2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[NYer]

what scope expires for TWU,  the day before ammendability.  Doesn't the flight activity go up?

You have the cart before the horse. The pre-BK threshold was 2555 annual departures, which was modified to 5475. There was concern for a couple of cities that might be impacted artificially or through a merger (by moving flights around), so they agreed to grandfather the remaining cities back to the 2555 in order to ease those concerns.
 
The original BK agreement was always 5475, including the 17 cities remaining.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I'm sure your pre bk contract was better, I'm just going on what is under contract now, and what will be lost in 2018, if there is no agreement.  That grandfathering is temporary since it has a drop dead date in 2018.  That's why I would think that the TWU may have reason to push for some arbitration deal, although I'd be impressed if it didn't [instead of 7 flights a day average, it goes up to 15 a day, which may be significant for a few stations by then.]
 
OTOH, the IAM agreement doesn't have temporary scope as the United contract and the AMR Bankrupt contract. If the scope changes, in our contract, it will only be a result of a membership vote.  That, along with pay raises for the next few years, imo, wouldn't make the IAM desperate for a new contract so quick unless it's a goodie.  Just my opinion.

 

[NYer]

I'm sure your pre bk contract was better, I'm just going on what is under contract now, and what will be lost in 2018, if there is no agreement.  That grandfathering is temporary since it has a drop dead date in 2018.  That's why I would think that the TWU may have reason to push for some arbitration deal, although I'd be impressed if it didn't [instead of 7 flights a day average, it goes up to 15 a day, which may be significant for a few stations by then.]
 
OTOH, the IAM agreement doesn't have temporary scope as the United contract and the AMR Bankrupt contract. If the scope changes, in our contract, it will only be a result of a membership vote.  That, along with pay raises for the next few years, imo, wouldn't make the IAM desperate for a new contract so quick unless it's a goodie.  Just my opinion.

 
I guess I'm not explaining it clearly. The original agreement was 15 flights, after that agreement it was brought back to the original number in order to ease the minds of those at the stations flirting with the 15 number. It doesn't seem the TWU is in any hurry to get a deal done any time soon.
 
My only attention with the arbitration backdrop would be if it contained a premium, as it has with the APFA and the APA. It is obvious now that there is a premium since the APFA was able to get the value in pay they turned down and the APA was able to have the airline back away from Scope issues. If the airline has a goal to get these deals done before the Single Operators' Certificate (SOC) then I'd like to take advantage of that.
 
It seems clear they are succeeding with the current split in the airline, so I don't see why they would agree to anything they don't like after the SOC. It doesn't seem that a joined workforce in the Fleet or Maintenance departments is that urgent as would a flight attendant or a pilot. Do you see it differently?

 

[WeAAsles]

 
I guess I'm not explaining it clearly. The original agreement was 15 flights, after that agreement it was brought back to the original number in order to ease the minds of those at the stations flirting with the 15 number. It doesn't seem the TWU is in any hurry to get a deal done any time soon.
 
My only attention with the arbitration backdrop would be if it contained a premium, as it has with the APFA and the APA. It is obvious now that there is a premium since the APFA was able to get the value in pay they turned down and the APA was able to have the airline back away from Scope issues. If the airline has a goal to get these deals done before the Single Operators' Certificate (SOC) then I'd like to take advantage of that.
 
It seems clear they are succeeding with the current split in the airline, so I don't see why they would agree to anything they don't like after the SOC. It doesn't seem that a joined workforce in the Fleet or Maintenance departments is that urgent as would a flight attendant or a pilot. Do you see it differently?

NYer it seems like you would be ok and maybe agree that we should also have or gain an Arbitration backstop? I feel what we would have to compare ourselves against is a little different than the Pilots and the FA's. What if that Arbitration backstop meant we had to compare against United's ability to go down to 7 Stations after 2016 and no Part time cap? What if we also had to compare ourselves to Delta's "Ready Reserve" program that absolutely must bring down the overall cost of ground work for that company?

It's easy to want to have that "Arbitration Backstop" if you work in a hub and have over 25 years but it may not necessarily work for everyone and could potentially dwindle our numbers quite substantially.

As I said before if the company agreed to a few "No Go" items I personally could fly with that Arbitration deal maybe to move the process along. Money is not everyone's sole motivating driver though. 

 

[NYer]

NYer it seems like you would be ok and maybe agree that we should also have or gain an Arbitration backstop? I feel what we would have to compare ourselves against is a little different than the Pilots and the FA's. What if that Arbitration backstop meant we had to compare against United's ability to go down to 7 Stations after 2016 and no Part time cap? What if we also had to compare ourselves to Delta's "Ready Reserve" program that absolutely must bring down the overall cost of ground work for that company?

