served anyone.  They did service breakfast prior to arrival - in addition it was a seat that inclines so not that great night of sleep trying to keep yourself from sliding down the seat. 

 

[737823]

NH is fantastic I have only had amazing service in Square F, old F and C cabin, very polished and professional. You sure you didn't sleep through the service?

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

Every airline has lost money on hedges because gambling of any sort - and hedging is really just educated gambling because no party is going to take a hedge position knowing they will lose. Someone has to lose in order for someone else to gain in hedging.

The whole reason why DL is pursuing the refinery strategy - which is a long term transformation of the fuel process - is because they want a strategy that they have more control over and one where the risks are much better known and addressed.

If you acknowledge that the refinery is a long-term strategy that is targeted to the very competitive NE where even a few cents worth of a difference in costs can make the difference in profit or loss and one that other carriers cannot easily duplicate, then we are cool.

I do not take kindly to those who point to the operational losses of the refinery while failing to note that the price of jet fuel is lower than it was before Trainer opened and that benefit has extended to other airlines. DL's goal is to harness a DL - only benefit and their strategies for this year appear to be targeted in that regard.

thanks for the info on the NH flight. To say that I am surprised would be an understatement.

DL's LAX-HND flight operates with a 767 with lie flat BusinessElite seats with every seat having aisle access.

DOT data shows that NH has used a 222 seat 777 compared to DL's 208 seat 767; NH's LF was a few per cent higher than DL's but both were over 80%. NH carries more passengers than DL because of their larger aircraft and slightly higher LF.

again, I am not predicting AA's failure with the 321T strategy but I have questions about the basis that some are using to claim strategic success because I have not seen anyone present evidence to back up the assumptions behind AA's decisions, or at least what some here are claiming was AA's intent in the 321T strategy.

 

[jcw]

I said nothing about losses at the refineray - I only commented on the losses on hedging and DL made mistakes in hedging and made a bad hiring decision. I only commented on what was contained in the article.   I'm not on here saying trashing DL and saying they are now uncompetitive with AA because they made bad bets at the casino playing the hedging game. 
 
I will state again - I think it was a smart move for DL to buy the refinerary. 
 
I think the 321T is too new to declare a victory lap or disparage it - we need to get almost a full year to see if it will be successful.  Just like DL building up SEA - not sure if that will be a success or not and I doubt we would say they are failing in SEA yet - same thing here with the 321T

 

[jcw]

For those who think I slept through the service - I was up for 4.5 hours after departure - which was around 11:00 PM - so I did not sleep through dinner nor did all the folks I was flying with as one person does not sleep on planes and was up all night with only breakfast served.
 
Once again - It was a fluke on NH and I won't go on and on this board saying how horrible NH's service is as I have many great flights on NH - you fail to grasp the point that there are service issues on every airline and constant bashing points to the fact the one can't be objective.
 
I think NH provides excellent service.

 

[WorldTraveler]

we're cool then.

even before the article came out, I was critical of Mr. Riggles who apparently was also responsible for allowing the refinery to continue operating - it was in the startup process - during Sandy. Other refineries shut down and Trainer sustained damage because it was not shut down.

I had assumed his hasty departure was because of that call until this article came out showing his questionable dealings.

And yes any company can hire people who didn't fit in.

Again, I am not saying AA is failing with the 321T strategy but there are questions which are not answered - but you are right that there has to be data to be able to show success or failure.

And I still think that UA will be the most hurt by both AA and DL.

As for SEA, DL continues to add capacity including to markets like SEA-ANC and SEA-SAN which was just started by large RJs and is now scheduled to see mainline capacity while ANC is up to 4X/day by August, the most flights any carrier other than AS has offered in the market for at least a decade.

The big competitive battles in the next few years, IMHO, will be between AA and DL, and other carriers will be the ones that will give up market share and revenues to them.

 

[Kev3188]

Fly many other carriers-Air Canada, ANA, Lufthansa, Singapore, SWISS even Southwest. They are all much much better than USAIR which is on the same level as Spirit.

Josh

Hunh.

Worst inflight service I ever had was on AC- and that includes all kinds of flights on carriers like YV...

Just goes to show you that one flight does not an airline make...
 
 

I've flown AC, AF, BA, CX, DL, TG, AA, LH, LX, OS, AI, NH, JL, SQ, OZ, TK, NZ, CA, PR, SK, UA, CO, KL, 9W
 
They are no were near Spirit - when you make comments like that it goes to show how your drive to disparage US - you will go to no lenghts - I can't wait to MIA is flown exclusively by US crews
 
I've flow NH where the crew never servered dinner on an evening flight from LAX to HND - once again no airline is perfect - I'll take the lie flat bed on US Envoy over - all the other airlines inclined business class seats
 
In the flagship lounge - the agent thought is was a great idea to fly me in coach to my desintation when I paid $14k for the ticket that was half way around the world - instead of me trashing AA on here and the flagship lounge - I said - hey I will come up with options and provide them to her - and I got to my destination in business - I didn't blame AA mgmt or the agent in the lounge or get on here and trash the flagship lounge
 
This is what sets people apart - in how they handle situations
 
I too have agents in many stations around the US system and F/A's on a first name basis - including many senior flight attendants I love who provide great service - maybe you should practice what you do with the AA staff on the board

Trashing US is Josh's raison d'etre.

His posts speak volumes...

