B212 Vs. B205-a1

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Well, there I was working on my post and I inadvertently hit a mystery key... the post was gone but when I went outside to find my computer it had survived by being caught in a hedge!

So, from memory:

This post went from being a request for information to being a debate between the proponents of either the 205 or the 212 (with a few exceptions). Being a lover of debate, I think this is great, provided the original query is answered to the best of everyone's ability.

The original query from Leggo was a direct question regarding the pluses and minuses of one or the other with regard to external load work. It was, however, sort of a two part question because he also stated that they wanted something that would haul more than the AS 350, that they were using at the present time. In a later post he clarified what they were doing by stating that they used a Twinstar for "bush work" and an AS 350 B for EMS. So, to the question of what would be a suitable helicopter to replace what they were already using, I think a 204 or, as Blackmac said, a 407, would do just fine. Of course we are lacking all of the details that would help us decide what the "right" helicopter would be... and we'd never reach a complete consensus anyway.

Now, I'd like to comment on the 205 Vs. 212 debate:

As Hogie said earlier, "we need to compare apples with apples" (at least I think he said something like that). So, as BDVI has already listed the various makes and models of 205's and 212's (and something I've never heard that you could actually buy... the 210), I'll refrain from listing the attributes of each and limit myself to something that I don't think anyone has discussed... the actual application of engine power to mainrotor transmission:

A few points that I hope everyone knows:

The 205 has a transmission rating of 1250 HP. This means that when the torque gauge says "54 PSI" (the 204/205 torquemeters use PSI rather than percentage of allowable power), the engine is producing 1250 HP.

The 212 has a transmission rating of 1290 HP. When the torqemeter in the "old steam chicken" (my hat is off, once again to Hogie) is at 100 %, the engines are producing a combined HP of 1290.

So, the differences between the types:

The 205-A1 has a Lycoming T-53-13 engine. This engine produces somewhere around 1400 HP (I'm not sure of the exact figure so please cut me some slack you detail freaks out there). The transmission in a 205 is rated for 1250 HP. This leaves 150 HP as the "de-rating" of the engine.

The 205-A1 ++, (which is a made up name by people who are trying to differentiate between the various configurations of blades and engines) has a Lycoming T-53-17 engine. This engine produces quite a bit more horsepower than the -13 (once again I can't remember what the numbers are), but the extra ia applied to the de-rating so it only affects hot and high performance.

The 212 has two engines that produce a combined total of 1800 HP (slightly more with the 3B's but this, once again is applied to de-rating). Since the transmission rating is 1290, this allows a margin of 510 HP for the de-rating of the engine. This makes the 212 a really good "hot and high" performer.

Ok, so we've talked transmissions and engines, now let's talk aircraft weight:

The average 205 weighs around 5700 lbs.

The average 212 weighs around 6500 lbs.

Clearly, if the engine of the respective aircraft is making full power then the lighter aircraft will outperform the heavier aircraft (40 HP to the transmission being insignificant when contrasted with the differnce in weight of the machine).

When the density altitude increases the 205 with the -13 engine falls off quite rapidly. The "Straight 205" is a geat helicopter unless it's asked to do something it's not equipped to handle.

The 205 with the -17 engine makes full transmission horsepower to obscene altitudes and temperatures. I personally have made 212's look silly at 10,000 feet. Of course every machine is different and every pilot and every engineer is different... so there's no "one formula for everyone".

I have also worked a 212 beside a guy in a 205 A-1 ++ and never once felt penis envy.

So, I hope I have clarified rather than muddied the issues, playful though they are.
I have empirical evidence that supports my views and some good solid numbers that back me up... regardless of what Hogie says... and I respect what he says... and it's not 'cause he's so huge!!!!

HV

 

[cap]

HBG ----------I've run the -17 and am aware of what you speak. I was considering all the factors though.. The man may or may not be able to find a 205 with a -17 . Last price I heard quoted for the conversion was approximately $1M. Parts for 205's have to be watched much closer than the 212 also. I say that because there now exists approximately 400 more 205's than Bell ever produced at the factory. We won't even get into the 212 with single hydraulics the MOT chased around for years trying to have a good look at.

Again, airframe time is increasingly starting to be a factor with the 205's. That was one of the driving forces behind the COMPLETE -17 conversion in the first place, which Rocky Mountain Helicopters had in their stable many years ago. That conversion had the 212 nose, blades, transmissiom plus the -17. I saw then what that a/c could do to 8 drums of fuel at 8000' compared to a 214 and of course there was still a difference, but the margin had been reduced by quite a bit. I don't have to be sold on the -17 performance and the absolute nicest thing to me was, once started, I might as well have thrown the EGT guage out the window. With the 205 -13 my eyes were always feasting on the EGT and N1 guages on a hot day and "Q-ing out" was a dream only, but the -17 changed all that. Slinging speed is an irrelevant thing to me because it is 80-90kts for me maximum and I don't care what I'm flying or what the power reserve is. The 407 is also a good aircraft for this, but I believe the first point made was the desire to move more bodies at once. 407 Driver can also relate factual stories about where that problem was negated also.......just by speed alone.

