Vatican Study

[SparrowHawk]

Thank God all the other religions are perfect.

Well you're WRONG!

ALL Religion are perfect to their believers. It's NOT the religions fault. It's the believer who creates the problem.

God didn't rape any small boys, however some of his most devout followers DID!

In the Roman Catholic realm we have sins of Omission and sins of Commission. I'd argue that the sins of omission committed by those devout believers in hiding the facts and those involved by shifting them from parish to parish is in many ways is a far greater sin than the acts themselves perpetrated against the weakest of society, our children.

There is no flaw in the teachings of Christ! Merely with those who lead the organization. If Confession is good for the soul as is oft stated then it's long past time for those at the top to confess not only before God, but before those who trusted in them. The brethren who believe are owed an explanation and the victims an apology.

You say,"But Bob they can't apologize, they'll be sued out of existence". Well they might be and given their actions or lack thereof maybe an appropriate penance given the severity of the problem would be for the Catholic Church to cease to exist.

There are a great many Judeo-Christian values that form our society and accountability is but one of them.

 

[leprechaun]

Well you're WRONG!

ALL Religion are perfect to their believers.

Think I'll throw a WRONG back at ya. I don't think my religion is perfect, but I won't condem the hole church because of the actions of some sick people. You had a bunch of old guys who had no idea how to deal with this problem. Should they have done something about it, absolutley. To say that it is continuing is wrong.

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Think I'll throw a WRONG back at ya. I don't think my religion is perfect, but I won't condem the hole church because of the actions of some sick people. You had a bunch of old guys who had no idea how to deal with this problem. Should they have done something about it, absolutley. To say that it is continuing is wrong.

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.

In Theology especially in Christian theology God is infallible or put another way he is perfect.

In Catholicism even the Pope as God's representative on Earth is infallible.

"You had a bunch of old guys who had no idea how to deal with this problem"

Excuse me but isn't this what prayer is for? Remember God answers all prayers, just that sometime you don't like the answers. Especially those that involves significant loss of prestige and even larger sums in legal judgements.

I thought I'd see what "The Book" had to say.

Titus 1:16 from the Douay-Rheems Bible (standard RC Bible) - They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword

Perhaps it's time for the corrupt fruit to be incarcerated right along with those who covered it up?

 

[xUT]

When I see 'atheist' based charities providing the same services as faith based, then I might cut some slack. :angry:
When you yahoos can replace Glide Memorial Church (without another gooberment entity) some would reconsider. To say the all faith based food banks, soup lines, homeless support, etc.. is not worthy is total bull####.
There have been millions of people and faith based organizations that fill the gap when gooberment throws people to the wind 'around the world'.
What have atheists done besides whine?

B) xUT

 

[SparrowHawk]

When I see 'atheist' based charities providing the same services as faith based, then I might cut some slack. :angry:
When you yahoos can replace Glide Memorial Church (without another gooberment entity) some would reconsider. To say the all faith based food banks, soup lines, homeless support, etc.. is not worthy is total bull####.
There have been millions of people and faith based organizations that fill the gap when gooberment throws people to the wind 'around the world'.
What have atheists done besides whine?

B) xUT

Thus the phrase "Godless Communists". I'm very devout in my faith it's the "Church" I have a problem with.

 

[leprechaun]

In Catholicism even the Pope as God's representative on Earth is infallible.

Hmmm, do you actually know any Catholics that believe that?

Ya know, everyone is on the Catholics cause of a couple of diddlers, but where do you go when your head is spinning, your puking pea soup, and the Devil has taken up residence inside you? That's right, right to a Catholic priest, don't think your fooling anybody.

 

[tech2101]

but where do you go when your head is spinning, your puking pea soup, and the Devil has taken up residence inside you?

Normally to the porcelain god...

 

[SparrowHawk]

Hmmm, do you actually know any Catholics that believe that?

Ya know, everyone is on the Catholics cause of a couple of diddlers, but where do you go when your head is spinning, your puking pea soup, and the Devil has taken up residence inside you? That's right, right to a Catholic priest, don't think your fooling anybody.

