Why no contract from the Association?

[Jester]

Right now under our contracts if you get laid off you're stuck under the Juniority system. So under Layoff rounds in the first round junior people may get to bump in to say DFW (Nice and cheap) but on the second round the more senior guys to the first bunch get stuck with JFK (Expensive as hell)

Now let's say you're right 1AA and if you get laid off you'll have to transfer back and recall is gone? Would getting rid of the Juniority system and going by a pure seniority bumping system (without the recall) be an improvement, a loss, or just a different way of doing things? (A compromise)

I thought AA had straight seniority with bumping privileges associated with a furlough? US has some convoluted juniority system where people must go to where there are current openings for full-time in other stations, and if and only if, those openings are filled could the furloughees begin to bump out the lowest full-time positions system-wide to the highest seniority furloughees. In addition, there is a $3,000(?) moving allowance to full-time furloughs. Part-time furloughees get bupkis in terms of juniority or moving allowance.

There does appear to be some disagreement on recall rights back to a station if there is a limited window or it is lifetime so long as the furloughee is still in good standing within the company. Some think it expires after 4 years (when if furloughed and on the street, the person is severed from the company), while others say that so long as the person is working as a fleet clerk/agent somewhere in the system it never expires.

 

[P. REZ]

Albert, since you are in the IAMPF are there any survivor benefits? In other words if you die will your spouse continue to draw or is it cut off ?

skydrol,

You have an option to include spouse.

http://mypension.iamnpf.org/faqs/pension-plan-contributions-and-benefits.aspx

P. Rez

 

[Deleted member 14439]

I thought AA had straight seniority with bumping privileges associated with a furlough? US has some convoluted juniority system where people must go to where there are current openings for full-time in other stations, and if and only if, those openings are filled could the furloughees begin to bump out the lowest full-time positions system-wide to the highest seniority furloughees. In addition, there is a $3,000(?) moving allowance to full-time furloughs. Part-time furloughees get bupkis in terms of juniority or moving allowance.

There does appear to be some disagreement on recall rights back to a station if there is a limited window or it is lifetime so long as the furloughee is still in good standing within the company. Some think it expires after 4 years (when if furloughed and on the street, the person is severed from the company), while others say that so long as the person is working as a fleet clerk/agent somewhere in the system it never expires.

No. LAA does NOT use straight seniority in a RIF. We have the juniority system, at least we do in maintenance. I believe FSC has the same language.

 

[1AA]

skydrol,

You have an option to include spouse.

http://mypension.iamnpf.org/faqs/pension-plan-contributions-and-benefits.aspx

P. Rez

Hopefully she won't be working in a field the IAMPF will deem her ineligible to receive spousal benefits.

 

[WeAAsles]

No. LAA does NOT use straight seniority in a RIF. We have the juniority system, at least we do in maintenance. I believe FSC has the same language.

And to add to what dvlhog said. We used to get a special $12,500 moving allowance in addition to the cost of our move depending on if you were being laid off under a protected (PT or FT) status and fully exercised your rights to displace.

We just lost that in the BK (Let's get that one back)

Currently we have a 10 year recall.

 

[Kev3188]

I agree that pure seniority over juniority is the right thing from a purely Union perspective. But doing away with what we're used to in the TWU as far as recall would be very controversial.

But it is sort of like having your cake and wanting to eat it too. On the one hand you want pure seniority to bump (where to choose to work) and on the other hand you want to throw that in the trash to keep an advantage for getting back to where you were last or where you originally started.

Again VERY debatable issue.

Who said anything about throwing recall rights in the trash?

Bump the system where you can hold. Maintain recall rights to where you were displaced from for a set amount of time (IIRC, ours was 5 years?). Voluntarily accept bid to anywhere else, and the recall goes away.

Easy.

 

[WeAAsles]

Who said anything about throwing recall rights in the trash?

Bump the system where you can hold. Maintain recall rights to where you were displaced from for a set amount of time (IIRC, ours was 5 years?). Voluntarily accept bid to anywhere else, and the recall goes away.

Easy.

Everything is easy when you have all parties willing to agree in Negotiations. Otherwise eventually someone is going to have to compromise or walk away from everything else.

Everything though right now is still speculation and rumor until we get to read it all as fact.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Right now under our contracts if you get laid off you're stuck under the Juniority system. So under Layoff rounds in the first round junior people may get to bump in to say DFW (Nice and cheap) but on the second round the more senior guys to the first bunch get stuck with JFK (Expensive as hell)

Now let's say you're right 1AA and if you get laid off you'll have to transfer back and recall is gone? Would getting rid of the Juniority system and going by a pure seniority bumping system (without the recall) be an improvement, a loss, or just a different way of doing things? (A compromise)

The only argument you can make with that logic is FOR geo pay.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

I do not understand how you guys did not know about the restrictions the IAMNPF places upon your employment after retirement. I have known about that for over a year. It was covered in this very forum.

Perhaps you did not think the IAMNPF was a real threat back then and did not take it seriously.

Honestly I would have said something earlier but I thought you guys already knew. Again, it was already covered in this forum by someone else long ago.

