What? No ruckus about Continental joining the use it or lose it gang?

[TomBascom]

----------------
On 9/4/2002 9:22:11 PM

The likelihood is that all the U.S. majors will follow suit.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see won't we?

I've got an idea -- let's tell the customers what to think!

 

[TomBascom]

Dream on.

 

[geo1004]

and USfliBoy (stewart), your friend Ben Baldanza has already hinted that US might be stepping back from its policies regarding elite qualification....


From those of us who do love this airline and would prefere to give it our business (I will qualify for US1 early next month btw) we do want US to offer the same as the other majors. We just can't figure out why US would slam the door in our faces at the same time it declares BK ???

 

[RealityCheck]

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On 9/4/2002 8:34:43 PM

Im really surprised other than the couple on here and the intial shock at the beginning that all the airlines are following in general, that things are settling down a bit. Have very few complaints when i talk to us1 guys. Sounds like seigal based on his latest update to employess that hes standing firm by his decision.
----------------

Same here,,talked to dozens and dozens of preferreds over the past week and not a single one mentioned or brought it up..they couldn't have been more pleasant..guess the boards have as many renegade crusader union folks(present comp. excluded) [] ..as they do fliers.

 

[RealityCheck]

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On 9/4/2002 9:02:16 PM

Yes, Reality Checked, you are wrong.

US Airways will only allow you to earn elite status using refundable full fares. According to the current rules, after 1/1/03 the ONLY way to earn Silver Preferred is to fly 25,000 miles on full fares OR fly 30 segments on full fares.

This is false..it specifically states or implies Non ref H K V are excluded from status qualify, BUT, all Y B and all M and refndble H K and V will still earn status.That still covers alot of fares.



AA recognizes that their are several types of loyal, frequent fliers. They reward them all and perhaps, in their minds, that is why they are the largest airline in the world. You can fly 25,000 miles on the cheapest paid fares you can find and earn their Gold AAdvantage level. If you happen to fly a combination of full and discount fares, you will earn this status a bit faster because (as you have listed in your example above) AA allows Q Points to get you to Gold AAdvantage as well. And if you happen to fly ONLY on full FC fare, you will get there even faster, perhaps after flying as little as 17,000 miles on domestic first class tickets alone.

In the end there is NO comparison between the rules US has set and the rules currently in place with ALL the other majors.


The point system and the nbr of miles are the exact same number are they not?EX:You fly on a Y/B fare on AA and you roughly earn 3000 miles/ptscoast to coast,,same with U Y and B..if you fly F, you earn 4500 miles/pts..1.5.ratio..same with U..you fly AA in M or H rfndble fares or what they call discount and you earn only 1500, based on the ".5 ratio" in their chart..U you earn the whole 3000 on these rfndble H and M's not to mention the non ref M's.In your example above, yes, the person flew 17000 f class miles but at 1.5 accrual thats 25,000 = elite. Same for U..In these same examples would you not earn the same nbr of qualifying SEGMENTS on each carrier toward 25/50/100??

Where is my miscalculation here? With the counting of certain U fares as greater credit than AA,such as all M and rfndble H and K as opposed to 1/2 credit on AA(per their chart), I still see very little difference in how fast you attain status in either program.
As for the folks who cannot book responsibly in the "cruise" example above, there comes a point where the customer, ACTUALLY WHERE AN ADULT HUMAN BEING, has to take responsibilty for their own actions.I do, in my day to day, I expect others to as well. That is the point I am making. Please Dont call me and say you made a error on the internet, I didnt push the buttons.Thats the most popular blunder I hear every day. And no one makes waivers for that. The problem with spoiled America is no one wants to take ownership for their own blunders,,case in point, smokers lawsuits, and the latest craze, fast food obesity lawsuits.

 

[planeluvr]

----------------
On 9/4/2002 9:23:31 PM

----------------
On 9/4/2002 9:02:16 PM

Yes, Reality Checked, you are wrong.


This is false..it specifically states or implies Non ref H K V are excluded from status qualify, BUT, all Y B and all M and refndble H K and V will still earn status.That still covers alot of fares.


But AA allows all discount fares (except consolidator) to earn 100% status miles not just Y, B, & M. That covers alot more fares.


The point system and the nbr of miles are the exact same number are they not?EX:You fly on a Y/B fare on AA and you roughly earn 3000 coast to coast,,same with U Y and B..if you fly F, you earn 4500..1.5.ratio..same with U..you fly AA in M or H rfndble fares or what they call discount and you earn only 1500, based on the ".5 ratio" in their chart..U you earn the whole 3000 on these rfndble H and M's not to mention the non ref M's.In your example above yes the person flew 17000 f class miles but at 1.5 accrual thats 25,000 = elite. Same for U..In these same examples would you not earn the same nbr of qualifying SEGMENTS on each carrier toward 25/50/100??

Where is my miscalculation here?

Check this link which will clear up your misunderstanding:


http://members.shaw.ca/fewmiles/AA/index2.html

 

[ClueByFour]

----------------
On 9/4/2002 9:22:11 PM

I'm surprised that the move to match the US policy of allowing only unrestricted fares to qualify for Elite status hasn't caught on yet. This is arguably the best idea they've had so far, even though it's not popular.