Sorry my Friend, I wouldn't get near a priest or a Catholic Church, green puke or otherwise. Raised Southern Baptist and they don't call us "Hard Shell Baptists" for nothing. I know what I believe, and I believe in a God that never fails, the one who delivered Jonah from the belly of the whale. I won't go through a burning hell because I believe what the Bible tells and I'll conquer that old Devil if I pray.

A few "Diddlers"????

Here are a few of the highlights.

1. US clerics (priests, deacons, bishops, etc.) accused of abuse from 1950-2002: 4,392.
2. About 4% of the 109,694 serving during those 52 years.
3. Individuals making accusations: 10,667.
4. Victims' ages: 5.8% under 7; 16% ages 8-10; 50.9% ages 11-14; 27.3% ages 15-17.
5. Victims' gender: 81% male, 19% female
6. Duration of abuse: Among victims, 38.4% said all incidents occurred within one year; 21.8% said one to two years; 28%, two to four years; 11.8% longer.
7. Victims per priest: 55.7% with one alleged victim; 26.9% with two or three; 13.9% with four to nine; 3.5% with 10 or more (these 149 priests caused 27% of allegations).
8. Abuse locations: 40.9% at priest's residence; 16.3% in church; 42.8% elsewhere.

Known cost to dioceses and religious orders: $572,507,094 (does not include the $85 million Boston settlement and other expenses after research was concluded). (Hartford Courant, 2/27/04)

It should be noted that 30% of all accusations included in these figures were not investigated as they were deemed unsubstantiated (10%) or because the accused priest was dead or inactive (20%). They do not include allegations that were "unfounded" or later recanted.

In any case, all these figures are widely suspected to be grossly underestimated. For example, the late Fr. Tom Economus, former President of the Linkup, a national survivors' advocacy group, said back in the mid-90s that he knew of "1,400 insurance claims on the books and that the Church has paid out over $1 billion in liability with an estimated $500 million pending."

So there you have about a BILLION REASONS to send your kids to another church.

 

[leprechaun]

The Secret File

The Baptist General Convention of Texas keeps a secret file of ministers who are reported by churches for "sexual misconduct, including child molestation." These are ministers for whom there is either a confession or "substantial evidence" involving "sexual abuse of children." But those names sit in a file cabinet while the reported perpetrators stay in their pulpits and people in the pews aren't told

Bellevue Baptist is a flagship megachurch for Southern Baptists. It was long pastored by 3-term Southern Baptist president Adrian Rogers, and more recently, by Steve Gaines. In 2006-07, it was mired in reports of a clergy child molestation cover-up.

Minister Shawn Davies, of First Baptist Church of Greenwood, pled guilty to 21 counts of child molestation. "He was allowed to move unchecked from one Baptist church to another, sexually assaulting young boys at almost every stop along the way."

Former Southern Baptist president Jerry Vines sings the praises of Trinity Baptist Church even while numerous allegations of child sex abuse and cover-ups are being reported.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!

 

[SparrowHawk]

The Secret File

The Baptist General Convention of Texas keeps a secret file of ministers who are reported by churches for "sexual misconduct, including child molestation." These are ministers for whom there is either a confession or "substantial evidence" involving "sexual abuse of children." But those names sit in a file cabinet while the reported perpetrators stay in their pulpits and people in the pews aren't told

Bellevue Baptist is a flagship megachurch for Southern Baptists. It was long pastored by 3-term Southern Baptist president Adrian Rogers, and more recently, by Steve Gaines. In 2006-07, it was mired in reports of a clergy child molestation cover-up.

Minister Shawn Davies, of First Baptist Church of Greenwood, pled guilty to 21 counts of child molestation. "He was allowed to move unchecked from one Baptist church to another, sexually assaulting young boys at almost every stop along the way."

Former Southern Baptist president Jerry Vines sings the praises of Trinity Baptist Church even while numerous allegations of child sex abuse and cover-ups are being reported.

Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!

21 vs 1400 KNOWN Settlements, seems an accurate comparrison.

What you and the rest of the Apologists don't get and will likely NEVER get is that the Catholic Church was complicit in covering it up whereas these guys plead guilty. as for Mr Davies, he moved of his own accord unlike being shuffled about in a orchestrated web of deceit.

