Well..just Gonna Thro It Out

[woztwa]

These last posts make no sense at all. You are assuming that everyone is dealing from the same information base.

First off, I questioned the statement that someone posted that JW "had refused to accept his secretary's resignation." Aside from the sentiment involved, what possible good would it do to refuse someone's resignation if they don't want to work there anymore. They could just leave, period, full stop, end of discussion.

So, if he/she meant their resignation, why are they "returning on 5/17?" It's not like JW could get a court order requiring her/him to return to work. The whole post just didn't make sense.

And, what "harassment by Mr. Ellis?" Do you mean Steve Ellis? What involvement would he have with the resignation of JW's secretary? And who is the "front man?" The implication was that Mr. Ellis was harassing the secretary at the insistence of the "front man." Who? Why? If the front man is JW, why would he have Mr. Ellis harass the secretary to the point of resignation and then refuse the resignation?

Will someone please answer my questions without wandering off into philosophical discussions of the history of unionism and busters thereof?

P.S. Woztwa, bad analogy. At the time of the American Revolution, only about 1/3 of the colonists actually supported separation from Great Britain. The trick was that for the most part that was the third with the local political power and the guns.

yep, and we won---my comment was tongue n' cheek anyway.
Suffice it to say, I was trying to update you all on the latest.
TWANR provided the particulars. John Ward "refused" it . That is fact.
3 BOD members refused "him" and told him that they accept the resignation. provide a temp until the position is filled. The investigation into this comes from the fact that this employee is covered by the UAW and has given official resignation to all 3 BOD members via "tearful" all-call voice mail message to the remaining BOD. Contractual issues being investgated.

 

[twasilverbullet]

Can I apply for the job?

 

[jimntx]

yep, and we won---my comment was tongue n' cheek anyway.
Suffice it to say, I was trying to update you all on the latest.
TWANR provided the particulars. John Ward "refused" it . That is fact.
3 BOD members refused "him" and told him that they accept the resignation. provide a temp until the position is filled. The investigation into this comes from the fact that this employee is covered by the UAW and has given official resignation to all 3 BOD members via "tearful" all-call voice mail message to the remaining BOD. Contractual issues being investgated.

WTMI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this what we have to look forward to? Officers and a BOD that are going to spend their time indulging in playground taunts of
"You eat boogers."
"Well, you eat bigger boogers."
"No, you do."
"No, you do and so does your sister."

Ad Nauseum. h34r: :blink:

As humiliating as it might be, maybe we just need the DOL to come in and clean house. It will be interesting to see what transpires. Do they re-open the count and include the 16 ballots in the final tally? Or, is the whole election invalidated and we start back at square one? (Oh, joy!) You know, there is the possibility that the DOL could rule that overturning the election at this point would cause "undue harm."

What really concerns me is that in his desire to punish the former TWA flight attendants for their existence on this earth, JW has irreparably damaged APFA as a whole. I don't see how this union is going to be whole again in my lifetime. (I'm 59. I don't think I'll live long enough to see a unified flight attendant corps.) They must be ROTFLTAO at Centerport. A divided union is not an equal opponent in negotiations.

At this time, instead of sniping at each other over this mess, we should be in strategy sessions planning our openers for 2006. The former TWA negotiators, who were masters at saving jobs and work rules, should be right in there showing us how to get furloughees back on the line and making the company happy at the same time. But, you know and I know that this is not going to happen. So, 2006 will roll around and the company will be ready with draconian demands and we'll be arguing for return of the Marriott Long Beach as a layover hotel. Or, we'll fight tooth and nail to get the highest pay rate and end up with $.50/hr more (at last Mother can have that operation).

That's right. Just call me Little Mary Sunshine. When things look blackest, I'm always there with the voice of doom.

