Who Paid The Loan?

[Bob Owens]

Bob, you're not really that good at mixing apples and oranges.

I dont see it that way. Could you be more specific as to how my points fail to relate?

Point being the union membership at AA had NO voice in securing money from AMFA to represent AMFA organizers at AA. This was $$$ borrowed for litigation, by the organizers, for THEIR own progress in undermining my union. How sweet and how UNDEMOCRATIC, yet you and yours always declare AMFA is so democratic, I guess that only counts in certain times and issues.

I still dont see what you feel is undemocratic about it. You have a choice, you can try and make sure that your money does not go to service this loan, if thats the plan. However we did not get to vote, nor do we get the opportunity to hold those who made the decision to spend the $2 million trying to organize Delta and all the other frivilous expenses cars, redecorating, etc, accountable, now thats undemocratic. The TWU is not YOUR union, you have no say in this union beyond the local level.

You speak of the TWU and cars and such, was there at any time paperwork to support repayment through future dues by a certain local for these?

Like I said, you can vote NO, and not be liable if the majority agrees. We were not given such an option on the cars for International officers, just the bill, without our consent and there is nothing we can do about it.


Nice attempt at AMFAnomics. Why would those or should those that do not want AMFA be liable for one red cent? Try collecting the total from your AMFA supporters and leave my wallet alone.

Are you willing to allow TWU members who want AMFA to opt out also? Shall I be expecting a check for $20, reimbursement for my share of the expense for the Delta campain, plus another $3.45 for the cars for the International? How about the current dollars that are being spent in order to keep AMFA out, can I get my share of that back too? Why is it that you would complain about the possibility that AMFA will use possible future dues to defray the organizing costs yet you have no objection to absorbing or forcing others to absorb similar costs from the TWU?

I dont expect the TWU to reimburse me the costs of the Delta campain, or cars or the AMFA campain. Thats the way it is. But you seem to have a very childish, one way outlook on this whole thing.

If you want to get into monies then why wont you comment on the fact that the company pays the union $3 million a year for Union Business? Dont you know that its a violation of the RLA, Section 152? Or does it not concern you that our representatives are recieving funds over and above what the union pays them, In most circumstances this would be called double dipping, payola, kickback, bribe, get the picture? These same people who are getting these funds are the ones who told us that we should give back more prior to bankruptcy than any other carrier got in bankruptcy. Are you one of those people who is getting a full 40 hour paycheck from the company while also drawing a full time salary from the union?

 

[DECISION 2007]

Bob, you're not really that good at mixing apples and oranges.

I dont see it that way. Could you be more specific as to how my points fail to relate?

Point being the union membership at AA had NO voice in securing money from AMFA to represent AMFA organizers at AA. This was $$$ borrowed for litigation, by the organizers, for THEIR own progress in undermining my union. How sweet and how UNDEMOCRATIC, yet you and yours always declare AMFA is so democratic, I guess that only counts in certain times and issues.

I still dont see what you feel is undemocratic about it. You have a choice, you can try and make sure that your money does not go to service this loan, if thats the plan. However we did not get to vote, nor do we get the opportunity to hold those who made the decision to spend the $2 million trying to organize Delta and all the other frivilous expenses cars, redecorating, etc, accountable, now thats undemocratic. The TWU is not YOUR union, you have no say in this union beyond the local level.

You speak of the TWU and cars and such, was there at any time paperwork to support repayment through future dues by a certain local for these?

Like I said, you can vote NO, and not be liable if the majority agrees. We were not given such an option on the cars for International officers, just the bill, without our consent and there is nothing we can do about it.


Nice attempt at AMFAnomics. Why would those or should those that do not want AMFA be liable for one red cent? Try collecting the total from your AMFA supporters and leave my wallet alone.

Are you willing to allow TWU members who want AMFA to opt out also? Shall I be expecting a check for $20, reimbursement for my share of the expense for the Delta campain, plus another $3.45 for the cars for the International? How about the current dollars that are being spent in order to keep AMFA out, can I get my share of that back too? Why is it that you would complain about the possibility that AMFA will use possible future dues to defray the organizing costs yet you have no objection to absorbing or forcing others to absorb similar costs from the TWU?

