Why no 1114 decision, months after hearing?

[MCI transplant]

Nice try MCI (hey that rhymes) The point that I did make in case you missed it is that that match money is MINE. It is for MY retirement medical. You have your own fund and have been using it I assume. I find it odd that you imply that I should sacrifice my retirement medical fund in order for you to continue to get coverage. Also I have to consider that I must work for the rest of my life since my retirement pension is frozen and I have no retiree medical now. But if that makes me selfish so be it. As far as I am concerned I have sacrificed more than enough. Sooner or later it has to come down to how this all effects me and if I ever have a chance to retire. As it is now it does not look good. I must wait until almost 68 for social security and I am betting that the age for that and medicare will go up before I get there. You are getting benefits that those of us who are not there yet will never see so don't be judging me or anyone else in my demographic because we are worried about having to eat cat food when we are in our 70s. You got yours and now you want mine? This is not me against you. It is me trying to protect my own interests. I feel your interests are being taken care of at my expense. That is wrong.

OldGuy------- Just to give you an idea of what we're talking about. Last year, AA's medical paid "nothing" for my wifes, or my Medical expenses. We're both on medicare and AA's plan is secondary. -------- But, as ObamaCare comes on line, that will change for all of us! Yours will diffenitly change, that's "if" you keep the TWU (company union) as your representative. AA will simpily drop coverage for all it's Contract employees, and pay the fine, which will be a whole lot cheaper for them!!!------ Oh! It will happen! They will find a way to make it happen!!!! And we'll all be out in the cold paying for our medical insurance, retired, or not! That's the Law! Remmber!

 

[OldGuy@AA]

In other words "it's all about me, brother"....

You are funny. I guess it is all about me (and those who hired on after 82) We have had much taken away from us. Every other demographic has been catered to at one time or another but not B or C scalers. If you have been at AA for any length of time you have seen it too. Let me spell it out. The A scalers had 5 weeks vacation at 17 years and 6 weeks at 25. They even got 7 at 30 years for a while. The rest of us got 5 weeks at 25 years and before we could get to 30, they gave away our 6th week. (for AMTs anyway). The C scalers had no medical for their first year, but the A scalers told them to shut up because they were just lucky to have a job. But yeah it's all about me. I am tired of having my benefits given away. Sick and tired. But fear works and causes people to vote yes. The point is that I (and all others of my demographic) have never been represented by our union. Our benefits and pay has always been sacrificed for others. If you are a former A scaler then I guess the truth hurts, but if you are an AMT and you were hired in 83 or later, then you have been taken to the cleaners also. If that is ok with you then there is something very wrong with your brain. If you are not an AMT then you don't have a dog in this fight and you should mind your own business. Especially if you are one of the Kool aid drinkers who thinks we saved jobs. Like I said, you're funny. But not funny ha ha.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

OldGuy------- Just to give you an idea of what we're talking about. Last year, AA's medical paid "nothing" for my wifes, or my Medical expenses. We're both on medicare and AA's plan is secondary. -------- But, as ObamaCare comes on line, that will change for all of us! Yours will diffenitly change, that's "if" you keep the TWU (company union) as your representative. AA will simpily drop coverage for all it's Contract employees, and pay the fine, which will be a whole lot cheaper for them!!!------ Oh! It will happen! They will find a way to make it happen!!!! And we'll all be out in the cold paying for our medical insurance, retired, or not! That's the Law! Remmber!

MCI.... I understand your situation. I honestly do. And I want you to have medical coverage but each of us had funds set up for us for when we retire and I got half of mine back. I think I should get it all back since it was my fund. That is all. I have nothing against you personally but I don't want to pay for your medical. I'll have my hands full trying to pay for my own and it would help to have the money that AA owes me. That is all. I am not asking for anything that is not mine. I wish you a very long, happy and most importantly, healthy retirement. You have EARNED it and what TWA did to you guys was criminal.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

Yea! My bad! ----- BUt this still is something you'll have to deal with! ----- AND, just for the record, if I were you, I'de get something going on the side. That's the only way to go! Ether that,------ or, get yourself a real job!!!!