So my attention was focused on all ALL the factors that I think one has to include. If we are just talking performance only then the "deck gets re-shuffled" quickly. I know of one company that had the ideal situation as far as I'm concerned.........they carried both the -17 and the -13 for the same aircraft and that allowed them to bid on a whole wider range of contracts. Ideal for me because I didn't have to foot the operating or conversion costs and all this comes down to money, sooner or later damnit.

I mentioned the airframe age as a factor only because it is a consideration and more and more 205's are now very elderly "ladies". I have nothing against age at all and in fact go to bed each night with a grandmother, but her "airframe" doesn't have embarrassing stories to tell about having exceeded it's limits over the last 30+ years either.

 

[HBG]

Bell Vs a Bell, this is a new one. Your right Big Duke, I don't have the experience you do on the Steam Chicken, but I don't rely upon my own experiences only, I usually look towards the more experienced fellow aviators like Cap, VR, and your very own VX to make my final conclusions, just to name a few. Each machine has its own merrits, there is know doubt, but talking to and working with other pilots and customers, yes your drill company too, the concensis has been that the 205 ++ is a better performer than a 212, Hot and High. Its just that some customers require two engines to fly for them because some body along the way told them its Ok to fly recording crew with an single engine A-star but you have to have 2 engines to fly drills. Doesn't make sense to me. Now I don't know who's 205 it is that you are working along side to make this comparison but I am sure they don't have the vast long line in tow experience that you have. 😛 And yes the second stove would be nice but we all know that with a load on whether it be a drill or a log or what ever, you must be in a pretty good flight configuration for it not take you to the ground where the 205 will be, you may just extend a bit. That said, I look forward to the day when I can make all the VS comparisons first hand to pass on down the line for when this same discussion is going on ten years from now. Fly safe in Utah, I will be in Two Lakes drilling 6000 holes for the next couple of months , PTI camp at 105 on the Two lakes road, can't wait!! :down:

All the Best.
HBG

 

[VERTICAL X]

Hey HBG..... Leave me out of this conversation, don't get me started!!!!!!!!! I'm a STEAM CHICKEN driver now and don't want to be dragged into something that everybody already knows the truth about. HA HA HA

Take care buddy

VX

 

[Big Duke 6]

HBG,

Boyyy, just when my knuckles were starting to heal 😉 . Well we could go on and on about this topic. They are both excellent machines, and as long as it is doing what your marketing guy told the client it would, well I guess your in good shape. But we are all entitled to our opinions. Have fun up in Two Lakes .

P.S ANYTIME, ANYWHERE, PRINCESS 😛 even with a 212 & longline in tow. And yes I've heard all about your drilling experience from the Bertram boys, there AIRWRECK 😀 . Let me now when you want to move upto the majors. Things must be getting lonely @ the farm team .

JMHP.
Cheers BDVI

 

[HBG]

VX, you disapoint me, they must be making you soft over there, well I here you are busy my friend so that is always good, especially when you have as many mouths to feed that you do now. Hey, I still have your new visor, I will be home in a couple of weeks and I will send it off to you.

Big Duke, I can't but smile while I right this. 😀 I thought I would try and combine drills and logging, one has to be inovative in this industry to make a go of it any more, oh well one can try I guess. Working for the farm team is great, no big expectations, no pressure. If I stepped up to the big league you would have to teach me your start technique on the 212, how does it go, plugs in, then hit starter, if no light off, try try again. 😛 I look forward to beers together, I will give you a ring on my time off and we can sit down over a bottle and hash this out the old fashion way.

Take care, HBG

 

[VERTICAL X]

OUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



VX

 

[Big Duke 6]

😱 MAYDAY,MAYDAY,I'am taken hits CHARLIE's everywhere. Ouchchhhhhhhhh! I'll give ya that one HBG although, I did show determination. Who knew the kindling was still in. I guess one has to remember not to get ahead of himself.

An old timer once told me there is only two types of pilots " those that have, and those that are about to" screw-up. I've learned that lesson the hard way. I wish you better luck.

Your typical Drill Pilot's first day in the 212.