I dont expect the TWU to reimburse me the costs of the Delta campain, or cars or the AMFA campain. Thats the way it is. But you seem to have a very childish, one way outlook on this whole thing.

If you want to get into monies then why wont you comment on the fact that the company pays the union $3 million a year for Union Business? Dont you know that its a violation of the RLA, Section 152? Or does it not concern you that our representatives are recieving funds over and above what the union pays them, In most circumstances this would be called double dipping, payola, kickback, bribe, get the picture? These same people who are getting these funds are the ones who told us that we should give back more prior to bankruptcy than any other carrier got in bankruptcy. Are you one of those people who is getting a full 40 hour paycheck from the company while also drawing a full time salary from the union?

I still dont see what you feel is undemocratic about it. You have a choice, you can try and make sure that your money does not go to service this loan, if thats the plan. However we did not get to vote, nor do we get the opportunity to hold those who made the decision to spend the $2 million trying to organize Delta and all the other frivilous expenses cars, redecorating, etc, accountable, now thats undemocratic. The TWU is not YOUR union, you have no say in this union beyond the local level.
I have a choice Bob, why should I need to chose anything Bob? Is AMFA organizing Delta Bob? Will that scam be paid for by future dues? What the TWU does and what my local does is two different items. Will Local 12 be the only Local paying back Stewart's lawyer expense? Care to go into detail for me?

I dont expect the TWU to reimburse me the costs of the Delta campain, or cars or the AMFA campain. Thats the way it is. But you seem to have a very childish, one way outlook on this whole thing.

So I am childish now? Why Bob? Because I do not get the same buzz from the kool-aid that you do? You seem to be very self-serving and short sighted Bob.

If you want to get into monies then why wont you comment on the fact that the company pays the union $3 million a year for Union Business? Dont you know that its a violation of the RLA, Section 152?

And for how many years Bob has this been in violation? Why has this not be prosecuted by the courts Bob. Is it that big of a secret? Or could it be Bob that you need to upgrade your lawyer degree?

 

[Bob Owens]

I have a choice Bob, why should I need to chose anything Bob?

???Calm down, take a few deep breaths. Is the possible burden of having a say in your future that worrisome to you? Dont worry, you will be able to handle it.

Is AMFA organizing Delta Bob?

I believe that the mechanics at Delta are trying to organize with AMFA.

Will that scam be paid for by future dues?

Actually I support a well funded organizing campain. Once AMFA gets in at AA I will try to get AMFA to committ funds to finishing the job by not only organizing the rest of the airlines but also the third party providers.


What the TWU does and what my local does is two different items.

So your local is not TWU?

Will Local 12 be the only Local paying back Stewart's lawyer expense?

Dont know, and really dont care!

Care to go into detail for me?

Not really, as I dont have any details or real interest in it. I think I made my point. You were going after the most trivial of issues when you chose to ignore the same thing being done with the TWU. Let me ask you this. Your Local spent thousands of dollars getting a full page ad in a New York labor newspaper calling Chuck and myself the enemies of labor. Was that put to a membership vote?How does your local, putting thousands of dollars into the New York economy, help you guys in Tulsa?

So I am childish now? Why Bob?

If you werent then you could answer that better than me. I said your outlook is childish for the reasons I stated above.

Because I do not get the same buzz from the kool-aid that you do? You seem to be very self-serving and short sighted Bob.

Self serving, everyone can be said to be self serving except Ghandi, Mother Tereasa and Jesus Christ. Its merely a matter of to what degree that one is self serving. Self seriving in that I want to see the class and craft that I work in get better pay and benifits, yes, I'm guilty. Self serving in that I would support keeping something in place that is destructive to all working people simply because it allows me to make over $100000 a year from them while collecting another $60,000 from the company, no thats not me.