I got some stuff going but I gotta get the last kid out of college. As far as a real job, I used to think the one I had was one, but never the less, I am a little long in the tooth to start all over again. I want to stay and fight and try to make this a good job again so maybe the guys that come after me won't have to deal with the stuff we have. But it's not like I have any place to go anyway right?

 

[Bob Owens]

MCI;
You got nothing from TWA for retiree medical correct?
Most retiree medical plans have disappeared, even without BK. The question here isn't whether you are going to lose it but what are you going to get because you prefunded it. I agree that you should get something, but my contention is that AA owes you that money not us and the other half of our funds should go to us and not be used to satisfy AA's obligations to you and the other retirees who prefunded.

 

[OldGuy@AA]

MCI;
You got nothing from TWA for retiree medical correct?
Most retiree medical plans have disappeared, even without BK. The question here isn't whether you are going to lose it but what are you going to get because you prefunded it. I agree that you should get something, but my contention is that AA owes you that money not us and the other half of our funds should go to us and not be used to satisfy AA's obligations to you and the other retirees who prefunded.

This what I have been trying to say. Bob has a much better grasp of the English language than I do. Thanks Bob

 

[TWU informer]

I still wonder where Judge Lane's decision is on this matter?

 

[Bob Owens]

OldGuy------- Just to give you an idea of what we're talking about. Last year, AA's medical paid "nothing" for my wifes, or my Medical expenses. We're both on medicare and AA's plan is secondary. -------- But, as ObamaCare comes on line, that will change for all of us! Yours will diffenitly change, that's "if" you keep the TWU (company union) as your representative. AA will simpily drop coverage for all it's Contract employees, and pay the fine, which will be a whole lot cheaper for them!!!------ Oh! It will happen! They will find a way to make it happen!!!! And we'll all be out in the cold paying for our medical insurance, retired, or not! That's the Law! Remmber!

Already dropped AA's "coverage", went on the wifes.
No DB pension, No medical (I would have to pay AA a lot more than than I would likely get out of it, that makes me a customer so its no longer a "benefit") and the worst work rules in the industry. Sucks being old.

If you are young enough GET OUT. Dont wait for things to get better here, they only get worse.

 

[Bob Owens]

I still wonder where Judge Lane's decision is on this matter?

I think he is sitting on it upon the request of the parties to the agreement.

They dont want to tell us we lost another $3000 to $40,000 till they tell us what the equity stake is hoping that those who only lost a little wont be all that upset after they hear what they are getting in equity. IMO

I dont think the Retirees will be spared, just they will use our money to soften the blow, our funds wouldnt last a year. Hopefully I'm wrong, but if we were getting it back then we would have already.

 

[TWU informer]

