What Would You Do…

[reddog]

V REF

No. Never been to Thunder Basin. I was an Edmonton pool driver.

T REX

Obviously Non-Rev flights are required to reposition a/c from one customer to the next, however if you are driving, you are working and should be paid for it. Whether the flight is rev or not you still have to exercise your skills and knowledge to get the flight done safely and efficiently. You all paid to gain your skills in time, cash and grief and should be compensated when you use them for someone else's benefit.

 

[downwash]

Saying it doesn't make it so, Reddog. If you've been around since 'Shirley' days one would think you'd have learned that a rigid attitude doesn't make life better, even if apparently easier. I wish you better than you appear to have had.

 

[jetbox]

Well said Downwash. Reddog, if your going to be so stringent on getting paid for the non-rev you fly, then your employer should be equally stringent on not paying you for unused minimums. After all, if your A/C is collecting mins, that means you're sitting on your ass NOT FLYING=NOT WORKING!!!!!!! (And don't give me that bullsh-- about doing P.R. whith the customers when you're not flying. If you're that picky about non-rev, you're probably the kind of guy who refuses to go the extra mile to help the company)
If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you insist on getting paid for non-rev and not getting paid for unused mins this coming summer and see how much farther ahead you will be?!
Sorry, I don't mean to be so direct but it just pisses me off when I hear guys who expect their employer to bend over backwards for them when they're not prepared to give back!!! Those are usually the same guys that will jump ship for an extra $5 an hour.!!

OK, I'm done venting!!!

 

[reddog]

I can't believe you guys. Making excuses for your employers while they are laughing all the way to the bank with the money they should have paid you.

Jetbox,

Even if you are on standby and not flying your employer is using you and your skills to fulfill a contract, consequently he should be compensating you.

As far as bending over backwards for one's employer. If I have been treated well and paid what my skills are worth I always go the extra mile for my employer as would most other people. Loyalty starts at the top, goes goes down to the bottom of the ladder and then comes back up if it is earned.

P.S. Sorry guys, you've got my case wrong. I've always done very well.

 

[Albert Ross]

Well, I can tell you that the people I was with last year paid all non-rev, including to Dryden, and back, and for training. Their opinion was that they were paying you for your time, and it wasn't part of a pilot's job to invest in their company. It was that last comment that makes me willing to work for them anytime, although I'll likely be busy doing something else this summer.

Phil

 

[bubbleboy]

Reddog - same old song and dance isn't it? "We've always done it this way so shut the he77 up". Blah Blah. Once again pilots are expected to play along with spineless owners and their inability to command proper tariffs. We have a skill that we diminish when we agree to give it away for the sake of the "team". You hit the nail on the head. Owners greatly benefit from an aircraft parked on unused mins. Why wouldn't they profit share?

What a disgruntled radical employee I must be. Shame on me. Truth is, the 110% that I currently give to whoever I work for might go even higher if I genuinely felt my skills were appreciated. But as is the Canadian way, I will #### and whine about it while saying "Thank-you Sir, can I have another"

Why not implement a weighted pay scale for non-rev? 100 mile trip = 10% of regular flight play. 500 miles = 50% and so on. Something is better than nothing. I did a lot of non-rev last year and all it did was pi$$ me off. Worked hard, paid big bucks, paid my dues, and here I am giving it away. No wonder we are stuck in the confines of an industry that refuses to grow up for the fear that some of the "adventure" will be taken away.

Jetbox is in left field if he assumes every driver that heads out the door this year is going to be parked on a job that pays 3 to 4 hour mins. What about the poor sap that gets to non-rev to the job to sit for an hour a day with no mins. Oh I forgot, that doesn't happen in this "industry". <_<

Here's the hard truth boys as one customer pointed out to me last year. Helicopter pilot's and operator's are $20 ho's. If you won't do the job on my terms, I will go and get another one to do the job for $15. :down:

As long as owners are giving the hardware away, and the pilots are following along, who can disagree with idiots like that?

