Why Tim Nelson is Dangerous to IAM-represented employees at United Airlines

[jet job]

Yes. Ord has more express work protections than all of those others combined in a couple years according to ta1.

Practically every contract i have ever read has scope against being displaced due to outsourcing.

What contracts address express work? Besides the this TA ?

 

[jet job]

That's correct. No way the company can outsource the whole sCO operation that quickly. That would be operational suicide. Especially at the three hubs. That wasn't going to happen. During the merger, (before any elections) the only thing was in doubt was in Cargo. And maybe Chelsea. JR knows about the value of the EWR operation (since he himself ran it); IAH; and CLE and what value they brought to the table, and FL knew about the line stations, and what was going to stay or go. Our workforce is a very productive one, but we were getting paid less than sUA (before their BK) The company went ahead and "harmonized" because if sUA didn't have a function, than we on the sCO shouldn't (even if it is profitable). Our contract had an expiration date, and once that happened, that's when Cargo went.

For the last few weeks, there has been auditors looking at the operations as a whole. Rumors were widespread about outsourcing certain functions, but I think that they came with the point that it would not be worth the hassle or cost to piece out functions in the hub. (Nothing official was said, though) So that's why they are coming up with a new staffing system.


I'm still waiting for answers to both of my questions...........

 

[jet job]

what is it? can't do it because of the operation and the number of people that would be involved or the company can do it? Can't have it both ways. As of today the company can vendor the express work at all stations.

 

[T5towbar]

what is it? can't do it because of the operation and the number of people that would be involved or the company can do it? Can't have it both ways. As of today the company can vendor the express work at all stations.

That is true. Even though there was no indication of that happening on the sCO side a while back, till after our election(s). Still it can't happen overnight in a hub like EWR. It would take months to line up vendors; hire people; and get the operation up to speed. Just like cargo.........lol! They are still having issues and problems there. But anything is possible nowadays. The company is willing to freely spend money........JUST NOT ON US!!!

Like I said before, who would be the vendor of choice in the hubs? Air Wisconsin? To continue the dues flow? (They will be getting out of the flying business soon if they can't keep their flying - just like Eagle.) Seems like a wink and a nod between DL 141 & 142.

As I keep asking.....WHY DID THE NEGOTIATORS NOT USE THE 2005 BANKRUPTCY AGREEMENT AS A BASELINE FOR NEGOTIATIONS AND WORK UPWARD? This TA has FTW written all over it and it has a lot of holes in it. I've lived thru FTW for years and things can be changed on a whim. Now the Early Out (and it's convoluted formula) is tied to all of this. People don't know if they should get out or not and if they will leave with anything.

So don't blame Tim Nelson and others. Or Facebook. If one can read, that's why the TA was shot down. A contract is supposed to protect EVERYONE that is working under it. Leaving out 10% is criminal in my book. Bring back the same, and that will be shot down as well. The surveys said that JOB PROTECTION - SCOPE is the number one thing we want. This ain't it......

 

[jet job]

T5
Is it better to have UAX work where it cannot expand for 3 years or let them take one hub at a time? That is the reality faced by united workers. It can be done or are you saying there is not 9 percent unemployment in the hub cities. Just saying

 

[jet job]

Joe,
Show me the language that protects the work at those 23 stations for just the first day. I know you said that the work of 23 additional stations is protected from any outsourcing so id like for you to show us. Again, please stip using your dopey reasoning and please reference the language. Btw why did you blow up stores by separating it from ramp?

Nelson show me the language that protects me now. The company can replace the aircraft currently flown with the larger RJ and wham were gone. You offer a lot of criticism of the NC but no answers please feel free to give us an example of your attempt to write iron clad language. I will wait..........

 

[jet job]

Josh,
Jetblue uses their own employees in many of there own stations but some work is contracted out. I believe most of their reservations is at home agents, unlike at united where the majority of res work is in manilla, tokyo, etc which our current union leaders have endorsed in ta1 and previous contracts.
Kev has posted that Dl has 43 ramp stations and 17 cargo centers.
Most managements seek to get rid of union. Thus delta keepsthings for employees to keep the union out. United management negotiates to get the union bosses to support contracting out rights.
Under socopats scenerio, the Ta1 would have made delta management look like saviors after united management would have been able to trim 20,000 union jobs over a 3 year period.

Nelson please include skywest when it has more flights than jet blue and delta. They are part of the threat to united workers like myself. The express carriers are just a few years from taking over the entire domestic market

 

[Tim Nelson]

Reread the TA. Scoplat has made some good points. Express work is not protected at all and can be outsourced at anytime. The TA at least protected that work until 2016. We talked about this in the breakroom and our lead overheard us and came over and explained some things to us. She remembered when the whole concourse was filled with big airplanes and rj's were something delta flew over on the other side of the airport.

First off, I question the integrity of the poster since you created this handle just the other day. Therefore, the appearance is that you and scopat are the same person or a tag team.

Nonetheless, there are 1250 jobs protected today for express. That will be 1,250 more than what will be protected in two years if TA1 passed. Certainly, something must be done about express but TA1 didn't save one single express job after a couple years. Clearly, the membership already voiced their opinion that a two year band aid protection isn't acceptable. The leadership sold out. Bottom line. They gave management the scope of 29 ramp stations [want #1], so Smisek allowed a 'witches hourglass' to turn in two years.