Short sighted? Hardly. I'm looking at the long term. For twenty years we have been in decline. We need to restructure the whole thing. Even members of the AFL-CIO, in private of course, recognize this. They know that there is a problem, and it goes way up in the organization. One that I spoke to agreed that we need to form unions that organize across corporate boundries and make it so that we can standardize contracts. We need to remove labor costs as a means to a competative edge. He admitted that this would never happen in the current structure where unions try to help one company grow at the expense of other companies represented by other unions, and that we should leave the current unions, reorganize under a single union and then go back into the AFL-CIO. How is that a short term outlook compared to yours? What is your long term strategy to reverse our decline? We have been waiting for twenty years for these unions to come up with one. All they say is "get involved", but when you do they say "Shut up and do nothing".

And for how many years Bob has this been in violation?

Since 1926.

Why has this not be prosecuted by the courts Bob.

Not yet. Wait and see. I spoke to the OLMS yesterday.

Is it that big of a secret?

Not anymore it isnt.

Or could it be Bob that you need to upgrade your lawyer degree?

Do you need a law degree to know right from wrong? You dont think that having union officials getting paid a full time salary in the six figures plus collecting a check from the company equal to your 40 hours that you actually worked for the company is wrong? You dont think that their choice to keep that additional salary while telling us to give up everything that we did was wrong? At the very least they should have thrown that three million towards the $660 million.

 

[DECISION 2007]

"Actually I support a well funded organizing campain. Once AMFA gets in at AA I will try to get AMFA to committ funds to finishing the job by not only organizing the rest of the airlines but also the third party providers."

Bob, have you ever given thought to doing mechanic work? You certainly have a big agenda. And after reading Dave Stewart's post, he stated the hobbit told him, over dinner, that we did not owe AMFA a dime, surely the hobbit, nor Dave, would ever lie.

 

[local 12 proud]

the delta mechanics are indeed pursuing AMFA as all the others airline mechanics have chosen to do, AMFA does'nt have to approach the mechanics, they seek out the AMFA! i dont see any mechanics at the airlines seeking to bring in the catch all industrial unions because they see how they have failed the mechanics craft and class miserably. this wave is getting bigger by the day, kinda like a sunami and it will overtake every airline one by one, catch the wave or be swept under!

 

[DECISION 2007]

the delta mechanics are indeed pursuing AMFA as all the others airline mechanics have chosen to do, AMFA does'nt have to approach the mechanics, they seek out the AMFA! i dont see any mechanics at the airlines seeking to bring in the catch all industrial unions because they see how they have failed the mechanics craft and class miserably. this wave is getting bigger by the day, kinda like a sunami and it will overtake every airline one by one, catch the wave or be swept under!

The "sunami" I see is the loss of jobs created by AMFA's ineptness, the wave of AMT's going to different careers due to their AMFA following, that is a wave to be proud alright.

All bow to the king!

 

[local 12 proud]

The "sunami" I see is the loss of jobs created by AMFA's ineptness, the wave of AMT's going to different careers due to their AMFA following, that is a wave to be proud alright.

All bow to the king!

so 2007 your stating that loss of jobs is due to the union and not economics? then your basically admitting that the twu allowed massive layoffs on top of industry leading concessions and it falls entirely upon the shoulders of the union? glad we got tht one right, only difference is AMFA keeps the contract intact where as the twu lets the company just gut it! why? "BECAUSE THEY CAN DO THAT" :angry:

 

[Bob Owens]

"Actually I support a well funded organizing campain. Once AMFA gets in at AA I will try to get AMFA to committ funds to finishing the job by not only organizing the rest of the airlines but also the third party providers."

Bob, have you ever given thought to doing mechanic work? You certainly have a big agenda. And after reading Dave Stewart's post, he stated the hobbit told him, over dinner, that we did not owe AMFA a dime, surely the hobbit, nor Dave, would ever lie.

I do mechanics work nearly every day. You forget that we all dont enjoy the luxury of having off on the weekends.

By the way what are you supposed to be doing now?

OK so if it doesnt have to be paid back then what are you guys making an issue for? Could it be that you dont have anything meaningful like the fact that the company pays the TWU $3 million a year that goes directly into union officers pockets?

How come you guys have not responded to that thread?

 

[Bob Owens]

"Actually I support a well funded organizing campain. Once AMFA gets in at AA I will try to get AMFA to committ funds to finishing the job by not only organizing the rest of the airlines but also the third party providers."