 

[skullcap]

Bubbleboy;

"once again the spineless owners and their inability to command proper tariffs"

and "as long as the owners are giving the hardware away and the pilots are going along"

Obviously you are not an owner or have a friggin clue what it going on in this industry as to the shti predicament the owners are in. With the number of "ho's" coming in and dropping big dollars to take the market share where do you think that puts a honest reliable safe company when these type of people come into the market? Have you heard the term resistance is futile? People are in many places fighting hard to maintain their market, and thus maintain jobs for pilots and engineers.

Why not go and ask a few pilots who don't mind going along with companies who bid turnkey seismic and tell the pilots that they move "x number of bags" per hour and when the pilot can't they tell em to fudge the books. Get some of their names put some customers names up of the block and open a few cans of worms? Everyone knows about what is going on, so fill in some forms and send them in to tc. Get these as2h99es off the street and into the courtrooms where they belong. You'd think that with all this ranting and whining that may the truth should be out, get this "associations" to get after their own people for this criminal actions going on a daily basis. How can a company buy a brand new B2 when they sell 206 wet for 643 per hour, easy when you overbill. Hear that word, OVERBILL. This is the biggest killer in this industry, second is the forging of logbooks to maintain the status quo, not the measly problem of who the hell pays n/r. There is a 212 drilling company that doesn't pay non rev or unused mins, guess what everyone is happy there, why, they fly good hardware and get treated right. You will find that there is no ryme or reason so get over it. Go after what IS wrong.

I mentioned a while ago about why the canadian crossed the road? to get to the middle. You know what there is an eighteen wheeler filled with manure headed the way of our industry and will be a shi12est soon, unless these pilots(new and old ) alike quit this namby pamby quibbling and get on with stopping the cheating and robbing of our customers and forging documents. The problem is that pilots make more money in most cases doing this, the customer in the big smoke think they are getting a hell of a deal and guess what, the job costs the same now a 643 wet as it did when 750 dry. The dollars per channel moved on seismic is the same with a 500 as with a B2. It is time the customers and the gov't wake up and stop it. Deregulation will infact kill this industry or make all operators whores, unless pilots and engineers put a stop to it, the companies committing the fraud won't help but the rest of us will.

This is only one of the reasons I want to remain nameless, to help those who want to go the right direction to find these criminal ba22ards. To start, begin in Alberta and work your way east and west.

Done ranting now.
sc

 

[bubbleboy]

Skullcap: I was preparing to get my peepee spanked for that one! I am not too big to admit my shortcomings.

I am not an owner, but I did look into it and know how much it costs to operate in this business - in broad strokes anyway. Scary stuff!! I guess my frustration comes from looking at my own bottom line and not that of my respective employer. I use the n/r issue as one indicator of the overall health of our industry, to be sure there are issues out there that are far more important.

I agree with you. There needs to be an accounting - not one that is going to have a short term benefit for certain segments of this industry, but something farther reaching.

I should back-pedal on the "spineless" operators comment - a bit harsh. I have been fortunate to work for operators that make an attempt to run things well. I want to see the people I work for succeed and prosper, for as they go therefore should I, but does it need to be on the backs of employees? Agreed, in the bigger picture n/r is not a deal breaker but one that generates much debate in the heat of summer when every rev hour counts. One hour spent n/r is one less spent rev.

Nobody owes me a living but by the same token somebody needs to stand up and admit that nobody owes operator "X" a living because he went out and bought a helicopter and proceeded to flood an already sinking market. I know, I know, it's a free market. A "free" market that is apparently quite expensive! Right now the honest operators, their drivers, and engineers are subsidizing those operators that are practising creative accounting.

I have no seismic background, and cannot split hairs with you on the numbers, but agree with what you are saying about the floating bottom line. Some serious allegations there.

I have in the past made my position pretty clear as to how an Association might better the industry. Suffice to say that the potential exists to at least better educate those not-in-the-know as to what is really happening, and work WITH those owners who would endeavor to make it a better place, both short and long term.

BB B)

 

[skullcap]

BB;

Kind of thought you had a head on your shoulders, yes we need to get our collective shti together and get after the problems.

