What's It Gonna Take To Get More Crjs?
- Thread starter Bluestreak
- Start date
Well when you still have pilots eager to spend their vacations-- and presumably their own money-- on training themselves on a new type, all for the sake of "staying in aviation," it shows that jobs in this industry still have a ways to fall until they truly hit rock bottom.
I guess we're not there yet, even considering all that has happened over the last couple of years.
I guess we're not there yet, even considering all that has happened over the last couple of years.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
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USAir_begins_with_u:
It’s not about honor, it’s about getting the best deal for the members.
Let’s look at the facts:
On September 10 US Airways proposed the pilots take a 16.5% pay cut and on September 20 a 19.5% pay cut.
In the company’s AFA opener the company proposed a 15% pay cut.
Today both unions face a 23% pay cut.
ALPA’s advisors predicted that each proposal would get worse. Guess what? The advisors were right and the union leaders wrong.
Furthermore, the bankruptcy judge cannot pick and choose what he wants in a contract. All the judge can do is pick either the company or unions proposal, therefore, the union can fight all it wants and will likely lose the oral and written arguments presented in court.
Today the Washington Post reported bankruptcy experts said the company's request to impose salary cuts is fairly common and does not leave workers with many options. The practice is becoming common, particularly among airlines, said Robert Bruno, professor of labor and industrial relations at the University of Illinois.
Congress amended the bankruptcy law decades ago to make it slightly more difficult for employers to nullify union agreements. The change was designed to "prevent any employer from simply using a bankruptcy court to bust the union," Bruno said. But he said it has proved not to be much of an obstacle. "Employees in airlines are facing looking at having legacy benefits wiped out," Bruno said. "The union is in no position to defend its contract."
Also noteworthy, the S.1113(e) cuts are not negotiable and do not require membership ratification. In fact, these cuts will be imposed and could have been less, accept for union leadership failure, which could make union leaders personally liable for DFR lawsuits.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
It’s not about honor, it’s about getting the best deal for the members.
Let’s look at the facts:
On September 10 US Airways proposed the pilots take a 16.5% pay cut and on September 20 a 19.5% pay cut.
In the company’s AFA opener the company proposed a 15% pay cut.
Today both unions face a 23% pay cut.
ALPA’s advisors predicted that each proposal would get worse. Guess what? The advisors were right and the union leaders wrong.
Furthermore, the bankruptcy judge cannot pick and choose what he wants in a contract. All the judge can do is pick either the company or unions proposal, therefore, the union can fight all it wants and will likely lose the oral and written arguments presented in court.
Today the Washington Post reported bankruptcy experts said the company's request to impose salary cuts is fairly common and does not leave workers with many options. The practice is becoming common, particularly among airlines, said Robert Bruno, professor of labor and industrial relations at the University of Illinois.
Congress amended the bankruptcy law decades ago to make it slightly more difficult for employers to nullify union agreements. The change was designed to "prevent any employer from simply using a bankruptcy court to bust the union," Bruno said. But he said it has proved not to be much of an obstacle. "Employees in airlines are facing looking at having legacy benefits wiped out," Bruno said. "The union is in no position to defend its contract."
Also noteworthy, the S.1113(e) cuts are not negotiable and do not require membership ratification. In fact, these cuts will be imposed and could have been less, accept for union leadership failure, which could make union leaders personally liable for DFR lawsuits.
Regards,
USA320Pilot
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
USA320pilot, this is all leading up to a strike by one of the unions. It seems simple to me that if management truly wanted this airline to succeed they would bargain in good faith. I don't think they even know what the two words "good faith" mean! Sorry, 23% is completely unreasonable. The judge has advisors; therefore, I assume they'll come to some common ground in the middle - so to speak.
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
USA320Pilot said:
Anger should be PLACED directly where it belongs...THIS INEPT MANAGMENT.
You may think the company will win...but what the analyst and your "so called" ALPA legal advisiors are ignorant of is that companies don't survive when they blackmail their employees and strip them of their livilihoods and wages and place them in personal financial ruin.
The company will gain nothing from those actions in the end of this process.
Walmartgreeter
Veteran
- Mar 6, 2003
- 1,430
- 1,143
USA320Pilot said:
I guess it would be unfair for me to say I speak for even a minority on this...but to me, pilot wise, it has NEVER been about the paycut. I personally would consider a flat 40% cut in salary worth taking to live and fight another day. "Live" is the key word. It is this elimination of work rules, the 20-25 day proposed work months (Southwest does it all in 14 16 days), and the absolute control the company wants over my life. Eliminating outdated work rules is necessary, but to degree most of them are now gone. It is down to the company running not only a moneymaking operation, but an effiecient one...the two work hand in hand. Mr. Lakefield (who would rather be playing golf) is no leader, and the fact he associates with the likes of "shut her down....no wait, don't...no do it" Bronner and his henchmen is enought to make anyone gag. Again, for me it is not the money, it is the job. You keep asking my kind to simply quit. If you are in such a majority, why not take 20% above what they are asking and simply write a check to management. You are the king of all management spin. I only wish you had the full report I had of what the PA Senators had to say behind closed doors about our situation. There is evil and wrong at work here, and you are fully behind it. Greeter.