TA1 made no sense, when the negotiation team is in the best negotiations environment that has ever existed since the creation of Earth. Much more sound negotiation paths exist.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Talked to some of the "old timers in the bagroom many of them transferred around the system to maintain their jobs. One of them said this was their 4th city. No contract before this one ever protected the locations. Nelson do you believe that a union can force a airline to fly to a airport that is unprofitable?

Some people do travel, like myself and those you referred to. But 90% don't.

At any rate, it isn't about forcing a company to fly to a particular point, but rather, if they fly there, then the work should be ours.

It's all about who is doing the work. Having the work protected in only 7 stations is problematic if passed, but even more problematic in a couple years for the next negotiations. The company will suggest only 3 stations next time and cut out any of the remaining covered stations [if it hasn't already]. There wont' be a next contract in 2016 unless 7 goes down to 4 or 3. Leverage will be killed as the union gave 90% of all stations to management in TA1.

 

[Tim Nelson]

1999 means a lot to me. It moved from 1994 so it now protects me from furlough.

Life Application, what station you in?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson you have not offered any solutions............................why?

I've offered several solutions, just not in your first 25 questions.

The first solution is to listen to the members and trust them. Then you might stop fearing management as much as you do.

The second solution is to get your head out of your arse with a campaign of fear mongering to collect more dues, and instead take complete advantage of the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation is that this is the best negotiation environment known to man. Looking at TA1, we must conclude that no negotiations have taken place over the past 4.5 years.

As far as strategy and timelines, I suggest triggering the next process and call for a release like you did at US AIRWAYS after only 1.5 years. Going 4.5 years without calling for a release reeks of being a pushover.

I'd focus on those 3 suggestions which you can't handle since you are so far up management's arse.

 

[Tim Nelson]

1999 means a lot to me. It moved from 1994 so it now protects me from furlough.

It doesn't protect you from furlough if you don't want to move. Kindly look at the US AIRWAYS contract. You see that 1999 'iron clad no furlough year'? Yep, that's the same one! Then flip back to the back of the book. You see all of those 82 stations? That 1999 no furlough protected so much that 62 of those stations are now gone and over half of the members at that time were laid off. Only folks like me and a few others who were willing to be assigned to a point like PHL, LGA, or ORD kept their jobs.

The thing that I find odd is why have the 1999 date when management gave the MX and Stews a no furlough protection from DOS? Why leave off anyone without 15 years of seniority?

 

[Tim Nelson]

T5
Is it better to have UAX work where it cannot expand for 3 years or let them take one hub at a time? That is the reality faced by united workers. It can be done or are you saying there is not 9 percent unemployment in the hub cities. Just saying

If TA1 were passed, then it puts a big target on ORD. CLE, a hub, would be the new Midwestern hub since TA1 allowed it to be vended out, and more mainline conx will fly into that point. The CLE express flights will shift to ORD, further eliminating more jobs in ORD. Quite frankly, the 7 stations will be under attack. What, you don't think management will take complete advantage of this? Yeah, that's what US AIRWAYS folks thought about BOS when BOS, PIT, PHL, BUF were the only covered stations for USair. After the IBT signed that 1985 contract, BOS work shifted to LGA, BUF all but disappeared as those flights shifted to CMH.

And what is the one thing we can count on in this industry? Yep, you guessed it, mergers!
Say United buys Alaska. Then it wants to shift more of the Asian flights to SEA from SFO. Since TA1 decided to toss out SEA scope, everyone is screwed.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson are you there?

The TA was multi layered. Hard to read but it offered true protection. What you are saying is keep what we have and build from that. It looks like Delaney did exactly that. So whats your beef? If we keep what we have all the company has to do is pull united aircraft and replace with skywest or air wisconsin and we are gone.

multi layered like cake and Bull S. You took the bull S and just piled it higher and deeper. If you had not gutted scope but built upon it then you wouldn't need all the layers of more BS. Cripes, there is so much gray in that contract that you can paint a USS Battleship with it.

Management can pluck and choose where and when since it will have the exclusive right to contract out at 90% of all current stations.

Hey, let's just use the 2006 date since that's better than 1999. ok? I'm management, and I say your work is getting contracted out, and the only available options I have for you are JFK, BOS, EWR. Sorry, no sun city. Now, you must decide if you want to go. If you go, then you will be one of those who sacrificed your current life while most of the others didn't. You better choose a favorite new baseball team because you will be a long way from home if you planned on supporting your previous local team.

And as far as all the babble about express. TA1 did nothing to get the work of one single express flight after a couple years. Obviously, that wasn't good enough for 80% of our members but I will admit that 20% didn't mind short time protections. Dunno, maybe they were going to retire in two years or had something going on, but most folks don't believe the future is today....the future is tomorrow and needs to be planned for. Today is the day to negotiate a leading industry agreement. The reality of the situation is that there can not possibly be a better negotiation environment than the present one.

 

[T5towbar]

It doesn't protect you from furlough if you don't want to move. Kindly look at the US AIRWAYS contract. You see that 1999 'iron clad no furlough year'? Yep, that's the same one! Then flip back to the back of the book. You see all of those 82 stations? That 1999 no furlough protected so much that 62 of those stations are now gone and over half of the members at that time were laid off. Only folks like me and a few others who were willing to be assigned to a point like PHL, LGA, or ORD kept their jobs.

The thing that I find odd is why have the 1999 date when management gave the MX and Stews a no furlough protection from DOS? Why leave off anyone without 15 years of seniority?

That and the 2006 date? makes no sense to me. EVERYBODY should be protected in ANY collective bargaining agreement. That sets a negative precedent. sCO hired a lot of people (and I'm quite sure that sUA hired) after the 2006 date as well.