 

[L1011Ret]

Yes, isn't it amazing how much time and energy is spent on punishing the TWA F/As. Even on BBs where TWA F/As cannot access, they still spend an inordinate amount of time chatting about them, usually negatively. Soon it will be a year since they were furloughed. Now they want to take the vote away by changing the Constitution. Is it any coincidence that taking the vote away coincides with TWAers having an effect on the RPA and election? All these years furloughees can vote, now when some crowd comes along to protest how unfairly they have been treated and how they used their small but effective power to influence something or have their voices heard, APFA is working to take that away too. That they continue to beat up on their junior members, AA and TWA, by taking away furlough pay and now the vote, is despicable. There are somewhere close to 6000 on furlough. My bet is that most of the 6000 are not Ward supporters given how he treated them. I see the negative treatment of the TWAers and furloughed AA F/As as a parallel process to hateful internal struggle at APFA. Until APFA becomes inclusive instead of exclusive, the power struggles will continue. Treating subgroups of the membership differently is a powerful way to create hate. Excluding people is another way. This country has labored long and hard with a lot of controversy along the way to create reasonable equal opportunities for all races, sexes, religions, etc. APFA is the very antithesis of what this country and unionism stand for.

 

[flyingmywingsoff]

and jim (little mary sunshine), please do not forget my personal favorite... ..."things are going to get a lot worse, before they get worse." or maybe it's"things are going to get worse, before they get a lot worse." and thank you, bill, for your incredibly articulate post, as usual! you're the best.

 

[L1011Ret]

Thank you fly...keep your wings on, I hope you need them soon. Are those quotes about gettin worse from Yogi Berra?

Supposedly the Jerry Springer Union - APFA - will meet on Tuesday to attempt to resolve some of the many charges brought against the union.

 

[jimntx]

and jim (little mary sunshine), please do not forget my personal favorite... ..."things are going to get a lot worse, before they get worse." or maybe it's"things are going to get worse, before they get a lot worse." and thank you, bill, for your incredibly articulate post, as usual! you're the best.

Well, I was told, "Cheer up! Things could be worse." So, I cheered up and sure enough, things got worse.

 

[woztwa]

WTMI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this what we have to look forward to? Officers and a BOD that are going to spend their time indulging in playground taunts of
"You eat boogers."
"Well, you eat bigger boogers."
"No, you do."
"No, you do and so does your sister."

Ad Nauseum. h34r: :blink:

As humiliating as it might be, maybe we just need the DOL to come in and clean house. It will be interesting to see what transpires. Do they re-open the count and include the 16 ballots in the final tally? Or, is the whole election invalidated and we start back at square one? (Oh, joy!) You know, there is the possibility that the DOL could rule that overturning the election at this point would cause "undue harm."

What really concerns me is that in his desire to punish the former TWA flight attendants for their existence on this earth, JW has irreparably damaged APFA as a whole. I don't see how this union is going to be whole again in my lifetime. (I'm 59. I don't think I'll live long enough to see a unified flight attendant corps.) They must be ROTFLTAO at Centerport. A divided union is not an equal opponent in negotiations.

At this time, instead of sniping at each other over this mess, we should be in strategy sessions planning our openers for 2006. The former TWA negotiators, who were masters at saving jobs and work rules, should be right in there showing us how to get furloughees back on the line and making the company happy at the same time. But, you know and I know that this is not going to happen. So, 2006 will roll around and the company will be ready with draconian demands and we'll be arguing for return of the Marriott Long Beach as a layover hotel. Or, we'll fight tooth and nail to get the highest pay rate and end up with $.50/hr more (at last Mother can have that operation).

That's right. Just call me Little Mary Sunshine. When things look blackest, I'm always there with the voice of doom.

Jim, that's FUNNY!!! you are right, too. Meeting is scheduled to re-convene next Tuesday. Keep your chin up, I gotta feeling things are gonna get MUCH better... If Wardo decides to drag is feet past the 60 day timeline to count those ballots, that will not sit well with the DOL, (hope I'm saying this properly) It would appear to be Union "racketeering"--
"Deja Vu all over again" : Yogi Berra

 

[L1011Ret]

I'm not sure Yogi has Deja Vu in his vocabulary. Too complicated.

 

[MiAAmi]

Yes, isn't it amazing how much time and energy is spent on punishing the TWA F/As. Even on BBs where TWA F/As cannot access, they still spend an inordinate amount of time chatting about them, usually negatively. Soon it will be a year since they were furloughed. Now they want to take the vote away by changing the Constitution. Is it any coincidence that taking the vote away coincides with TWAers having an effect on the RPA and election? All these years furloughees can vote, now when some crowd comes along to protest how unfairly they have been treated and how they used their small but effective power to influence something or have their voices heard, APFA is working to take that away too. That they continue to beat up on their junior members, AA and TWA, by taking away furlough pay and now the vote, is despicable. There are somewhere close to 6000 on furlough. My bet is that most of the 6000 are not Ward supporters given how he treated them. I see the negative treatment of the TWAers and furloughed AA F/As as a parallel process to hateful internal struggle at APFA. Until APFA becomes inclusive instead of exclusive, the power struggles will continue. Treating subgroups of the membership differently is a powerful way to create hate. Excluding people is another way. This country has labored long and hard with a lot of controversy along the way to create reasonable equal opportunities for all races, sexes, religions, etc. APFA is the very antithesis of what this country and unionism stand for.