Bob, have you ever given thought to doing mechanic work? You certainly have a big agenda. And after reading Dave Stewart's post, he stated the hobbit told him, over dinner, that we did not owe AMFA a dime, surely the hobbit, nor Dave, would ever lie.

I asked you four questions after answering all your questions but you did not answer any of them. Why is that? Why is it that you refuse to extend the same courtesy that you expect?

My guess is you realize that your answer would only reinforce my arguement.

I do mechanics work nearly every day. You forget that we all dont enjoy the luxury of having off on the weekends.

By the way what are you supposed to be doing now?

OK so if it doesnt have to be paid back then what are you guys making an issue for? Could it be that you dont have anything meaningful like the fact that the company pays the TWU $3 million a year that goes directly into union officers pockets?

How come you guys have not responded to that thread?

 

[j7915]

"Actually I support a well funded organizing campain. Once AMFA gets in at AA I will try to get AMFA to committ funds to finishing the job by not only organizing the rest of the airlines but also the third party providers."

Bob, have you ever given thought to doing mechanic work? You certainly have a big agenda. And after reading Dave Stewart's post, he stated the hobbit told him, over dinner, that we did not owe AMFA a dime, surely the hobbit, nor Dave, would ever lie.

I do mechanics work nearly every day. You forget that we all dont enjoy the luxury of having off on the weekends.

By the way what are you supposed to be doing now?

OK so if it doesnt have to be paid back then what are you guys making an issue for? Could it be that you dont have anything meaningful like the fact that the company pays the TWU $3 million a year that goes directly into union officers pockets?

How come you guys have not responded to that thread?

Nice Bob, is there a difference between mechanics work on weekends versus during the week? Lest I am mistaken line stations have always had weekend work. funny about that, passengers actually want to fly on weekends. Maybe you should have considered that when you hired on, and then decided to stay in this line of work. You don't have to go the line about us here inTulsa, and I don't want to move etc. The fact is you staid with that work so live with it.

To an earlier posting challenging whether AMFA opponents don't want a say in their future, last I checked there is a local election, and those folks elect or nominate if you will the officers at the national level. So I have a say in the affairs of the TWU.

What we have here is sort of a Board of Directors situation, if you don't like whom the BOD picks vote the directors out. Unlike the BOD of a company all members, shareholders have a vote. Of course like in national political elections 33% plus are awol when it comes to voting.

As I have said before several times, any candidate for a national office under AMFA had better be from my station and local or I would NOT vote for him; because I will not have had any chance to associate with the individual for any length of time. I can indirectly control who will be in the national, but who I vote for at the local level.

 

[twuer]

From Bob. . .
OK so if it doesnt have to be paid back then what are you guys making an issue for? Could it be that you dont have anything meaningful like the fact that the company pays the TWU $3 million a year that goes directly into union officers pockets?

Hey Bob,

You keep bringing this up but have shown NO proof. What is your source? We would ALL like to see where you get your "legitimate" information. It wouldn't be Bob's heresay now would it? About like that CPI graph you posted?? What was the source of that??? Oh, there wasn't one. . .you just came up with that all by yourself? Oh, I see how you get your information. And we are suppose to take what you say for real???

:huh: <_< :huh: <_<

 

[Bob Owens]

You keep bringing this up but have shown NO proof.

The Proof is right on the hand out that showed the "Vermont Plan" Is says "Eliminate company paid union business". As far as proof about the International getting paid I dont think that the OLMS wants to post anymore details but not to worry I gave them what I had in addition to what I posted.
What is your source?

As I mentioned in my posts I did the checkoff, so I know that Gless was still recieving a check from the company while acting both as a full time President and as a full time International Rep because it was reported on the payroll generated checkoff, plus Gless and Yingst both told people they were taking a paycut also.

We would ALL like to see where you get your "legitimate" information.

Could you be more specific about what you dispute so I can tell you how I came to that conclusion?

It wouldn't be Bob's heresay now would it?

Well they statements that Gless and Yingst said would be heresay unless we asked those who they said it directly to, and I gave the OLMS those names.