I’ve received several emails just in the past week from American Airlines/AMR retirees asking me what I’ve heard on the battle over retiree health and life benefits.
The short answer is that we’re still where we were on Jan. 23, 2013, the date that U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane conducted a hearing on American’s motion. There’s been no decision, and no further hearings are scheduled.
American had asked Lane to rule that the company wasn’t obligated to continue offering the benefits. The Official Committee of Retirees had responded that American most certainly is obligated to do so.
We had this previous Airline Bizitem from April 19 in which we summed up American’s recently stated position in court and Securities and Exchange Commission filings. American said it intended to continue its court battle to do away with those benefits if the issue isn’t settled by the time it exits bankruptcy proceedings and merges with US Airways.
But retirees might be interested in the S-4 prospectus filed with the SEC to lay out the terms of the US Airways-AA merger. As part of that, the parties discussed the history of the discussions by the two airlines, including how the retiree benefit issue was handled.
From the S-4, we learn that US Airways had made elimination of those benefits a condition of the merger in November, then backed off that requirement in the last days of merger talks.
For a little more background (if no resolution), here are some snippets from that document:
Page 50, after a discussion of future pension liabilities: “In addition, AAG may have significant obligations for other post-employment benefits depending on the outcome of the adversary proceeding related to the retiree medical and life insurance obligations filed in the Chapter 11 Cases. The foregoing post-employment benefit obligations could materially adversely affect AAG’s liquidity, financial condition, and results of operations.”
AAG is American Airlines Group Inc., the name of AMR after the merger.
Page 78, as the document discussed US Airways’ Nov. 1 merger proposal that contemplated AMR stakeholders getting 70 percent of a merged company and US Airways shareholders getting 30 percent: “This Equity Split was subject to a number of conditions, including a limitation on AMR’s secured debt at emergence and the elimination in the Chapter 11 Cases of AMR’s liability for other post-employment benefits (‘OPEB&rsquo.”
Page 82, as the document discusses a Jan. 28, 2013, conversation between Doug Parker and Tom Horton, chairmen and CEOs of US Airways and American Airlines respectively: “… Mr. Parker informed Mr. Horton that US Airways Group was prepared to increase the Equity Split to 72/28, subject to all the other terms of the November Proposal, including that AMR’s OPEB liability would be extinguished as part of the Chapter 11 Cases…”
Page 82: “On January 29 and 30, 2013, AMR and US Airways Group, along with their respective financial advisers and legal counsel, together with UCC’s Advisers, met to further discuss and negotiate the merger agreement and conduct due diligence on AMR’s OPEB liability and its treatment in the Chapter 11 Cases.”
Page 82: “On February 4, 2013, Mr. Parker called Mr. Codina [AMR board member Armando Codina] and discussed the economic and governance terms of the potential merger. Mr. Parker informed Mr. Codina that US Airways Group was prepared to eliminate the requirement that AMR’s OPEB liabilities be extinguished as part of the Chapter 11 Cases, subject to reaching agreement on the Equity Split.”
Page 82: “On February 5, 2013, Mr. Parker called Mr. Horton to communicate the terms upon which US Airways Group was prepared to proceed with the transaction, and advised that US Airways Group’s January 28, 2013 proposed 72/28 Equity Split would no longer be subject to AMR’s elimination of the OPEB liabilities in Chapter 11.”
But American is also barred from settling the dispute except in shares of the company, as we see from Pages A61-A62 of the merger agreement as laid out in the S-4:
American Airlines said it would not “settle, compromise, amend or otherwise agree to resolve the other post-employment benefits accounted for under ASC 715-60 Defined Benefit Plans—Other Postretirement (“ OPEB &rdquo of the Debtors other than any settlement, compromise or other agreement that satisfies all such OPEB obligations solely in exchange for a right to receive Plan Shares pursuant to the Plan…” http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/06/the-news-for-american-airlines-retirees-is-that-we-continue-to-have-no-news.html/

 

[AANOTOK]

A lot to decipher.....

 

[MCI transplant]

In other words, they're not off the hook! --------- Yet!

 

[TWU informer]

In other words, they're not off the hook! --------- Yet!

There is something missing from this puzzle that is out of public view.

 

[Bob Owens]

But American is also barred from settling the dispute except in shares of the company, as we see from Pages A61-A62 of the merger agreement as laid out in the S-4:
American Airlines said it would not “settle, compromise, amend or otherwise agree to resolve the other post-employment benefits accounted for under ASC 715-60 Defined Benefit Plans—Other Postretirement (“ OPEB &rdquo of the Debtors other than any settlement, compromise or other agreement that satisfies all such OPEB obligations solely in exchange for a right to receive Plan Shares pursuant to the Plan…

Its kind of what I figured all along, that the plan participants having prefunded those benefits would be entitled to equity in the new company. After all they paid for that coverage, if they had died they would have lost everything, but since they lived they are entitled to get what they paid for. Now the question is will the company claim that the settlement where they give shares, entitles the company to keep our other half of the prefunding accounts? Burdette was seething about those monies, it was obvious that he wanted to pocket them for the company. It would be a grand slam for the company if they found a way to keep them, they issue out shares that cost them nothing in exchange for a few hundred million in hard cash, our cash that is.

 

[TWU informer]

I believe current employees will still get the company match of the prefund trust, and that equity stake shares for retirement benefits will be a seperate equity stake than the current one on the table. The guys leaving that are complaining about not getting equity in current formulas will get equity for the loss of retirement medical in a seperate decision/formula/payout. In the end, this is all one crap of a mess, and there is no fair and equitable divisions because the TWU has allowed so many divisions within the work group that the groups are all harmed differently and monetary value of damages is impossible to calculate fairly.