USA320Pilot
Veteran
- May 18, 2003
- 8,175
- 1,539
Let;s look at the facts:
On September 10 US Airways proposed the pilots take a 16.5% pay cut and on September 20 a 19.5% pay cut.
In the company’s AFA opener the company proposed a 15% pay cut.
Today both unions face a 23% pay cut.
Judge Mitchell has one option: Accept the company or union proposal in its entirety.
Today the Washington Post reported bankruptcy experts said the company's request to impose salary cuts is fairly common and does not leave workers with many options. The practice is becoming common, particularly among airlines, said Robert Bruno, professor of labor and industrial relations at the University of Illinois.
Congress amended the bankruptcy law decades ago to make it slightly more difficult for employers to nullify union agreements. The change was designed to "prevent any employer from simply using a bankruptcy court to bust the union," Bruno said. But he said it has proved not to be much of an obstacle. "Employees in airlines are facing looking at having legacy benefits wiped out," Bruno said. "The union is in no position to defend its contract."
Regards,
USA320Pilot
On September 10 US Airways proposed the pilots take a 16.5% pay cut and on September 20 a 19.5% pay cut.
In the company’s AFA opener the company proposed a 15% pay cut.
Today both unions face a 23% pay cut.
Judge Mitchell has one option: Accept the company or union proposal in its entirety.
Today the Washington Post reported bankruptcy experts said the company's request to impose salary cuts is fairly common and does not leave workers with many options. The practice is becoming common, particularly among airlines, said Robert Bruno, professor of labor and industrial relations at the University of Illinois.
Congress amended the bankruptcy law decades ago to make it slightly more difficult for employers to nullify union agreements. The change was designed to "prevent any employer from simply using a bankruptcy court to bust the union," Bruno said. But he said it has proved not to be much of an obstacle. "Employees in airlines are facing looking at having legacy benefits wiped out," Bruno said. "The union is in no position to defend its contract."
Regards,
USA320Pilot
PITbull
Veteran
- Dec 29, 2002
- 7,784
- 456
Zeus,
I would expect you to say that, because you particulary do not understand the "human condition".
Mangement win will be short lived and an illusion at a glance. The end of this process will reveal if they have gained anything.
BTW, did you get the "worry beads"? B)
I would expect you to say that, because you particulary do not understand the "human condition".
Mangement win will be short lived and an illusion at a glance. The end of this process will reveal if they have gained anything.
BTW, did you get the "worry beads"? B)
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
USA320Pilot said:
They'll defend my contract because that's what I expect them to do as a union member. I won't settle for anything less than what's right. And, so far, the guys from PA have got it right and figured out the gross inequity in the company's proposals.
L
luvn737s
Guest
Why do you need PIC time? Got a United interview coming up?Bluestreak said:
Your probably aware of this but just between UAL and U there are 4000 pilots with a ton of PIC time looking for work. Within 6 months we could be looking at 3 times that many. I'd suggest, unfortunately, that you make plans on staying in the RJ as a career.
The only thing that may save you from poverty would be going back to school, getting an MBA and re-applying on the corporate side of the airline biz. Just try not to act too interested in the planes.
L
luvn737s
Guest
Bluestreak-
As an aside, would you go fly for WN if they instituted a B scale that paid say, $70 an hour for the first 5 years and then merged with the A scale after that to top out at $100/hr or so, but had great benefits? Would this be an adequate return on your investment?
As an aside, would you go fly for WN if they instituted a B scale that paid say, $70 an hour for the first 5 years and then merged with the A scale after that to top out at $100/hr or so, but had great benefits? Would this be an adequate return on your investment?
TheLazarusman
Advanced
:angry: Define Poverty. Let's talk about child support, student loans...23% paycut, define poverty.
You have posted that management is not the savior and I say neither is your political buddies. They will not come to the rescue and have said so on TV. The judge will look out for the money people and the employees will be collateral damage. It will be no different then it was for all the mill workers because the airline workers are not an exceptional breed and exempt from corporate America's treachery. Yes, I know you are on the inside and I’m not, but do you really believe everything some politician tells you…not.PITbull said:Greeter,
I was told the same thing. These political leaders know what this is about and keenly are aware what this managment is about.
I have reason to believe not to fear the judge in this instance....reasonability, justice and truth will prevail.
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