 

[737823]

For those who think I slept through the service - I was up for 4.5 hours after departure - which was around 11:00 PM - so I did not sleep through dinner nor did all the folks I was flying with as one person does not sleep on planes and was up all night with only breakfast served.
 
Once again - It was a fluke on NH and I won't go on and on this board saying how horrible NH's service is as I have many great flights on NH - you fail to grasp the point that there are service issues on every airline and constant bashing points to the fact the one can't be objective.
 
I think NH provides excellent service.

Don't believe this story for one minute there has to be more to the story. But then again this is coming from the person who believes US was the first airline to introduce flat bed seats and that the AA 77W seat is the same as the US product, so maybe I should consider the source. NH is very well run with strict procedures and in-flight service standards, unless the flight was miscatered, illness of the cabin crew, defective galley equipment I don't believe this for one minute. I have taken numerous NH flights in both F and C and every single one has been with attentive, professional and polished service.

Have you flown the late night SQ flights with "supper" service even in F/R class like I have? They don't serve much late in the night but if it's on the menu card they deliver.

Josh

 

[eolesen]

I will say that Trainer's been a success in that it crashed the crack spread.

Maybe DL is able to work out some discounting for its own use, but in general, the tide didn't rise just for DL -- it raised up all boats.

The question is whether or not Trainer's existence will be able to continue to keep the crack spread under control. Another concern is whether or not there are upgrades for the facility that will need to be done in the future which, in the desire to show it turning a profit, perhaps aren't being properly accrued for at the present time...

 

[flyer63]

Every airline has lost money on hedges because gambling of any sort - and hedging is really just educated gambling because no party is going to take a hedge position knowing they will lose. Someone has to lose in order for someone else to gain in hedging.The whole reason why DL is pursuing the refinery strategy - which is a long term transformation of the fuel process - is because they want a strategy that they have more control over and one where the risks are much better known and addressed.If you acknowledge that the refinery is a long-term strategy that is targeted to the very competitive NE where even a few cents worth of a difference in costs can make the difference in profit or loss and one that other carriers cannot easily duplicate, then we are cool.I do not take kindly to those who point to the operational losses of the refinery while failing to note that the price of jet fuel is lower than it was before Trainer opened and that benefit has extended to other airlines. DL's goal is to harness a DL - only benefit and their strategies for this year appear to be targeted in that regard.thanks for the info on the NH flight. To say that I am surprised would be an understatement.DL's LAX-HND flight operates with a 767 with lie flat BusinessElite seats with every seat having aisle access.DOT data shows that NH has used a 222 seat 777 compared to DL's 208 seat 767; NH's LF was a few per cent higher than DL's but both were over 80%. NH carries more passengers than DL because of their larger aircraft and slightly higher LF.again, I am not predicting AA's failure with the 321T strategy but I have questions about the basis that some are using to claim strategic success because I have not seen anyone present evidence to back up the assumptions behind AA's decisions, or at least what some here are claiming was AA's intent in the 321T strategy.

Just curious if you are an expert on everything?.... I've never seen someone babble on so many topics,

 

[robbedagain]

He proclaims to be given his posts

 

[jcw]

Don't believe this story for one minute there has to be more to the story. But then again this is coming from the person who believes US was the first airline to introduce flat bed seats and that the AA 77W seat is the same as the US product, so maybe I should consider the source. NH is very well run with strict procedures and in-flight service standards, unless the flight was miscatered, illness of the cabin crew, defective galley equipment I don't believe this for one minute. I have taken numerous NH flights in both F and C and every single one has been with attentive, professional and polished service.

Have you flown the late night SQ flights with "supper" service even in F/R class like I have? They don't serve much late in the night but if it's on the menu card they deliver.

Josh

 
Sorry Josh, I've flown First on many carriers and yes there was no meal service - one guy (not traveling in my group ended up asking for a "snack" after complaining about no meal.
 
I have flown NH somewhere between 15 and 20 times - one flight was a bad experience.  Once again no big deal - I"m not on here ranting about how NH is Spirit airlines.
 
I know you can't wrap your small mind around the fact that other airlines have service issues as well. 
 
However US has had lie flat seats on the Envoy product longer than AA had lie flat seats - DL was the first with the lie flat seats. You can admit the facts.  You can't help yourself.  
 
Once again I"m not saying US is perfect - however it's no Spirit.  AA is not a saint either.  Your over the top approach can't recongize AA has issues as well.  Many have had poor service on AA and left - that does not mean they are a bad carrier or Spirit.  It doesn't mean I won't fly AA because of the merger.  I've had at least 35% of my flights on AA since the merger have some issue.  I'm not on here bashing them.  I'm still flying AA and not dwelling on it.
 
It's somewhat sad you can't keep up with others on the board.

 

[700UW]

AA has announced service on their regular A321s:
 
American Airlines from 01AUG14 will begin 2-class Airbus A321 operations out of Los Angeles, initially operating service to Dallas. By September the oneWorld member will operate 3 routes with A321 from LAX. The configuration for 2-class A321 (32B) is F16Y165.
 
Los Angeles – Dallas
01AUG14 – 18AUG14 1 Daily
03SEP14 – 01OCT14 2 Daily
 
Los Angeles – Las Vegas
03SEP14 – 01OCT14 1 Daily
 
Los Angeles – Miami
19AUG14 – 01OCT14 1 Daily