Value of Concessions

[Duke787]

I find it odd that all these newbies on this board are so concerned about who is doing the most work: Imjustsayin, paul1, interested, just the facts, and duke787. Your badmouthing of fellow employees on this open forum is accomplishing exactly what? I suspect you're all one in the same. Your posts seem to be contrived and self supporting - maybe a little too obvious.....

The crew chief; and for that matter, the rest of the crew should through peer pressure be able to change bad habits of certain employees.

I'm just observing....

It's hard to apply peer pressure when you have Bob and Ken saying it's OK to not do your job. If I'm not mistaken they are both union reps.

 

[Duke787]

Well I think the point is that they really dont want people looking at the topic, that is is a Zero Cost contract, the company got exactly what they wanted, its as if we didnt even have negotiations. The company just waited two years while Don kept insisting that we "Take the high Road" and then dumped this POS out there to be voted on, along with a little unsigned leaflet telling everyone why they should vote yes while leaving out why they should vote no.

Leading up to the "meat and potatoes" Don kept saying that we should give the company what they wanted on all the other Articles and that we would get a dollar value for all those things and roll that into our economic articles. Of course that never happened, the company got everything they wanted in the language then they also got everything they wanted with the economic articles, they did this by dragging the committee to hotel rooms for three years while for the most part the company and International guys went home every night.

One of the things I asked was why was the union setting up pickets protesting Exec Bonuses and saying "the gloves are coming off" while at the same time publicly supporting anti-trust immunity for the BA, JAL deals, "working together" and every other corporate scheme to boost productivity that the company wanted. It didnt make sense, saying one thing but doing the opposite.

When you write like this I'm all behind you.This is how a union rep should talk.

When TUL gets serious about AMP then we know a new union has a chance.

 

[Bob Owens]

It's hard to apply peer pressure when you have Bob and Ken saying it's OK to not do your job. If I'm not mistaken they are both union reps.

We used to have a lot of heavy hitters, guys that would go above and beyond on a regular basis, now they give the company what the company gives to them. We would much rather go back to going above and beyond, even if meant that they didnt hire anybody for another 10 years, because to tell you the truth the job was more interesting and enjoyable when you look at each task as a challenge, but at this point it would be selfish for us to indulge ourselves while the company makes our families do without. AA's free ride is over. No Pay, no play. Its their call.

 

[Just the facts]

I find it odd that all these newbies on this board are so concerned about who is doing the most work: Imjustsayin, paul1, interested, just the facts, and duke787. Your badmouthing of fellow employees on this open forum is accomplishing exactly what? I suspect you're all one in the same. Your posts seem to be contrived and self supporting - maybe a little too obvious.....

The crew chief; and for that matter, the rest of the crew should through peer pressure be able to change bad habits of certain employees.

I'm just observing....

No more contrived than you, Bob, Ken, and Comatose. Just like minded people expressing our opinions. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure even us lowly "newbs" dont agree on every topic. As for myself, I am a 23 year "Veteran" of AA and longtime "Lurker" of these boards. As a newbie, all I can say is that I was finally motivated to get involved in these discussions. I can only hope to post enough to achieve Veteran status so that I can pretend to own these public message boards as a few others here seem to assume that has become their right.

As for the employee that I have singled out, every option available to the crew has already been applied to no avail. The guy simply does not care. I happen to be the one who usually is assigned to pick up the pieces and fix what this guy does not. In this case it is obviously managements failure to handle this issue properly, but it has become a sore spot with me.

Bragging about giving less than an honest days work is no different than badmouthing one who is guilty of same.

 

[Just the facts]

Well I think the point is that they really dont want people looking at the topic, that is is a Zero Cost contract, the company got exactly what they wanted, its as if we didnt even have negotiations. The company just waited two years while Don kept insisting that we "Take the high Road" and then dumped this POS out there to be voted on, along with a little unsigned leaflet telling everyone why they should vote yes while leaving out why they should vote no.

Leading up to the "meat and potatoes" Don kept saying that we should give the company what they wanted on all the other Articles and that we would get a dollar value for all those things and roll that into our economic articles. Of course that never happened, the company got everything they wanted in the language then they also got everything they wanted with the economic articles, they did this by dragging the committee to hotel rooms for three years while for the most part the company and International guys went home every night.

One of the things I asked was why was the union setting up pickets protesting Exec Bonuses and saying "the gloves are coming off" while at the same time publicly supporting anti-trust immunity for the BA, JAL deals, "working together" and every other corporate scheme to boost productivity that the company wanted. It didnt make sense, saying one thing but doing the opposite.

