Unfortunately DCAflyer is correct. The judge is given great discretion over the outcome of the proceedings. Unless there is a GROSS error, the judge's decision WILL stand. The process now is about the creditors, make no mistake about it. To assume you can appeal any decision the judge comes up with is pure folly. The process of rebuilding creditor value will proceed, and one or two unions will NOT hold it up. We are all small fish swimming in a shark tank...
Vote with thought...not emotions!!
- Thread starter AOG-N-IT
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EX-A320FO
If the judge is for the creditors why would he try to gut the mechanics contract. You think the mechanics are going out quietly? They have some power as well, and it would be ugly for all. I have a friend who has been laid off for past two years, he is waiting for his finger prints and ID for past 5 weeks. He is being treated has a new-hire so you see were I am going with this. It would take a long time to replace us, and this company would not survive. Farming out good luck I came from there, this company would be out of busineess if you had to bank on there help. Our company cannot go without one day of revenue so good luck and I hope the judge takes all accounts in mine or eveybody will be sorry. You think Sept. 10 when the company and judge has there way with our contract the mechanic's will be standing at attention ready to help this company? pitguy said-it-best all we want is a fair deal, our part works out to around 36%, TO MUCH. I hope for everbody if the T/A for the IAM is voted down they are reasonable with new T/A or it will be ugly.
If the judge is for the creditors why would he try to gut the mechanics contract. You think the mechanics are going out quietly? They have some power as well, and it would be ugly for all. I have a friend who has been laid off for past two years, he is waiting for his finger prints and ID for past 5 weeks. He is being treated has a new-hire so you see were I am going with this. It would take a long time to replace us, and this company would not survive. Farming out good luck I came from there, this company would be out of busineess if you had to bank on there help. Our company cannot go without one day of revenue so good luck and I hope the judge takes all accounts in mine or eveybody will be sorry. You think Sept. 10 when the company and judge has there way with our contract the mechanic's will be standing at attention ready to help this company? pitguy said-it-best all we want is a fair deal, our part works out to around 36%, TO MUCH. I hope for everbody if the T/A for the IAM is voted down they are reasonable with new T/A or it will be ugly.
Pitguy...
I hate to tell you, but you will be unsuccessful on appeal. The bankruptcy judges are given very wide-ranging discretion. This is not a jury litigation trial. This is not a game. If the judge throws out your contract, you guys are sunk. Game... set... match! You can be as flip as you want, but it won't get you anywhere but the unemployment line. Dave is not kidding here, guys. This is your chance to save your jobs.
I hate to tell you, but you will be unsuccessful on appeal. The bankruptcy judges are given very wide-ranging discretion. This is not a jury litigation trial. This is not a game. If the judge throws out your contract, you guys are sunk. Game... set... match! You can be as flip as you want, but it won't get you anywhere but the unemployment line. Dave is not kidding here, guys. This is your chance to save your jobs.
pitguy
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I think by now we all understand the risks. I also understand how to negotiate. I also understand FAIR. I want a FAIR contract. I can not run away any longer. Other labor groups negotiated and agreed on fair contracts. I seek similar articles in mine. Now is that not resonable?
insp89...
I was not predicting the future. Where in my post did it look like I was? Your sarcasm is not necessary. I was merely stating that the Judge has wide discretion in these types of matters and the chances of any party, especially an employee group, winning an appeal is very very slim. You stand a much better chance of winning before the bankruptcy judge rather than an appellate board, and your chances before the bankruptcy judge aren't great. Personally, at this point, I don't care if any other labor group ratifies because you will only be sinking yourselves. We are in reorganization and we will emerge. Either all labor groups will be intact or not. The ones who do are intact at the end of the day most likely will be the ones who ratified their TA's. You can believe that or not. But if you think that the bankruptcy judge is going to come along like Mighty Mouse to save the day for CWA or IAM, I believe you will be sadly mistaken.
I was not predicting the future. Where in my post did it look like I was? Your sarcasm is not necessary. I was merely stating that the Judge has wide discretion in these types of matters and the chances of any party, especially an employee group, winning an appeal is very very slim. You stand a much better chance of winning before the bankruptcy judge rather than an appellate board, and your chances before the bankruptcy judge aren't great. Personally, at this point, I don't care if any other labor group ratifies because you will only be sinking yourselves. We are in reorganization and we will emerge. Either all labor groups will be intact or not. The ones who do are intact at the end of the day most likely will be the ones who ratified their TA's. You can believe that or not. But if you think that the bankruptcy judge is going to come along like Mighty Mouse to save the day for CWA or IAM, I believe you will be sadly mistaken.
pitguy
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It is scarry to think these pilots think we do not remember 10 years ago. October 1992. It was scarry on the picket line then too. "Other" labor groups did not support us then either. Please try to understand that most of us love this company, but we have to have a deal that treats us fairly.
