Why Tim Nelson is Dangerous to IAM-represented employees at United Airlines

[737823]

Which questions? For me?

You keep avoiding the questions you are being asked and seem to believe saying the same thing over and over again will change peoples minds. Too little too late, the membership shot down this joke of an agreement. Why did you just now show up to attack Tim over the T/A that was voted on six months ago?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

You and the NC wanted to instill fear in the membership...

Fear of Loss is an amazingly effective tactic. I expect it from an employer or big business, I expect it from the hordes of "union avoidance" firms that are out there. To see it used by an elected NC in a case like this is inexcusable. It's right up there with:

"This is the best offer we'll get"
"Live to fight another day"
"We'll get 'em next time"
"We just wanted to put a little cash in our member's pockets"

UA is not in BK, right? Just checking...

Instead of complete scope in Bos, you guys bartered it away and we have to conclude that the company will take full advantage by perhaps contracting out lead work or perhaps the bagroom

Or deicing... Or transfer driving... or pushabacks... The list goes on. Under this langage, it will be very easy to whittle any given point down to almost nothing.

...Then super easy to use it as cannon fodder in the next round of talks...

Again the NC has given away tremendous leverage as it is...

...When you distill it down, this is really the bottom line...

At any rate, didnt the membership already tell you that the ta blowed? You need to look in the mirror and listen to the membership instead of picking debates with someone who couldnt even fill out a survey.

Why? It's much easier to come online & shoot the messenger. Reflection & affecting real change are a lot harder; especially when it comes to curing oneself of "We got this" syndrome...

 

[Tim Nelson]

Josh,
Now you say UA will not outsource the sub-CO and UAX work in BOS. Why then negotiate any protections? Just trust UA I assume? Not smart.
Little Man,
I just showed you in the 23 stations that no employee, including PCE and Stores, can be displaced from their location. You didn't know that, and that's really a shame since you pose as some kind of leader. BOS does not have complete scope now, along with many, many other locations.

Under TA1 the whole gained more protections. As for the non hubs and non T2 stations, they were protected by seniority based protections of 1999--no furlough for any reason--and 2006--no furlough due to outsourcing. . At least these people have options to maintain their employment if a station goes all UAX. No contract in the industry protected more work and more people, none.

Your beloved WN scope protects no work, just people.

Contract out lead work? Are you off your meds? Why do that when no lead can be displaced from the location?

Show me one contract in the industry that disallows an employee from being displaced from their location?

Every single existing Reservations job was protected under pure scope language in TA1.

Again you display your true ignorance regarding these issues.

That's the problem, you even protected the foreign call centers by agreeing that they can continue doing the work. Right or Wrong? Don't you nitwits realize that all other airlines, including non union ones insourced reservations? Sheeeshhhh.

And as soon as TA1 would have passed, all ramp/PCE overtime would have been cut in those 23 stations, as management would have implemented the advantages that it wanted and got from you clowns in TA1, including the contracting out clause. Many of those 23 stations would have also presumably had a skeleton work force with most of the old timers taking the buyout. I would reasonably expect half of BOS to be contracted out if TA2 juiced up the buyout and kept the same dopey contracting out language. All overtime would be halted, perhaps bagroom, ramp, Lead work, or any combination would immediately happen without little doubt. All this clause did was give 2 year grandfather rights to the remaining employees. That's all it is, grandfather rights for 2 years. What is amazing is that you tossed out REAL SCOPE in the current contract for a station like BOS or JFK, and handed over all contracting out rights to management, provided that they grant 2 year grandfather rights to any remaining employee. ARE U NUTS?? You claim industry leading by standing on GRANDFATHER RIGHTS with drop dead dates?

I'm still amazed that we have to even discuss this because most of these employees don't plan on dying in two years, they plan on working for years to come, but you will not afford them to, because after 2 years, management will surely give them the boot. I've read some of your ignorant emails telling your members how today isn't the time to fight and you will be stronger in 2016. HOW? You will have 7 stations or less by then, and management will have 82 or more. Management will simply suggest that if you want another contract with pay raises then you must eliminate half of the remaining protected stations, whether that is 7 or less that are remaining at that point.