 

[Kev3188]

Everything is easy when you have all parties willing to agree in Negotiations. Otherwise eventually someone is going to have to compromise or walk away from everything else.

Everything though right now is still speculation and rumor until we get to read it all as fact.

It would be very telling to me if the company balked at what would currently be a no-cost item.

 

[WeAAsles]

It would be very telling to me if the company balked at what would currently be a no-cost item.

There's an associated cost to every person who comes in to a Station. Be it by transfer or recall. Hypothesizing here but what IF the Company wanted to bring up PT employees in Station who are already badged and ready to go first before drawing upon a transfer list? Actually many times when I've looked on transfer lists (No recalls left) I've noticed PT people in Station pretty high up in that mix.

So each in house PT person who's higher up in seniority on that list compared to Jr people who were layed off would be a cost savings to the Company.

And again "IF" any of this rumor or speculation is true who's to necessarily say this was what the Company wanted? There are a lot of people out there who believe in PURE Seniority for everything including layoffs.

 

[1AA]

I do not understand how you guys did not know about the restrictions the IAMNPF places upon your employment after retirement. I have known about that for over a year. It was covered in this very forum.

Perhaps you did not think the IAMNPF was a real threat back then and did not take it seriously.

Honestly I would have said something earlier but I thought you guys already knew. Again, it was already covered in this forum by someone else long ago.

The problem is most guys on the AA side are too busy crying for USAIR parity.
10 holidays, double time, more money and so on. They all lost track of the big picture of a true Industry Leading Contract. Many will not even look past the money and vacation articles of a TA. They will unknowingly allow scope to be sacrificed and probably not even pay attention to the IAMPF being thrown in there somewhere in the back section near the LOA's. Reducton in force, CS policy, reassignment of work, overtime rules, field trip rules, shift modification, training rules and many other important articles will be changed and we won't even look at them or consider them to be a no vote because we got the VC, OT doubletime and more money. They always say the devil is in the writing.

 

[Kev3188]

There's an associated cost to every person who comes in to a Station. Be it by transfer or recall. Hypothesizing here but what IF the Company wanted to bring up PT employees in Station who are already badged and ready to go first before drawing upon a transfer list? Actually many times when I've looked on transfer lists (No recalls left) I've noticed PT people in Station pretty high up in that mix.

So each in house PT person who's higher up in seniority on that list compared to Jr people who were layed off would be a cost savings to the Company.

And again "IF" any of this rumor or speculation is true who's to necessarily say this was what the Company wanted? There are a lot of people out there who believe in PURE Seniority for everything including layoffs.

Respect, but you're overthinking my post.

All I'm saying is that by itself, RIF language is a no cost item...unless a company is planning to cut people.

How hard (or not) it is to get the company to agree to that sort of language should be seen as a good indicator of whether or not a layoff is pending.

 

[WeAAsles]

Respect, but you're overthinking my post.

All I'm saying is that by itself, RIF language is a no cost item...unless a company is planning to cut people.

How hard (or not) it is to get the company to agree to that sort of language should be seen as a good indicator of whether or not a layoff is pending.

Oh yea, absolutely agree Kev. But just to add a little opinion anyway. I think if there is flight activity movement coming in the future that causes a desire for shifting of "manpower allocation" (As Corporations would call it) I think they will offer buyouts to try and mitigate those movements and bring in lower costs new employees instead?

Again that's just IMO seeing as how it's been done at other Airlines the last few years.

For now at least it's been fun seeing the industry in growth mode and all these snappy enthusiastic kids floating around.

 

[swamt]

The problem is most guys on the AA side are too busy crying for USAIR parity.
10 holidays, double time, more money and so on. They all lost track of the big picture of a true Industry Leading Contract. Many will not even look past the money and vacation articles of a TA. They will unknowingly allow scope to be sacrificed and probably not even pay attention to the IAMPF being thrown in there somewhere in the back section near the LOA's. Reducton in force, CS policy, reassignment of work, overtime rules, field trip rules, shift modification, training rules and many other important articles will be changed and we won't even look at them or consider them to be a no vote because we got the VC, OT doubletime and more money. They always say the devil is in the writing.

I hear exactly what you are saying. We have many of those here, but, with that said we have been working extremely hard on getting all information out to the membership at any and all cost. As well as all electronic communications, text, phone apps, e-mails, twitter, facebook, meetings at union hall and of course our nego comte and observers (when allowed) talking one on one and in large groups on the floor to get the word out on nego's updates. This is the first time this membership is all in with our nego comte and more like 95% united instead of 50/50 like they use to be. This is also the first time all our unions on property have been so involved and focused with each other as well as being fully united.
All companies will throw out the big $$$ in order to get the majority to overlook other areas that will more than likely affect them more than the increases in money. Kind of a way to buy the membership into a contract. Our company thought they could do the same with their verbal offer made at the table (not in writing) and little do they know that it was a slap in the face for the 5 years they have been stallin us for, and the bonus/retro wasn't even close to what is owed to us for the past 5 years. So they seen it go no where, no one even blinked on that one. Great to see the change within the membership, hope you guys can do the same thing for this JCBA coming to you guys.