Why?

Well, ALL U.S. majors would benefit from only giving their best perks to their highest-revenue customers. The last thing they need is a group of (borrowing from Tango-Bravo, here) high-cost, low-yield primadonnas with Elite cards.

Make no mistake, the airlines invest quite a bit of money in giving extra perks to their Elite members, but it's hard to make that money back when they're earning those miles on a bunch of $99.00 internet fares.

If every U.S. major were to make their Elite members earn their status on higher yield fares only, the airlines could concentrate on giving these extra perks to the members who really have earned them through their high dollar travel with the airlines.

Also, there would be no competitive disadvantage to everyone matching, since Southwest, jetBlue, and the other discount carriers do not have different Elite tiers to their programs.
----------------

If the US majors sanify their fare structure, it might work. If not, you will see the midlevel folks (both in terms of amount flown and amount spent/mile) will _RUN_ to the low fare/frills carriers. In droves.

Something else to consider--what makes you think the other majors will match it? Hell, AA did the lose-it/standby routine and specifically went out of their way not to match the teir status thing.

That, and I'm curious as to where everyone thinks all of these pay-full-fare-without-batting-an-eyelash folks are? Anymore, on a small sampling of US routes that I normally fly, I could pick up an A4COACH fare for a similar price to full-Y. At that point, a loyalty program is lost on me because I'm already sitting upfront, preboarding, using the preferred checkin and security lines. There is no need to incent or reward this group's loyalty.

Personally, I'm going to nick US to the tune of somewhere between 10-20k in lost business in the next 12 months if this thing does not go thru. Multiply that by a couple of thousand, and now you've lost real money. Or, if UA does not play ball, I'll simply fly the UA flight numbers on US metal (won't that be a hoot?)

OTOH, nonrev travel in F ought to be easier to come by, until the leinholders show up to run everything out to the desert...

 

[N305AS]

By the way, you can add Northwest to the use-it-or-lose-it gang. Since DL is intent on partnering with NW and CO, look for them to match sometime this week or next.

 

[RealityCheck]

Check this link which will clear up your misunderstanding:


http://members.shaw.ca/fewmiles/AA/index2.html
----------------

Very informative site, but I dont think it is up to date and may have errors since its not direct from the AA site..e.g it still lists 200 segs as their top level requirement instead of 100(unless 200 is a typo)..When I go to AA.com the only page I see , chking every last link I think is applicable for how to qualify for elite, is the one I copyd way up above and I will post again here>>
To qualify for AAdvantage Gold membership, you must earn 25,000 qualifying points or fly at least 25,000 qualifying miles or 30 qualifying segments during the calendar year (January 1 through December 31).


To qualify for AAdvantage Platinum membership, you must earn 50,000 qualifying points or fly 50,000 qualifying miles or 60 qualifying segments during the calendar year (January 1 through December 31).


To qualify for AAdvantage Executive Platinum membership, you must earn 100,000 qualifying points or 100,000 qualifying miles during the calendar year (January 1 through December 31). The number of AAdvantage points you earn is based on the actual miles flown on elite qualifying flights. Here's how it works:
Purchased Fares Points Earned Per Mile Flown
First Class 1.50
Business Class 1.25
Full-fare Economy Class* 1.00
Discount Economy Class** .50
* Includes fares booked in Y or B on American Airlines and American Eagle (and equivalent booking codes on participating carriers). Ticket must reflect an American Airlines coded flight number.
** Excludes consolidator fares.

Based on this page, I of course interpret this as total miles earned will likely always exceed total miles or points eligible to qualify for elite,but qualifying points=qualifying miles..they're the same not different philosophies...So a non ref fare on AA in whataver 1 or 2 classes they use will accrue a .5 ratio of miles or pts..and YES U will earn none, EXCEPTION>>unless its a B or M non ref, than it will earn full credit on U because B and M were excluded from the changes.
So YES,I see an opportunity to earn some miles quicker on AA, but also some quicker on U( i.e.the B and M non ref as well as the H, M, Y, and B, rfdnbles get fullcredit vs AA not so in all these codes)...keeping in mind that AA's highly and medium(non Y and B) discounted fares only accrue 1/2 ratio,as per chart above.

I am done analyzing this one.. [:sun:] right or wrong I dont care anymore..if the AA site is leaving info out, than I cant defend my interpretation of their rules because I only have whats readable off their site.


My post started with the non ref rules changing on Co and somehow drifted off into freq flyer land?!?!?!!?!?!?

 

[geo1004]

Reality Check, again you're misinformed:

You say: "The point system and the nbr of miles are the exact same number are they not? EX: You fly on a Y/B fare on AA and you roughly earn 3000 miles/pts coast to coast,,same with U Y and B..if you fly F, you earn 4500 miles/pts..1.5.ratio..same with U..you fly AA in M or H rfndble fares or what they call discount and you earn only 1500, based on the ".5 ratio" in their chart..


That is an incorrect interpretaion of the AA program.