APFA is not a seperate entity. We are APFA. Until people actually start realizing that we will be stuck were we are. We should try and start working together and stop throwing our dues out the window to settle lawsuits.

 

[TransWorldFirst]

HA! YOU might be the APFA, MIAAMI, but we are not. All we wanted from the beginning was fairness and inclusion. Instead, we were met with hatred, exclusion and vitriol from the top on down through the ranks. Now, as APFA self destructs like an old "Mission Impossible" tape, we are sitting back and watching. And I, for one, coudn't think of a better group of people. APFA sowed the seeds of hate and discontent and now they are reaping their harvest.

TransWorldFirst

(not to be confused with Trans World ONE)

 

[flyingmywingsoff]

bill, i think i remember the quote (whichever way is correct) as being from gilda radner. and it certainly was true for her.

 

[L1011Ret]

Yes, that probably was a Gilda...As for MiAAmi's idea about working together and stopping throwing money away on lawsuits, as long as APFA insists on treating some subgroups badly, warfare will continue. TWAers are not on the property and yet the warfare against them continues. The TWA issue is only one of many that APFA has grossly mishandled. The membership will be substantially divided as long as the powers that be within APFA are so divided. The leadership of APFA is polarizing the membership not the other way around. As the Greeks say, "A fish rots from the head." The leadership has had numerous opportunities to throw bones at disaffected parts of the membership to draw them in. Instead the leadership choses to treat them with disdain and exclusion. No politician with any sense would ever follow the course of APFA or they would never get elected.

It seems nAAtives are confused about why TWAers rallied behind THB. To get seniority? No, THB cannot give TWAers seniority even if she wanted to. To get rid of JW! It is that simple. The current crises (multiple) within APFA are indicators of severe dysfunction, not just conflicts about mission and policy as regularly occur in union politics. To me APFA appears near terminal. Even if members of the BOD and EC got together with hugs and kisses on Tuesday, there is so much water under the bridge that any short term repairs are unlikely to lead to long term behavioral changes.

 

[Flyboy4u]

I could't agree with you more L1011. However, this is not just a TWA issue. THere are many of us Naatives also directly affected by the actions of those in leadership postions at the APFA. To me, a more correct statement would be a seniority issue with a divided membership by those junior, and those senior. Exactly where that dividing line begins, and ends doesnt seem to be known. It's not just a TWA issue anymore, and I wish we could all get away from using that statement.

The real problem begins when personal biases get in the way of making sound judgement decisions for the group as a whole. That is clearly what has happened and continues to happen. I still say that New representation for the F/A's needs to happen, and not with the APFA...I also agree with those on this board who say a new union may not be any better. I don't have the answer to the problems except the only way to fix this broken union is to throw it away. If there is any chance of getting new representation though, now would be the time to do it. Things should have started getting better by now, but the reality is they continue to get worse.

 

[AAStew]

The truly sad part is that f/a's on the line don't have a clue what is going on. I was at EPT's Thursday and mentioned what happened at the meeting, 98% had no idea what I was talking about.
As for targeting TWA f/a's, the truth is we never really talked about it. Most of us thought they would of been given SOME seniority. Most were astounded they weren't. Of course, no one is going to complain about it, because it did not affect them adversely. I am guilty of that also. I really thought TWA'rs should of received some seniority, but I wasn't going to complain about what happened.
I know it sounds horrible but it is reality, and I am sorry. The few of you I did get to know I have to admit I really liked.
Back to the APFA mess, has anyone noticed nothing was mentioned on the hotline? That is the way they work, just hide it under the table as best you can, and if something comes out well just work your damage control later.
I personally have no use for the organization called the APFA. Every time I have needed their help, I get vague and useless replies and am left to my own wits. But unless someone truly organizes a drive to replace them, we are stuck with this exclusive rather than inclusive organization that calls itsef a union.