Sidestick, You wrote , that I sound like the victim of a No vote. Well let me say this. I will be affected..as will thousands of others. I will not be a "Victim". I have planned for this possibility of a complete failure of things. I for one , am not "leveraged to the gills"..and I have other things that I could readily be doing for money. The issue is, Is this change really what I want to be doing? The awnser is frankly no!!. I happen to love this industry...and inspite of the numerous issues..I love USAirways. I have been treated in a pretty fair and equitable manner...not Nervana by any stretch of the imagination..but in an acceptable manner. Aviation for me..started like it did for most , as a childhood dream and hobby. My father before me , was an IAM member at McDonnell Douglas. He was thankfully retired from there , prior to the Boeing takeover. Dad had always told me..That when in doubt..lean toward the unions side between the issues. However , he also said to never allow others to think for you. I'm not letting Siegel or the IAM think for me..My thoughts are with my loyalties to my desires..and what really makes me happy. Thankfully if it all ended tomorrow? , I will not have dependents suffering from my actions or yours. I will also not be in a position to have to scramble to the next victimizing circumstance. I have read numerous accounts in the national press about the job market. By most accounts 60 to 70% of the workforce that has been displaced since the start of the current economic downturn and Post Sept. 11th fallout, have returned to work in some capacity. The figures are..That of that perecentage..the return was to 64% of thier previous income. This does not even delve into the lack of job satisfaction in thier current positions. These are all valid issues. Somehow an average drop of 36% in money , at a job you hate seems worse than what Siegel is asking of me here.....Just something else to think about. [🙂]
autofixer
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PitGuy, If I recall, I had to take a 10% pay cut so that YOUUNS could go on strike. I supported you alright! I funded (and every single pilot that you revile) your strike so that U could remain the bloated fat sow it has been for years to come. Finally, winding up in Ch 11! Good luck! By the way, I will need a transmission rebuilder to work for me in the first quarter of next year...anyone qualified? [🙁] [🙁] [🙁] [:devil:]
autofixer....Thank you for your job offer as a transmission rebuilder. As a matter of fact, I've done some tranny work in the past...Hey , you remember back in the 70's,, There was a rock & roll group that came out with a song called "signs"?,, I believe some of the lyrics went like this; ""SO I TOOK OFF MY HAT, AND SAID "IMAGINE THAT" ME, WORKING FOR YOU !! [😉] Try to have a nice day.
[/quote]
Or, how about this...take the groups that won't agree to help with the requested cuts, contract out as many jobs as you can. Then either furlough or fire the rest. Boom, a profitable company. Allin favor?[:0]
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Most of the jobs are "contracted"....ie cargo, us dot.com to start with. Would you like yours contracted out? I'm just trying to survive. I want this company to be here for a long time. I was hoping to have a career here. However, I do not want to "give" back - just to support another employee group or worse yet, another upper management bonus.
[:blackeye:]
Or, how about this...take the groups that won't agree to help with the requested cuts, contract out as many jobs as you can. Then either furlough or fire the rest. Boom, a profitable company. Allin favor?[:0]
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[/quote]
Most of the jobs are "contracted"....ie cargo, us dot.com to start with. Would you like yours contracted out? I'm just trying to survive. I want this company to be here for a long time. I was hoping to have a career here. However, I do not want to "give" back - just to support another employee group or worse yet, another upper management bonus.
[:blackeye:]
C
chipmunn
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AOG-N-IT
AOG-N-IT said: My point is being recieved by at least one other person. A "Yes Vote" gives us a chance to fix the "Stabalization Issues" , first and foremost...The "Union Issues" can be hammered out in the aftermath of an achieved stabalization...The only issue for now , is keeping USAiways in as big of a remaining piece as possible. We can't grow out of this problem from liquidation. The attitude that we can continue to negotiate and negotiate is not practical. Time is running out on getting the needed funding...without it all coming together , It's GAME OVER!!!!!!!
AOG-N-IT said: I have read numerous accounts in the national press about the job market. By most accounts 60 to 70% of the workforce that has been displaced since the start of the current economic downturn and Post Sept. 11th fallout, have returned to work in some capacity. The figures are..That of that perecentage..the return was to 64% of thier previous income. This does not even delve into the lack of job satisfaction in thier current positions. These are all valid issues. Somehow an average drop of 36% in money , at a job you hate seems worse than what Siegel is asking of me here.....Just something else to think about.
Chip comments: AOG-N-IT, your points are valid, well-taken, and non-emotional. I agree with your thoughts based on facts and thanks for bringing this viewpoint to the discussion.
Chip
AOG-N-IT said: My point is being recieved by at least one other person. A "Yes Vote" gives us a chance to fix the "Stabalization Issues" , first and foremost...The "Union Issues" can be hammered out in the aftermath of an achieved stabalization...The only issue for now , is keeping USAiways in as big of a remaining piece as possible. We can't grow out of this problem from liquidation. The attitude that we can continue to negotiate and negotiate is not practical. Time is running out on getting the needed funding...without it all coming together , It's GAME OVER!!!!!!!
AOG-N-IT said: I have read numerous accounts in the national press about the job market. By most accounts 60 to 70% of the workforce that has been displaced since the start of the current economic downturn and Post Sept. 11th fallout, have returned to work in some capacity. The figures are..That of that perecentage..the return was to 64% of thier previous income. This does not even delve into the lack of job satisfaction in thier current positions. These are all valid issues. Somehow an average drop of 36% in money , at a job you hate seems worse than what Siegel is asking of me here.....Just something else to think about.
Chip comments: AOG-N-IT, your points are valid, well-taken, and non-emotional. I agree with your thoughts based on facts and thanks for bringing this viewpoint to the discussion.
Chip