It's easy to want to have that "Arbitration Backstop" if you work in a hub and have over 25 years but it may not necessarily work for everyone and could potentially dwindle our numbers quite substantially.

As I said before if the company agreed to a few "No Go" items I personally could fly with that Arbitration deal maybe to move the process along. Money is not everyone's sole motivating driver though. 

 
I guess you haven't been paying attention. The arbitration process is not an open ended process and the outside agreement made by the APFA and the airline was the only basis the arbitrator could use in his decision, he can't move the pieces around. There was an agreement as to what the floor would be, and in the case of the APFA it was the "market aggregate" or $112M. The arbitrator did not decide what was in and what was out, there was no comparison on his part as to what contractual provisions would be good or bad. It was a straight assessment of value. Those issues were agreed to before an arbitration backstop was signed off by the parties.
 
The APA is going through that process right now, in which they are to put together a proposal within the "framework" of the airlines last proposal. The APA agreed and it seems they're moving forward with that "framework" to try and put together a TA.
 
An arbitration seems to have a bad connotation just by its mere utterance, but the true value or detriment of an arbitration are it's rules and the scope by which that arbitrator can make their decision. In those two cases it seems fairly obvious those parameters were discussed and agreed to before the backstop was signed off on.
 
The only way an arbitration would be beneficial is if held a premium. That's to say that if the baseline for the airline is to hold to a certain value and they plan not to surpass that value then we take our chances with prolonged negotiations. If however, they are willing to surpass that baseline with an arbitration backstop then we'd need to consider that.
 
In the real world, it doesn't seem the TWU is willing to even utter those words therefore I'm almost resigned to the fact that these negotiations will just drag and drag. There is no incentive to do otherwise and the leaders will just do what gets them elected, talk tough.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
I guess you haven't been paying attention. The arbitration process is not an open ended process and the agreement made by the APFA and the airline was the only basis the arbitrator could use in his decision. There was an agreement as to what the floor would be, and in the case of the APFA it was the "market aggregate" or $112M. The arbitrator did not decide what was in and what was out, there was no comparison on his part as to what contractual provisions would be good or bad. It was a straight assessment of value. Their issues were agreed to before an arbitration backstop agreement.
 
The APA is going through that process right now, in which they are to put together a proposal within the "framework" of the airlines last proposal. The APA agreed and it seems they're moving forward with that "framework" to try and put together a TA.
 
An arbitration seems to have a bad connotation just by its mere utterance, but the true value or detriment of an arbitration are it's rules and the scope by which that arbitrator can make their decision. In those two cases it seems fairly obvious those parameters were discussed and agreed to before the backstop was agreed to.
 
The only way an arbitration would be beneficial is if held a premium. That's to say that if the baseline for the airline is to hold to a certain value and they plan not to surpass that value then we take our chances with prolonged negotiations. If however, they are willing to surpass that baseline with an arbitration backstop then we'd need to consider that.
 
In the real world, it doesn't seem the TWU is willing to even utter those words therefore I'm almost resigned to the fact that these negotiations will just drag and drag. There is no incentive to do otherwise and the leaders will just do what gets them elected, talk tough.

Yes I know in your mind now unlike the past the TWU has become the irrational, political, dolts who have no business being in any leadership positions and the past administration was steller and never made a misstep of any kind. Woe is all of us because those new leaders are ALL so incredibly stupid that it's surprising they can even tie their own shoes without some assistance. I think everyone on just about all social media sites knows what you think of the people in charge now.

You told me in the past that you thought Unions were dying. Well to me the one's that are killing them are the individuals who didn't get their way and now go out of their way to do everything they can to attempt to bring the house down. It's individuals who make up a Union and it's individuals who either make it stronger or make it weaker. 

Which one are you or which one do you want to be?   

 

[Bob Owens]

Which one are you or which one do you want to be?   

Whatever the company wants NYer will find an argument to support it.
 
He is not a mechanic, he is not a FSC, nor MLS, he is not a TWU member employed at AA. 
 

 It doesn't seem that a joined workforce in the Fleet or Maintenance departments is that urgent as would a flight attendant or a pilot.
 

This statement does have some truth to it. One reason is that the IAM already agreed to give them the benefits of SOC without a JCBA, thankfully the Presidents in the TWU Locals squashed an attempt to do the same. Kudos to Gonzo and Peterson on that. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Whatever the company wants NYer will find an argument to support it.
 
He is not a mechanic, he is not a FSC, nor MLS, he is not a TWU member employed at AA. 

Yes he is a TWU member employed at AA Bob because I know the guy personally.