 

[sharkbait]

Big Duke 6:
Thanks for the cartoon.
I am busy converting a guy from a VFR equiped 212 to an EFIS 76.
He is suffering TV screen fatigue big time and will surely get a good laugh out of it.
So many numbers, so many buttons, so many new procedures. :wacko:
Still we are having fun! He actually seems enthusiastic - gotta give him credit - he hasn't resigned yet.
Thanks again for my chuckle of the day.
Cheers to you.
Sharkbait 😀

PS Are there Big Dukes one through 5 ?

 

[leggo]

Once again, gentlemen, thanks for the input of your experience. Don't worry about it turning into an argument about which ship is the better, since you all argued with data, I learned!

Blackmac, the vast majority off our loads can indeed be broken up (fuel), the object of the exercise is indeed to find the most cost-efficient solution. I've been gathering data on an array of aircraft, but since Bell no longer build 212s or 205s, their spec sheets aren't on the Bell website, and I can't ask someone for a quick look through their POH either (we're the only helicopter operator in country). So my solution has been to pick your brains and experience. If anyone could point me to a website or similar which has some performance graphs for these a/c (HOGE and fuel burn in particular) I'd be on easy street!

The boss is working on the financial side of the equation, my input is what performance he can expect from each option. I suspect that if we choose to concentrate on our core earning activity, the best choice may turn out to be a Lama, old, slow and thirsty though she may be, or an AS350B2.

 

[Big Duke 6]

Sharkbait I'm glad somone got something poistive out of our ranting <_< , and no there are no 1-5 dukes it was a nickname given to me while heli-skiing several years ago, and its in reference to the movie "apocolipse now" 😀 .

 

[4961]

Your typical Drill Pilot's first day in the 212.

Hey who you lookin at?

 

[DGP]

Not sure how the 407 got into this argument but here goes...if you want to sling with the 407 she will have no problem lifting 2600lbs at temps below 25 C....above this you will have to cut the weights back ....the average weight empty is around 2900-3000 lbs...driver of 200 lbs...this leaves room for 400 lbs of motion lotion to play with...straight up...up and away on a long line and I don't know about 140 kts but she will go fast....oh baby....she goes...fast!!!! ....for more accurate #s get CTD in on this one. PS max gross external is 6000 lbs.Internal you can fill all the seats with 200 lbs passengers,put 850 lbs of go juice on and go straight up and away....this aint just a L with 4 blades folks.... 😀 internal gross is 5250

 

[VERTICAL REF]

HBG farm team my ass!!! Look at the bright side, at least you don't work for Alpine Jr.


Cap a 212 and a 205 both burn 600 to 650 lbs of fuel! No difference.


A dash 17 engine produces 1550 to 1800 shp depending on how the engine has been nozzled at engine overhaul to balance the hot and cold end. It is a trade off between N1 and EGT/MGT. Some have come off the test cell in excess of 2200shp.

A 205 -13 with 205 p/n blades will out work a 212 at low altitudes / low temps. (so can a 204!)


A 212 with 3's, 3B's or the HP will not out lift a 205 -17 at high altitudes, out of ground effect on a longline ever! The performance section of the flight manuals states it in black and white...

In ground effect, with an internal load as per the WAT chart (section one, limitations the 212 can legally carry more than a 205A or A-1. Structural considerations - therefore the reason they are used for sking. More load legally internally than a 205. Yet the 205 can go in and longline 4000 lbs right beside the skiers all with in limits.

(the 205B has the same internal as the 212 therefore can go sking with full passangers and full fuel - the 212 "not")

Leggo, around the fsj area all you would need is a 205 -13.

Good luck finding one, the last 205 I heard of sold for 1.9 usd. You can get a steam chicken for 1.3 to 1.4 usd. Goes to show you what airframe is in higher demand.

Twin engines don't mean crap when you have more than 74.3 % torque dialed in on the triple tach - Just ask Wade Ross!

As the Frontier boys used to say...

When you are bucketing with a 205 and the engine quits, you hear BANG, SPLOOSH...

and when your bucketing with a 212 and one engine quits you hear BANG, WHUA, WHUA, SPLOOSH...

The 212 is a highly overated twin. Thats why there is no IFR routes in Canada for a 212. To maintain OEI it would only be able to carry 3 to 4 people.

Guys fly 212's cause they can't hit the spot during autorotations! 😛


I love flying the 212. I just hope to God when I'm on a fire a 205 does not pull up beside me...and as Vibrator and Hoagie said please don't let it be a 205B cause I'll piss my pants...! 😉

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Wow VR! I have not seen you so worked up since you were rolling around on the dance floor in Ft. Nellie (how many were there again?).I knew somebody would have all the figures and I would have laid money down that you'd be a likely candidate. I just need to clarify one little item: The 205B has the same external as the 212, not internal. Of course they're the same for the 212 (11,200 for both) but you're limited to 10,500 inside the B.

HV