2015 Pilot Discussion.

[EastUS1]

Well, being the Nic award came out in 2007, I imagine that's the "snapshot" date for us air pilots......

 
Well then, feel perfectly free to "imagine" away to your heart's content.  What even at all rational minds could ever be swayed by nearly eight years of actual reality now, versus such sound "logic" as yours anyway? Metroyet: "The updated nic with the APA could easily be from 2013."...? Most amusing.  I wasn't aware any "updated nic...from 2013" even existed, well, outside the confines of Fantasyland, of course. In any case, since I clearly missed the memo, I'm curious as to just who supposedly "updated" it?
 
Metroyet: "what you're suggesting is the same old....regurgitated, half truthed obfuscation and delusional bullshlt that only you desperate hopefulls hope is reality." Sigh...Are "you'se" at all familiar with the classic line; "Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all?"
 
No matter really. Just charge right in there loudly shouting "This is Sparta!",  perhaps toss in a chorus or two of "Blacktop Pests" or even Cactus Uber Alles for best effect, and show everyone just who's who and what's what. Have fun and good luck.

 

[EastUS1]

 
The west MC will show that the abbreviation, in their case, is either "Merger Committee" or "Moron Committee."  (I am betting on the latter, BTW.)

 
As am I.

 

[Metroyet]

And lacking the ONE thing that was required to put it in effect. A joint contract per the Transition Agreement. The NIC is just paper. Good for lighting a fire or wipeing your butt. And your committee had to agree to abide by the terms of the Protocol agreement the same as APA and the USAPA merger committee did. What, by ANY stretch of the imagination, makes you think AOL gets a pass on the very document that defines the process?
So bring your NIC while the other two parties bring proposals similar in form to the one that two of the three arbitrators on that panel just used to merge United and Continental and see how much traction you get.
 
Before this year is out or shortly after, you will be told to pound same or whatever else you can get your fist around and you will be merged using slotting by equipment with a longevity credit.
 
Enjoy...

Sure. This SLI is just like all the rest. How many SLI arbitrations in the past 20 years included 3 groups of which two of them already went to final and binding arbitration? Each SLI turns upon it's own facts. I'm sure the two out of three arbitrators you're referring to understand that perfectly clear. The fact that USCABA was a well documented self hostage taker and refused to negotiate a JCBA, (paying poor, dear Sully 125.00/hr after 28 years) really has no bearing upon the REALITY that the East pilots went willingly into final and binding arbitration. That list satisfied the company and was "hereby accepted". The one, only, and singular party to this whole thing that refuses to believe that is you and your like minded deperate hopefuls. You guys have withheld no effort to block participation by the West every single step of the way. You failed. If you're so confident in your position, why all the resistence?
 
USCABA spoon fed you their bullshlt for years and you've apparently aquired a taste for it. The rest of the world...not so much.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Sure. This SLI is just like all the rest. How many SLI arbitrations in the past 20 years included 3 groups of which two of them already went to final and binding arbitration? Each SLI turns upon it's own facts. I'm sure the two out of three arbitrators you're referring to understand that perfectly clear. The fact that USCABA was a well documented self hostage taker and refused to negotiate a JCBA, (paying poor, dear Sully 125.00/hr after 28 years) really has no bearing upon the REALITY that the East pilots went willingly into final and binding arbitration. That list satisfied the company and was "hereby accepted". The one, only, and singular party to this whole thing that refuses to believe that is you and your like minded deperate hopefuls. You guys have withheld no effort to block participation by the West every single step of the way. You failed. If you're so confident in your position, why all the resistence?
 
USCABA spoon fed you their bullshlt for years and you've apparently aquired a taste for it. The rest of the world...not so much.

I love the part about the Nic is a piece of paper, well my marriage license is a piece of paper and I have managed to abide by it for 25 years with has kept our marriage strong and our family together. I guess it has more to do with the integrity of those, when they look at the piece of paper and decide whether they are going to figure out a way to cheat.

 

[autofixer]

I foresee lawsuits without end.  I should have went to law school.   

 

[dariencc]

I love the part about the Nic is a piece of paper, well my marriage license is a piece of paper and I have managed to abide by it for 25 years with has kept our marriage strong and our family together. I guess it has more to do with the integrity of those, when they look at the piece of paper and decide whether they are going to figure out a way to cheat.