They aren't allegations, you only hear the same story so many times from so many sources before you know it is happening. I know of an operator who lost a 180 hr contract with a B2 to another B2 operator by 40% two weeks ago. Creative accounting my butt, not caring about making money so that you can lease yourself aircraft is the name of the game there. Conflict of interest is against the law too.

What is the saying, fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. We have been fooled once, let us not let it happen again.

sc

 

[reddog]

As to Criminal operators, isn't that what the HAC is all about, working together to solve their problems and group representation to TC?

And that's exactly why we need OUR assoc. too. With an assoc. less than scrupulous operators could be identified to the members so that they would be able to make a more informed decision in regards to working for them.

And yes, I realise that some pilots will always be attracted to the dark side. At least they will go knowing what they are getting into and who to blame if it all falls apart.

And (last "And") Fly-by-night operators are not a good excuse for denying pilots the compensation they deserve. For operators to say they cannot afford to pay up now because of their black sheep is one thing, but to say "we have never paid non-rev so you are an undeserving, ungrateful, grasping money grubbing lot for demanding compensation for all your time and skills" is not acceptable.

 

[skullcap]

So has anyone told you that you are "ungrateful, undeserving, grasping money grubbing"?

If they did, under which rock did you find/leave them.

.

 

[Randy_G]

I have a question. Who deals with fraud and other criminal activities in this country ?? Is it:
a) Transport Canada
b) HAC
c) HEPAC
d) RCMP

If someone has evidence that fraud is being commited, then shouldn't that person contact the appropriate police unit and provide them such evidence ?? Transport's mandate does not include prosecution for fraudulent activities. That falls under the RCMP's jurisdiction. They will accept annonymous tips about fraudulent activities, so you need not worry about your identity being revealed. If you feel that something fraudulent is occuring, collect as much evidence that you can, and contact the the RCMP fraud squad. I will assure you that they will take all allegations of fraud very seriously. When I worked in a small business, we had someone bounce 2 cheques (they knew they had no money to cover the cheques, so they defrauded us), and the fraud squad went after that person. They have the expertice to investigate any claims of fraud, and determine if a crime has been commited.


HAC is a lobby group to help operators to make money, and I would doubt very much that they would do anything to hurt one of their members.

Cheers

 

[bubbleboy]

Skullcap: I had another read of your post in which you mention that customers need to wake up and smell the coffee. Again, how that relates to the seismic industry is not in my world of ops. I will say that in other areas, the bargain basement rates have been beneficial to certain lesser sophisticated customers. Not all customers have the same appreciation for the helicopter and it's limitations. These customers who due to finances could have never dreamed to use helicopters, are now in the driver seat! These are the same people that want the corners cut, and have no appreciation for the costs associated with operating them. The customer is always right of course, unless he's trying to kill me!

For me, as elitist as it sounds, these "customers" need to have the cost of the helicopter put out of reach. I've got a good friend who runs his own heating business. Whenever he goes into a wealthy neighborhood he increases his rates 10 to 15%. Criminal isn't it? I'm glad I don't live in one of those neighborhoods. But it's expected of him because these people equate higher prices with quality. This industry needs the confidence to adopt that kind of mentality. We are not selling furnaces here. Most owners have invested alot of money and time. I have done the same. We don't need hillbilly customers driving the industry in the toilet. If they want to play in helicopters they gotta pay!!

Basically what I'm saying is that yes, customers do need to wake up and smell the coffee, but not necessarily for their benefit.

Speaking of coffee - no more for me. :blink:

 

[T-rex]

Some advice....

Before signing on the dotted line, READ your contract! The Ops manual and payscale says it all!!!

If you don't like it leave! There are good and bad operations out there, Pilot and Engineer beware!

 

[bubbleboy]

T-Rex: Pretty much sums up the current attitude. Yeh, we got a slow leak on the front tire, but we'll just run 'er till she's flat. Nothing's going to change is it?

The operator stinks, I'll just move on and let the next guy deal with it. Extra 100 lbs in the basket? No problem I can lift that. Less than half mile in fog? No problem, do it all the time. Nope, nothing wrong here.

MEMEMEMEMEME!!

O.K. last coffee I swear.