About like that CPI graph you posted?? What was the source of that??? Oh, there wasn't one. . .you just came up with that all by yourself? Oh, I see how you get your information. And we are suppose to take what you say for real???

There were Two main sources. The CPI I got from a government website and the payroll figures I got from Ed Koziatek, with the exception of 2001 on, which I got from the company website showing the contract since the union, in flagrant violation of the LMRDA, has failed to provide us with a copy. Since CPI figures are of the past I used the 30 year average of 3% from 2002 on. However most in the labor movement, including Jim Little feel that the official CPI understates the real effect of inflation that working people feel, in other words we are worse off than the graph indicates.Would you like to see all the data? Ask Jim Little for it since I sent it to him a while ago. He agreed with the original graph (1980-2001)but added that I should have used higher numbers for the inflation rate that he got from some other source. In other words like I said, that would reflect an even steeper decline.

In all fairness we should move this to the proper thread.

 

[Johnny Lunchbox]

"Actually I support a well funded organizing campain. Once AMFA gets in at AA I will try to get AMFA to committ funds to finishing the job by not only organizing the rest of the airlines but also the third party providers."

Bob, have you ever given thought to doing mechanic work? You certainly have a big agenda. And after reading Dave Stewart's post, he stated the hobbit told him, over dinner, that we did not owe AMFA a dime, surely the hobbit, nor Dave, would ever lie.

I asked you four questions after answering all your questions but you did not answer any of them. Why is that? Why is it that you refuse to extend the same courtesy that you expect?

My guess is you realize that your answer would only reinforce my arguement.

I do mechanics work nearly every day. You forget that we all dont enjoy the luxury of having off on the weekends.

By the way what are you supposed to be doing now?

OK so if it doesnt have to be paid back then what are you guys making an issue for? Could it be that you dont have anything meaningful like the fact that the company pays the TWU $3 million a year that goes directly into union officers pockets?

How come you guys have not responded to that thread?

Bob, perhaps he is like the rest of us, we read your first line then hit the scroll button.

 

[Bob Owens]

Nice Bob, is there a difference between mechanics work on weekends versus during the week? Lest I am mistaken line stations have always had weekend work. funny about that, passengers actually want to fly on weekends. Maybe you should have considered that when you hired on, and then decided to stay in this line of work. You don't have to go the line about us here inTulsa, and I don't want to move etc. The fact is you staid with that work so live with it.


The fact is that when I made the committment to do this the pay and benifits were good. I had no idea that the TWU and people like you were going to destroy the profession as shown on the graph.

To an earlier posting challenging whether AMFA opponents don't want a say in their future, last I checked there is a local election, and those folks elect or nominate if you will the officers at the national level. So I have a say in the affairs of the TWU.


No you only have a say in selecting the people who can vote. You dont even have the means to verify how they vote. And even at the Convention nobody gets to vote on ATD Director.

What we have here is sort of a Board of Directors situation, if you don't like whom the BOD picks vote the directors out. Unlike the BOD of a company all members, shareholders have a vote. Of course like in national political elections 33% plus are awol when it comes to voting.


So are you saying that unions should follow the corporate example of Democracy? The same system that the AFL-CIO regularly lambasts? You guys are so out of touch with the labor movement.

As I have said before several times, any candidate for a national office under AMFA had better be from my station and local or I would NOT vote for him; because I will not have had any chance to associate with the individual for any length of time. I can indirectly control who will be in the national, but who I vote for at the local level.


And how much time have you, or your delegates associated with Sonny Hall? How you vote is your peroggative. A perrogative that you do not have with the TWU.

 

[High Speed Steel]

Now that the amfa has been defeated in it's raid at AA, this thread comes back to mind. In reference to the the loan afforded the amfa organizers, how is it to be paid back? I was under the impression that "future dues", where to cover this expense.

With the failure of the representational bid by the amfa, will the expense of the loan now lay upon the backs of the members amfa represents at their respective carriers? Such as SW, NW, UA, and etc.

Just curious.....

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amfa: The YUGO of the labor movement
Where bargaining means YOU GO....!