 
You're lying, JJ.  We know all about the bitter divorce and personal bankruptcy. 
 
We also know about American Idol and Dancing With The Stars.  

 

[Phoenix]

Jesus are you guys illiterate? The APA petitioned for the mini arb. Not the west. There was no recognized west merger group BEFORE THE MINI ARB...
The West was not a party to the protocol agreement in any way, shape,form, or idea.

Sweet pea, the MB arbitration began and will end pursuant to the PA. No one will participate otherwise. It's the law. Sue if you object... It's true, APA, the company, and USAPA concocted the PA without your prior input. It was not fair. You should sue. In the meantime everything will happen pursuant to the PA. Good luck.

 

[Phoenix]

Well, being the Nic award came out in 2007, I imagine that's the "snapshot" date for us air pilots being its the only "hereby" accepted list generated by due process that exists on the property...the same property with ONE operating certificate, ONE stock symbol, and ONE Management team. The updated nic with the APA could easily be from 2013...what you're suggesting is the same old USCABA line of regurgitated, half truthed obfuscation and delusional bullshlt that only you desperate hopefulls hope is reality.
Maybe you should find another useless non profit to worship...USTUPID has run its course and cost you dearly.

"Status Quo", pursuant to the PA... How come the putative "West Committee" had no input to the definition of the status quo as defined in the PA?

 

[CactusPilot1]

When you have no leg to stand on, you get Carl and no I am not JJ.

Do the court documents lie? If your side was so confident that you could evade the arbitration by simply not ratifying a contract then why did you feel the need to throw ALPA? That's because you were in a pickle. You decided to form a union of Pickelballers,

http://www.usapa.org

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West_Pilot_DFR_DJ/Doc_14_SOF_iso_PI.pdf

page 8

In June 2007, Mr. Bradford and other East Pilots formed a committee to
explore whether they could use the device of a new union to repudiate ALPAs duty to
use the Nicolau Award. 43
44. On June 9, 2007, this committee received advice from a lawyer to take care
with the language you use in setting up your new union and not to give the other side
a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an
arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to
stand due to no gross negligence or fraud. 44
45. On June 14, 2007, this group met with another law firm to inquire whether
formation of a new bargaining agent could prevent implementation of the Nicolau
Award. A report of this meeting explained how they could use a new union (USAPA) to
evade honoring the Nicolau arbitration. 45

You're lying, JJ.  We know all about the bitter divorce and personal bankruptcy. 
 
We also know about American Idol and Dancing With The Stars.  

When you have no leg to stand on, you get Carl and no I am not JJ.

Do the court documents lie? If your side was so confident that you could evade the arbitration by simply not ratifying a contract then why did you feel the need to throw ALPA? That's because you were in a pickle. You decided to form a union of Pickelballers:

http://www.usapa.org

http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/West_Pilot_DFR_DJ/Doc_14_SOF_iso_PI.pdf

page 8

In June 2007, Mr. Bradford and other East Pilots formed a committee to
explore whether they could use the device of a new union to repudiate ALPAs duty to
use the Nicolau Award. 43
44. On June 9, 2007, this committee received advice from a lawyer to take care
with the language you use in setting up your new union and not to give the other side
a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an
arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to
stand due to no gross negligence or fraud. 44
45. On June 14, 2007, this group met with another law firm to inquire whether
formation of a new bargaining agent could prevent implementation of the Nicolau
Award. A report of this meeting explained how they could use a new union (USAPA) to
evade honoring the Nicolau arbitration. 45

 

[Phoenix]

Sure. This SLI is just like all the rest. How many SLI arbitrations in the past 20 years included 3 groups of which two of them already went to final and binding arbitration? Each SLI turns upon it's own facts. I'm sure the two out of three arbitrators you're referring to understand that perfectly clear. The fact that USCABA was a well documented self hostage taker and refused to negotiate a JCBA, (paying poor, dear Sully 125.00/hr after 28 years) really has no bearing upon the REALITY that the East pilots went willingly into final and binding arbitration. That list satisfied the company and was "hereby accepted". The one, only, and singular party to this whole thing that refuses to believe that is you and your like minded deperate hopefuls. You guys have withheld no effort to block participation by the West every single step of the way. You failed. If you're so confident in your position, why all the resistence?
 