I question your 20,000 out of 28,000 having their work protected since there is no evidence in the TA1 regarding 2014. Is ORD protected if you nitwits didn't protect CLE? CLE is only a F Midwest hub like ORD. But, knowing how the 'drop dead' and Cinderella midnight dates are timed bombed with the witches hourglass in 2016, I think it is fairly reasonable with good math that only 7,000 or so of 28,000 will remain. At any rate, even with your Delaney glasses on, the best scenario wouldn't leave anything more than 10,000 tops out of 28,000 left. The only thing left to be negotiated then would be the company saying SCREW YOU unless you give us 3 more stations. Would you give LAX, DEN, IAD next time to protect ORD if ORD is still around?

That contract sucked so bad regarding its job killing lack of scope along with a dozen pages of contracting out language, that we don't even have to discuss the total disregard of work rules. There is a reason why the company wanted unlimited start times. See Delta. Hell, Delta, in a twisted way may even be a better place to work instead of being stuck under the TA1 anti labor concentration camp contract.

 

[737823]

DL 141 should have put up a fight when UA outsourced MHT, MIA, STL, etc leading upto the T/A. Many from MHT came to BOS, I wonder how much longer, new T/A or not BDL & PVD will stay around with a single Airbus to ORD.

Josh

 

[737823]

Tim,
Do you have any info on how many stations (non-union) jetblue currently has staffed? Kev has posted DL has ~25 ramps throughout their system and cargo curious how jetblue compares to this agreement.

Josh

 

[Socplat13]

Joe,
Why do u say the work on bos ramp isnt protected? U suggesting they can contract out the bagroom?

The entire sub-CO operation and the entire UAX operation is not protected in BOS as well as countless other stations. Again, again, you are under some kind of illusion that stations like BOS, or MSP for example, have scope language that protects all the work in those locations and locations like them.

Moreover, PCE employees, remember them Little Man, have no protection at all over their work.

What contract in the industry prevents people from being displaced from their location? TA1 did that for thousands who do not have that protection now.

You disregard the single greatest threat to the job security of UA employees: the fact that 67% of the entire flight schedule is UAX. All you do is stick your head in the sand and refuse to address the real issues and the fact that only about 3,000 employees out of about 28,000 are covered by scope and another 3,000 by seniority based protections currently. That leaves tens of thousands that are currently vulnerable.

That's why you and your minions are dangerous to UA employees.

Little man, why don't you organize the "masses" at USA? Oh, I forgot, they're doing a fine enough job without you. Just keep blabbering on the internet and stay out of the game. That's what you do best.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Joe,
The ua ramp contract protects all united airline work. Start there and build off that instead of tossing that for two year drop deads.
I agree that express needs to be bargained for but you guys dont recognize that. Ta1 doesnt have one express work protected after a couple years. Again, stop the temporary band aids and quit the drop dead letters.

By your own count, about 7,000 out of 28,000 will remain afterthe drop dead trigger.

 

[Tim Nelson]

What you negotiated was a weed that will whither away in two years.
85 stations will be eliminated
All express work will be contracted even at 7 protected stations
most likely few will remain in ord or other protected stations as management will shift more regional work to ord and more mainline work to cle. Talking about putting a target on a station back!
Again, the 1999 date doesnt mean dick if you support managements right to contract out but the member isnt willing to uproot and move thousands of miles.

Again why did you F the ramp and stores by splitting them up?

 

[T5towbar]

You keep avoiding the questions you are being asked and seem to believe saying the same thing over and over again will change peoples minds. Too little too late, the membership shot down this joke of an agreement. Why did you just now show up to attack Tim over the T/A that was voted on six months ago?

Josh

I'm still asking about the situation in IAD that affects Express. And why the contract wasn't started from the old BK contract (which had scope), to FTW? I still would like to have that question answered. Shouldn't a BK contract be improved? And why was the sCO "market rate" red circled? That should have been added to ORD. (I'm quite sure the "mother Hub" would like to have a dollar more since it is a high cost city) And why wasn't IAH added to the list of cities that were protected? The old 2005 agreement should have been a starting point and justifyingly so, since you can't get any lower. That agreement was foisted upon the sUA membership who was topping out at 25.00 plus before the BK. It would have been hard to get that back, but at last expand the scope to IAH (I forget if CLE was on the list of the 29 - someone correct me if I'm wrong). That would have been a starting point to negotiate since you can't get much lower and the company is not in BK. This TA would have been worse because in 2016, they will come back and cut more to finish us all off. Especially if the same negotiating team is in place.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Josh,
Jetblue uses their own employees in many of there own stations but some work is contracted out. I believe most of their reservations is at home agents, unlike at united where the majority of res work is in manilla, tokyo, etc which our current union leaders have endorsed in ta1 and previous contracts.
Kev has posted that Dl has 43 ramp stations and 17 cargo centers.
Most managements seek to get rid of union. Thus delta keepsthings for employees to keep the union out. United management negotiates to get the union bosses to support contracting out rights.
Under socopats scenerio, the Ta1 would have made delta management look like saviors after united management would have been able to trim 20,000 union jobs over a 3 year period.