It is unfortunate that this post has moved off topic. However, it did languish for 3 1/2 days without a reply. I am disappointed that you have stooped to accusations that guys like me do not want the topic to be read. Although I disagree with most of your posts, you are obviously intelligent, informed, and passionate about what you believe and I respect and admire those qualities in you. This is an important topic.

In an attempt to move back on topic, how about some statistics I have been working on. No, "not lies, da*n lies, and then there are statistics." Just stuff I have dug up that reflect the reality of today's world. I'm not trying to influence a vote either way, as I believe it is too late at this point for impact either way.

Disclaimer: These are figures I have pulled off the internet so they must be true!
No really, I encourage everyone to question these and look them up themselves. I have pulled these from reliable sources but I'm not taking the time to cite them. Just interesting info only.

Unemployment rate 2010. 10% Historical average. 6%
Number of Fortune 500 companies offering pension. 15% (75 companies)
Average retirement age 1910. 74
Average retirement age 2009. 63
Average retirement savings Baby Boomers. $50k - $110k. Depending on whether home equity is included.
Average retirement income. $29k - $49k
US median income 2008. $52k NY $56k OK $48k

The last is a hard case. Obviously here in Okieland, the cost of living is quite low and what AA pays is usually adequate to maintain a standard of living. I'm sure the New York, NY area is quite a bit more. I honestly feel for you guys in these high cost areas and am not sure $2.55 more an hour than the bases is enough to equalize you guys with us fly over states. Now without the rhetoric, and disregarding all the language in the t/a that you dislike, what is your honest opinion. Can you maintain a decent standard of living at this wage?

 

[JimJimmyJim]

That is a good question? However, just because I can maintain a good standard of living doesn't mean I shouldn't want to make my standard of living better.

 

[Just the facts]

I agree. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to say anyone should stop there. (at a decent standard of living). But surely you agree none of us ever expected to make it "rich" in this profession. I'm trying to ask if $2.55 more per hour than the overhaul bases make, will level the playing field with those of us who live in lower cost areas?

 

[comatose]

Do what you get paid to do, fix airplanes. I didn't say go above and beyond. If you choose to be a slacker, what can we do? You're the one that has to look at your kids and be their role model. When you talk to your neighbors don't tell them you're a union mechanic, you embarrass us all with your BS attitude. "OH I got 25 years" , 25 years of being overpaid I'm sure.

Yes duke that’s exactly what I do fix airplanes and your correct I said going above and beyond.
Slacker? Please, you have no idea who I am to be throwing out those barbs. If you consider yourself a union mechanic….good for you. An embarrassment is a person who considers themselves holier than thou. If you think I said the comment about 25yrs with my chest bowed
out think again(It’s more accurate to say that’s an embarrassment). Having worked two overhaul and two line stations, your inaccurate assessment and knowledge wouldn’t fill a pimple on my butt.

 

[JimJimmyJim]

I agree. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to say anyone should stop there. (at a decent standard of living). But surely you agree none of us ever expected to make it "rich" in this profession. I'm trying to ask if $2.55 more per hour than the overhaul bases make, will level the playing field with those of us who live in lower cost areas?

I don't think that the line as a whole should make more than OH. The cost of living between say Tulsa and DFW isn't mush if any. I do think COLA should apply for the high cost cities like New York, San Fran, Boston, Philadelphia, LA , etc. FYI I'm at DFW.

 

[Duke787]

Duke, you could say that I also don’t and won’t go above and beyond because I’m not getting paid what I’m worth. I consider myself a contractor and unfortunately I have the TWU ineptly agreeing to substandard contracts. The company doesn’t pay me to care so I don’t. If they paid me to care, dam straight dependability would also increase.

I get sick and tired of the moronic talk of just quit and work somewhere else. That’s one of the reasons for the contract article for seniority. Seniority is at my age is nothing more than an anchor around my neck. I’m not going back to low man on the totem pole and throw away 25yrs.

I’m sorry, but you are so misguided if you think Bob’s dragging us down.

I can only go by what you write, and based on that, You do a half ass job that effects the dependability of the aircraft. If you ran a company, would you give a raise to a guy that does his job to the best of his ability's or would you give a raise to the guy who knowingly damage's your operation? When you non-rev, do you want the guy fixing your airplane to get it done in a timely safe manner, or do you want the guy who shows up with no tools, then takes the plane OTS, then walks away laughing, saying "F the company".

I didn't say anything about your knowledge of your job, just your work ethic. It bothers me when the union reps on this forum make excuses for this lack of "professionalism".