USCABA spoon fed you their bullshlt for years and you've apparently aquired a taste for it. The rest of the world...not so much.

This SLI is exactly like any other. No one participates with the Status Quo they wish existed, they enter with the Status Quo that actually does exist.

 

[CactusPilot1]

I foresee lawsuits without end.  I should have went to law school.

I see an end. An end where the regulars at that cheap hotel in Charlotte located on Woodlawn suddenly disappear and claim they never had sex with that whore.

 

[Phoenix]

I love the part about the Nic is a piece of paper, well my marriage license is a piece of paper and I have managed to abide by it for 25 years with has kept our marriage strong and our family together. I guess it has more to do with the integrity of those, when they look at the piece of paper and decide whether they are going to figure out a way to cheat.

Congratulations on your marriage. Seriously.


But do you even realize what you just assumed (you guys are masters of implicit assumption)? You assumed you are married by means of your marriage license... You are not. There are tens of thousands of people who secured a marriage license but never followed through to get married...

If a woman left you at the alter, after you had a Nicolau List.. uh, I mean a marriage license, would you sue her for the rest of your life in hopes to force her to marry you.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Congratulations on your marriage. Seriously.
But do you even realize what you just assumed (you guys are masters of implicit assumption)? You assumed you are married by means of your marriage license... You are not. There are tens of thousands of people who secured a marriage license but never followed through to get married...
If a woman left you at the alter, after you had a Nicolau List.. uh, I mean a marriage license, would you sue her for the rest of your life in hopes to force her to marry you.

Let's say that my marriage ended and I had to pay alimony. Can I simply say AWE, that's just a piece of paper and ignore my obligation?

With your logic, good thing you are not a marriage counselor, Mr PT.

 

[luvthe9]

.

Found on the internet..........



Sent: 2/11/2015 11:57:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
Subj: Re: USAPA - "It Ain't Over"


The great philosopher, Yogi Berra once said, "It ain't over til it's over." That accurately describes USAPA today.

USAPA, as you will remember, was started when a corrupt ALPA proved to be incapable of representing us in a variety of important issues from our pensions to bankruptcy to seniority integration. We had no choice but to take the only legal avenue we had and that was to change bargaining agents.

Was creating an in-house union to represent our needs the right course? While the jury is still out on some things like our pension restoration, it can rightly be judged on USAPA's ability to keep the Nicolau Award from becoming the certified seniority list 8 years later. It has been an overwhelming success based on that alone.

But the job isn't finished. We are in the last mile of a long race and this is no time to be complacent about it. It does no one any good to have voted for a large pay increase only to find you are now pulling the landing gear up as an F/O for a Captain hired 15 years after you were.

Even as a relative "new hire" or "Third Lister," you have a dog in this fight. Your rights, even if you think you have few, need to be proclaimed and protected and it won't be protected by the other people sitting at that arbitration hearing. USAPA is the only entity at those hearings that will be representing you.

But who will lead us through the last stretch? The only reason USAPA still exists, is to present and defend our seniority integration process. For the most part, USAPA has to be on autopilot for some time and is now carried along by the momentum of our long established Merger Committee. The Merger Committee has been involved in every aspect of the seniority integration process. They have worked closely with our attorneys, developed a strategy that they and the attorneys believe will be successful, know all the players on the other two teams, know their strengths and their weaknesses. It is the Merger Committee that is now all important in USAPA and to us.

One candidate has been in the forefront of all USAPA efforts since day one. That is Stephan Bradford. Steve promises to continue to fight for your seniority rights and to stay the course. He has the experience and knowledge to carry this union to the end. He has confidence in the present strategy that the Merger Committee and the attorneys have formed and the Merger Committee has full confidence that he will allow them to pursue this strategy.

The other candidate is Dave Ciabattoni.

A little history lesson here is in order. It is no secret that when George Nicolau came to US Airways ALPA MEC and told us that our seniority position could not be supported and that we needed to adjust it or else, it was Dave as an ALPA MEC Rep along with three other Reps using the Roll Call vote to refuse George Nicolau's request thereby creating the crisis that forced us to fight for our seniority for the next 8 years.