RE: The "Secret" file? How can it be secret if you and I know about it? If someone sued it would be disclosed during discovery.

Either which way I don't attend church and now you know why. My faith is personal to me. It's between Me & God.

 

[Ms Tree]

Let's spell this out a bit more clearly. The Pope was involved in covering up the rapes of children and he was involved in the shuffling and protection of rapists.

 

[dapoes]

Let's spell this out a bit more clearly. The Pope was involved in covering up the rapes of children and he was involved in the shuffling and protection of rapists.

You have no children. Why do you care?

 

[SparrowHawk]

You have no children. Why do you care?

I don't agree with you. Everyone in our society should care about our children. If for no other reason than we need them to pay for our Social Security. No one in society should be sexually abused under any circumstance, it's just worse when it's an innocent, like a child or someone who isn't mentally competent to legally give consent.

A civilized society should not tolerate sexual predators whether they prey upon Child or Adult. Neither should it matter whether the predator stalks their prey in a Catholic Church, Mosque or the local Starbucks.

For me as I stated earlier, the fact that there is a significant body of evidence that proves that one organization, The Catholic Church was deeply involved in covering up the widespread and systematic sexual abuse of minor children with over a BILLION in settlements paid out. I'll go so far as to say that if I were the Attorney General I'd order a full investigation and if their was evidence I'd prosecute under the RICO statutes.

It's one thing to have sexual predators in positions of power. Stuff happens, I get that. HOWEVER when you engage in a systematic attempt to cover it up then I think as an organization you should have you Sr Managers who complicit incarcerated for a significant amount of time and the organization gets to write lots and lots of settlement check to the victims.

You can't just have a Predator Priest and shuffle him off to Buffalo without consequences

 

[dapoes]

I don't agree with you. Everyone in our society should care about our children. If for no other reason than we need them to pay for our Social Security. No one in society should be sexually abused under any circumstance, it's just worse when it's an innocent, like a child or someone who isn't mentally competent to legally give consent.

A civilized society should not tolerate sexual predators whether they prey upon Child or Adult. Neither should it matter whether the predator stalks their prey in a Catholic Church, Mosque or the local Starbucks.

For me as I stated earlier, the fact that there is a significant body of evidence that proves that one organization, The Catholic Church was deeply involved in covering up the widespread and systematic sexual abuse of minor children with over a BILLION in settlements paid out. I'll go so far as to say that if I were the Attorney General I'd order a full investigation and if their was evidence I'd prosecute under the RICO statutes.

It's one thing to have sexual predators in positions of power. Stuff happens, I get that. HOWEVER when you engage in a systematic attempt to cover it up then I think as an organization you should have you Sr Managers who complicit incarcerated for a significant amount of time and the organization gets to write lots and lots of settlement check to the victims.

You can't just have a Predator Priest and shuffle him off to Buffalo without consequences

I agree completely, however our resident religion hater sure does spend a lot of time opining on problems that have no direct or indirect affect on him. The world doesn't need another hypocritical liberal telling the rest what should or should not be.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I agree completely, however our resident religion hater sure does spend a lot of time opining on problems that have no direct or indirect affect on him. The world doesn't need another hypocritical liberal telling the rest what should or should not be.

Here is a thought I had last night. Kind of of topic but not really.

In Christianity there has been a running debate for centuries, "Can a Rich Man enter Heaven"? So that made me ask:

Can an Atheist be a Libertarian? Pretty sure the answer on this is a resounding NO! Not if they're intellectually honest. How could you support Individual Liberty when according to Libertarian thinking that those individual Freedoms and Liberties are conferred not by Government but by our creator which is an explicit admission of a supreme being which according to atheists doesn't exist.

Can an Atheist be a Conservative? No Idea actually that's why I asked.

Is an atheist automatically Liberal/Progressive? I think the answer is a resounding YES. Liberal/Progressives put their faith in science and government since they have no Godhead to follow. This leads to situational ethics or what I like to call "Flexible Ethics". See in my little Christian, Jesus loving pea brain there is a whole lot more Black and white than there is shades of Grey.