 

[Socplat13]

Joe,
The ua ramp contract protects all united airline work. Start there and build off that instead of tossing that for two year drop deads.
I agree that express needs to be bargained for but you guys dont recognize that. Ta1 doesnt have one express work protected after a couple years. Again, stop the temporary band aids and quit the drop dead letters.

By your own count, about 7,000 out of 28,000 will remain afterthe drop dead trigger.

First, not Joe.
Second, the UA contract only protects about 33% of the ramp work, which is mainline work. 67% in completely unprotected UAX, and all the work at sub-CO--upstairs and downstairs and all the work at sub-UA PCE is completely unprotected. A pseudo leader would even know this.

The 7 hub scope protections and the scope protections in Res in TA1 protected the work of almost 20,000 UA employees, not 7,000.

Your claim that 82 stations would have been immediately contracted out upon 12/31/2016 is fear mongering and foolish. United possesses that right to outsource much of that work right this second.

Again, name me one contract that protects people from being displaced from their locations or purely protects the work and is not dependent on some variable like flight activity. TA1 protected the work of almost 20,000.

As for "drop dead" dates, it's called today. Forget a few years, all that work is vulnerable today. Take off the blinders dude.

 

[Tim Nelson]

One of the greatest problems for working people has been organized labors direct assault on the wage and working conditions by organizing vendors and cutting deals with management that F the families by eliminating family rearing jobs and teaming up with management to sign vending contracts that exchange middle class aflcio jobs for cheap labor aflcio jobs. Thats also what Ta1 attempted to do.

Remember, iam142 signed a new contract at air willie that undercuts a livable wage and will be used to take over thousands of more jobs with no dues being lost. Twu slashed eagle pay and took over union jobs at 6 united stations. And cwa has done the same thing with its vendor "piedmont field services". Its a scandal but big labor isnt becoming a friend ofworking people and is now actually wanting to morph into animal rights with peta.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Socopat
Lets take ord.
How many workers in ord airport?
I thought ord had protections currently with express provided the union allow the productivity gains of an attendance policy?
At any rate, lets say that ta1 came in. Lets also say that ord went up to 80% from 70% regional flying. Thats a fair assessment, right?
If ta1 didnt protect one single job in ord that was express or non core in two years then how many members would local 1487 expect to have in two years?
At most, ta1 is a weed that places a drop dead date on 20,000 out of 28,000 jobs. There very well may not be even 5,000 iam members left in 3 years.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Although socat has a message of fear, mine is a message of hope that trust working people over the fearmongering of management mouthpieces.

The reality of the situation is that there can not possibly be a better negotiation climate. Delaney was right 1year ago when he was insisting on $26 ironclad scope and free medical.
Negotiating against a company with $billions in the bank and making a half billion in the last quater in an industry scheduled to make $60 billion over the next 3 years is great leverage. Throw on 8 out of every 10 ground employees on your side and i couldnt imagine any negotiator not wanting to negotiate in that environment.

 

[Socplat13]

Socopat
Lets take ord.
How many workers in ord airport?
I thought ord had protections currently with express provided the union allow the productivity gains of an attendance policy?
At any rate, lets say that ta1 came in. Lets also say that ord went up to 80% from 70% regional flying. Thats a fair assessment, right?
If ta1 didnt protect one single job in ord that was express or non core in two years then how many members would local 1487 expect to have in two years?
At most, ta1 is a weed that places a drop dead date on 20,000 out of 28,000 jobs. There very well may not be even 5,000 iam members left in 3 years.

Wrong again. Today UA could end the attendance policy and then subcontract the UAX work. You keep talking about years from now, but the future is now and the threat is now.

20,000 out of 28,000 could not be gone if TA1 was ratified. Remember Little Man, under TA1, no UA employee with a seniority date of 4/1/2006 could have been furloughed due to outsourcing. That's 95% of the membership shielded from involuntary furlough due to outsourcing with no expiration date. It goes into the status quo period after the amendable date.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?