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes he is a TWU member employed at AA Bob because I know the guy personally.

Assuming of course the NYer is only one person. Its not too difficult to give over the password to someone else. I was accused of giving mine (with my name on it) to Lee Seham. NYers style of writing changes every now and then. I recall a discussion way back about the prefunding when NYer claimed we weren't losing it,they were just changing the way we pay for it, and it was verbatum what an ex MIA FSC President was saying. No big words in those posts, yet on other issues the writing style was very different and the vocabulary much more expansive.
 
When it comes to the M&R talks how would your guy know what went on? 
 
 At one time you had an Avitar that appeared to have a Local 501 jacket in it but I thought you said you work in MIA. 

 

[WeAAsles]

Assuming of course the NYer is only one person. Its not too difficult to give over the password to someone else. I was accused of giving mine (with my name on it) to Lee Seham. NYers style of writing changes every now and then. I recall a discussion way back about the prefunding when NYer claimed we weren't losing it,they were just changing the way we pay for it, and it was verbatum what an ex MIA FSC President was saying. No big words in those posts, yet on other issues the writing style was very different.
 
When it comes to the M&R talks how would your guy know what went on? 

I haven't seen the writing style change and as a matter of fact that is exactly how I know who some people are on these pages. Those same people post on FB and most people aren't too adept at masking their particular style.

 

[Tim Nelson]

NYer, I really have no real insight into what the holdup is.  But I wouldn't think that the company would have a different strategy and timetable for other groups.  It could just be that the company can't really engage with our unions due to internal delays by the TWU due to apparent disputes it has raised.  That may also have something to do with the NMB's seemingly delayed determination.  I freely admit I could be wrong, but Parker is prolly just stepping back from our negotiations and telling our unions to give him a call when the unions stop fussing at eachother and come together.  I haven't heard anything new from the TWU or IAM, so maybe that means that the TWU president has decided to move forward for the benefit of the membership and leave politics alone. Dunno

 

[NYer]

Yes I know in your mind now unlike the past the TWU has become the irrational, political, dolts who have no business being in any leadership positions and the past administration was steller and never made a misstep of any kind. Woe is all of us because those new leaders are ALL so incredibly stupid that it's surprising they can even tie their own shoes without some assistance. I think everyone on just about all social media sites knows what you think of the people in charge now.

You told me in the past that you thought Unions were dying. Well to me the one's that are killing them are the individuals who didn't get their way and now go out of their way to do everything they can to attempt to bring the house down. It's individuals who make up a Union and it's individuals who either make it stronger or make it weaker. 

Which one are you or which one do you want to be?   

 
Wow. Which one am I?
 
BTW--Have I mentioned anyone? Have I singled out and compare one person to another? Or are we just sharing our feelings of the situation we find ourselves in?
 
Look in the mirror...see who is the one pointing fingers.

 

[WeAAsles]

Wow. Which one am I?
 
BTW--Have I mentioned anyone? Have I singled out and compare one person to another? Or are we just sharing our feelings of the situation we find ourselves in?
 
Look in the mirror...see who is the one pointing fingers.

The now constant and over abundant criticism you've had about the Union you belong to and used to defend has to make me think and if the roles were reversed you would be thinking the same thing also.

Trust me when I say that I am very sorry to be thinking the way I do and even asking YOU the question I just asked.

 

[NYer]

NYer, I really have no real insight into what the holdup is.  But I wouldn't think that the company would have a different strategy and timetable for other groups.  It could just be that the company can't really engage with our unions due to internal delays by the TWU due to apparent disputes it has raised.  That may also have something to do with the NMB's seemingly delayed determination.  I freely admit I could be wrong, but Parker is prolly just stepping back from our negotiations and telling our unions to give him a call when the unions stop fussing at eachother and come together.  I haven't heard anything new from the TWU or IAM, so maybe that means that the TWU president has decided to move forward for the benefit of the membership and leave politics alone. Dunno

 
The TWU is just buying time with survey's most Members don't even know about. The JCBA is not a real big subject in most membership meetings and since we're in the holiday season a lot of this has just been put off. I'd guess the unions have a loose idea of when the SCS might be issued. (or at least when it wouldn't be, like over the holidays)
 
Every day we sit and wait is another day we're not fully prepared.

 

[NYer]

The now constant and over abundant criticism you've had about the Union you belong to and used to defend has to make me think and if the roles were reversed you would be thinking the same thing also.

Trust me when I say that I am very sorry to be thinking the way I do and even asking YOU the question I just asked.

 
My concerns have dealt with the negotiations and lack of preparedness and the deafening lack of information. Should I stay quiet to make YOU feel better?