Before that, it was Dave and the aforementioned Reps that helped usher in LOA 93 after repeatedly tuning down company proposals only to have a series of worse proposals replace it until we had lost any advantage we would have had. They were outmaneuvered by the company and the result was LOA 93 we suffered under for all these years.

Then it was Dave that helped undermine USAPA President Mike Cleary when he was in office so Dave could run his hand picked candidate Gary Hummel. Then once Gary was in office and Dave realized what a mistake he had made, Dave began a campaign to remove Gary, publicly admitting he and his friends had made a terrible mistake.

More recently, Dave was our Grievance Committee Chairman. Remember the 'slam dunk' 3% raise we never got? Dave fought that battle by combining that 3% Grievance with another, not so slam dunk grievance. When the arbitrator decided against the second Grievance, we automatically lost the 3%. To all that had inside knowledge, it was a bad strategy and cost us the 3% grievance.

In short, no pilot here with the exception of Chip Munn has been so wrong on so many issues that have affected us.

What is Dave's campaign pledge to you now? He will change the Merger Committee with people he picks. Can you say, "Here we go again?" We can't possibly be dumb enough to change that committee at this late stage. But then again, we never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity where important issues are concerned.

Dave's legacy at ALPA was secret roll call votes, secret deals made without the pilots he was representing ever getting the information until AFTER it was too late and picking strategies that were ill advised.

With USAPA, he helped to undermine USAPA's President with innuendo and disinformation so he could place his own candidate in that office and shortly after that, proclaimed he made a mistake.

Even as Grievance Chairman working with the BPR, there was little give and take by him. He ran the Grievance Committee as a one man show with few results. Running USAPA, he would also be a one man show.

So, basically we now have 3 choices for USAPA President.

-- Do nothing, not vote and allow others to decide your fate.
-- Vote for Dave Ciabattoni and allow him and his friends to run the Merger Committee, fighting with our attorneys to change their strategy at a time we all need to devote our energies to gaining advantage.
-- Vote for Stephan Bradford and allow USAPA's Merger Committee to continue the work they started over a year ago.

If you are like me, you feel that this fight has been never ending. But rest assured, the end is very near and it would be a shame to give up now. So I hope you can find a moment or two to finish the job we started 8 years ago and help fight for our seniority one last time. The monies have been paid. The strategies have been decided, the final battle is about to begin. Our opponents are formidable and willing to fight to the end. Are you up for this? You better be. Please vote for Stephan Bradford for USAPA President.

There are two ways to vote.

By phone: 800-826-5530, and follow the prompts.

By email: https://Ballotpoint.com/USAPA

The closing date for the vote is 14:00 ET, Thursday February 12th.









.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Well, being the Nic award came out in 2007, I imagine that's the "snapshot" date for us air pilots being its the only "hereby" accepted list generated by due process that exists on the property...the same property with ONE operating certificate, ONE stock symbol, and ONE Management team. The updated nic with the APA could easily be from 2013...what you're suggesting is the same old USCABA line of regurgitated, half truthed obfuscation and delusional bullshlt that only you desperate hopefulls hope is reality.
Maybe you should find another useless non profit to worship...USTUPID has run its course and cost you dearly.

2007...you have to give them credit for thinking ahead, yet they will end up back where they started. A fruitless attempt in evading arbitration.

The plot thickens..

On June 14, 2007, this group met with another law firm to inquire whether
“formation of a new bargaining agent” could prevent implementation of the Nicolau
Award. A report of this meeting explained how they could use a new union (USAPA) to
evade honoring the Nicolau arbitration. 45
46. In August 2007, USAPA’s counsel provided an opinion letter that USAPA
published to the East Pilots, stating
You have asked us to provide our legal opinion concerning whether
Arbitrator Nicolau’s seniority integration arbitration award could be
overturned or otherwise modified via litigation or subsequent
negotiation.
 
Federal case law supports the conclusion that any effort to
overturn the Nicolau award via litigation would be fruitless. By contrast,
we believe that a successor union would be free to negotiate with US
Airways concerning the terms of any seniority integration