Example: Three people all climb on the same AA flight from LAX to IAD. The flight is (for example purposes) 2,500 miles of flight. One passenger is on a discount fare, one passenger is on a H refundable and the third passenger is on a full fare first class fare. They will all earn differing numbers of Q POINTS but they will ALL earn the same 2,500 miles that WILL count for elite status.

If those three passengers keep flying the 2,500 miles back and forth between LAX and IAD, they guy on the full First Class fare will earn AAGold faster than the others (because he'll earn Gold with the 1.5 Q Point multilpier) but once they have all flown that 10th flight, EVERY ONE OF THEM will be Gold. It just takes the discount flier the full 25k flight miles to get there.

Apply the US rules to the scenario above and the guy flying the 10 flights on the dicount fares will have earned ZERO segments and ZERO miles that count for Preferred.

 

[RealityCheck]

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On 9/4/2002 11:13:58 PM

Geo-

The idea is that those business travelers who are hell-bent on earning Elite status will be willing to pay higher, more unrestricted fares. Those who are willing to only pay the bare-bones fares will still have the same choice; pay the low rate with a full-service major or pay the low rate with a no-frills discount carrier. The only difference is that they won't be earning Elite status.

The incentive of earning mileage is still there, as they can redeem those miles towards use on the full-service major's network; a benefit not applicable to those who rack up their mileage on the no-frills discount carriers. And then the majors don't have to worry about the extra expense of providing the Elite-level benefits to those customers only willing to pay the rock-bottom rates.

Put another way, if both the major and the no-frills guy offer the same rate, the major will STILL earn the business, as they provide amenities the no-frills guy doesn't for the same rate.


----------------

When you think about it, it will be difficult anyway for elites to find cheap fares elsewhere,,Why??..its hard enough many many times just to find cheap fares for the leisure person,on any airline, often having to offer alternate days if not alternate hours of flexibility to get the cheaper fare..The biz traveler doesnt have that much flexibility and will be forced, if traffic increases even more due to the "defectors", to pay more anyways.
So unless AA and LUV and other "her majesties" increase the nbr of discount seats offered, all of this is moot.I bet the pricing analysts at all the airlines are watching and waiting 24 hrs a day for someone to make some sort of 1st move in reinventing/adjusting a fare structure more suitable for todays environmment.

 

[geo1004]

N305AS:


Your comments above are flawed. Any airline that thinks there are enough passengers willing to pay full fares all the time to "earn" the privilages and benefits of the elite programs as they stand is kidding themselves. Quite honestly, the product is just not that good. In the USA domestic market there is too much similarity between the actual product offered by the "majors" and the discount carriers. The price variations are simply not warranted. The assumption that the USA business travel market will "adjust" their purchasing habits and simply sucumb to only full fare tickets is, again, flawed.

 

[N305AS]

Geo-

The idea is that those business travelers who are hell-bent on earning Elite status will be willing to pay higher, more unrestricted fares. Those who are willing to only pay the bare-bones fares will still have the same choice; pay the low rate with a full-service major or pay the low rate with a no-frills discount carrier. The only difference is that they won't be earning Elite status.

The incentive of earning mileage is still there, as they can redeem those miles towards use on the full-service major's network; a benefit not applicable to those who rack up their mileage on the no-frills discount carriers. And then the majors don't have to worry about the extra expense of providing the Elite-level benefits to those customers only willing to pay the rock-bottom rates.

Put another way, if both the major and the no-frills guy offer the same rate, the major will STILL earn the business, as they provide amenities the no-frills guy doesn't for the same rate.

 

[ClueByFour]

Put another way, if both the major and the no-frills guy offer the same rate, the major will STILL earn the business, as they provide amenities the no-frills guy doesn't for the same rate.


----------------

Exactly. The problem, of course, is that the majors don't offer the same rates. Especially for the "business traveler."

 

[ClueByFour]

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On 9/4/2002 11:41:17 PM

When you think about it, it will be difficult anyway for elites to find cheap fares elsewhere,,Why??..its hard enough many many times just to find cheap fares for the leisure person,on any airline, often having to offer alternate days if not alternate hours of flexibility to get the cheaper fare..The biz traveler doesnt have that much flexibility and will be forced, if traffic increases even more due to the "defectors", to pay more anyways.
So unless AA and LUV and other "her majesties" increase the nbr of discount seats offered, all of this is moot.I bet the pricing analysts at all the airlines are watching and waiting 24 hrs a day for someone to make some sort of 1st move in reinventing/adjusting a fare structure more suitable for todays environmment.
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I can fly to CLE to LAX on LUV for no more than like $299 (so, $600 RT). Ever (when their $299 at the top takes effect this/next month). usairways.com priced a trip tomorrow and return Sunday CLE-LAX at around $2000. That, by itself, describes the problem for the majors.

Time will tell, but AWA might have finally figured out how to play the "middle ground." Time will tell. Maybe, when/if US gets costs closer to the HPs and LUVs of the world they'll start to do something like this.

The issue is that: without elite status, there is very little tangible difference (save for MRTC on AA) between jetblue/southwest/airtran and ANY of the traditional majors. No food in coach, coach seat, long lines, etc. I'd submit that for most of the flying public, all other things being equal, are not going to buy up from $600 to $2000.