KUDOS to just the facts for staying on topic.

 

[Duke787]

I don't think that the line as a whole should make more than OH. The cost of living between say Tulsa and DFW isn't mush if any. I do think COLA should apply for the high cost cities like New York, San Fran, Boston, Philadelphia, LA , etc. FYI I'm at DFW.

I agree with jim, a cola raise would be the fairest, seeing how TUL does such quality work, and they have the same amount of responsibility as line guys.

 

[JimJimmyJim]

I agree with jim, a cola raise would be the fairest, seeing how TUL does such quality work, and they have the same amount of responsibility as line guys.

That's the point Duke. The company is not wanting to do the fair thing they want to do the divide thing.

 

[Bob Owens]

Now without the rhetoric, and disregarding all the language in the t/a that you dislike, what is your honest opinion. Can you maintain a decent standard of living at this wage?

No.

Not in the New York Metro Area, you have to remember that New York is a big state. So the incomes vary quite a bit, upstate would be much less than the incomes down near the Metropolitan Area and the costs would be much higher. I have a modest home, 1800 sqft, 50 miles from JFK and my property taxes are over $10,000 per year. My wife is just after finishing Nursing school, her starting pay was $3/hr more than our topped out pay.

The $2.55 line pay is something the company came up with. The Line mechanics in Tulsa get it as well so its not a Geo pay. While I think there should be premiums for working weekends, holdays and shifts I dont know if the $2.55 is warranted between people who work a mile apart, especially when you consider that the company is looking to make the bases a full fledged 24-7 operation.

 

[Just the facts]

Wow! Those property taxes are both eye opening and mind blowing! Looks like Geo pay/COLA should be a definate must have. Do any other airlines have this?

 

[Bob Owens]

I can only go by what you write, and based on that, You do a half ass job that effects the dependability of the aircraft. If you ran a company, would you give a raise to a guy that does his job to the best of his ability's or would you give a raise to the guy who knowingly damage's your operation? When you non-rev, do you want the guy fixing your airplane to get it done in a timely safe manner, or do you want the guy who shows up with no tools, then takes the plane OTS, then walks away laughing, saying "F the company".

I didn't say anything about your knowledge of your job, just your work ethic. It bothers me when the union reps on this forum make excuses for this lack of "professionalism".

KUDOS to just the facts for staying on topic.

One of the things that you dont seem to realize is the effect of the RLA. Because of the RLA the company can drag talks on indefinately so our options to pressure the company into making a fair deal in a timely manner are limited. If you act with "professionalism" they laugh all the way to the bank as they drag talks on and on.


The NMB is not a "neutral", their interests align with those of the company. You need to read up on the history of the RLA to see whats going on here. The RLA was formed because conditions were so bad that there were intermittant disruptions to commerce along the rail systems, so the Government decided that maybe it was a good idea to put up a framework where Unions and Carriers could come to systemwide agreements without causing disruptions to commerce. It was crafted by the industry and the Unions but over time all the things that were favorable to unions were stripped away, so what we are left with is a structure thats there to prevent interruptions to commerce while still putting forth the facade that we are free Americans and have the same rights as other workers.

We dont, we are more like Government workers without the security and benifits.

Your "legal" options to act collectively in your best interests have been eliminated. Your only option is to collectively act individually, if that makes sense. In other words the Union cant tell you to put pressure on the company but if you see the way things are going and you all start putting pressure on the company at the same time, without overt direction from the union you accomplish the same thing. You are doing what the NMB seeks to avoid. Our only weapon, and its a potent one, is to interupt commerce and its the only realistic way to put pressure on the sytem to meet our needs.

In 2003 the company and the union initiated talks to open an existing agreement and amended it within one month, however talks this time started in 2007 and the company is still insisting an more concessions. This was not a negotiated agreement, it was a take it or leave it deal. The negotaitors were lead to believe by the International that we should take it back to the members as is. After three years its obvious that many of the Locals are going broke and the negotiators are worn out from travelling back and forth with very little to show for those efforts.

The Company can afford to wait because inflation continues to extract concessions from us, along with their ability to jack up our Medical by 500%.

The NMB doesnt care whats going on as long as people and goods are being moved by the carrier. So as long as people like you continue to try to live up this idea of "professionalism" neither the NMB nor the company see a problem. They could go on like this indefinately, while your financial situation may become intolerable they figure that since you are still performing adequately that the pay is adequate. That is exactly how both the NMB and the company thinks. Its only when they see lots of airplanes out of service that they take an interest in our problems.

So you can continue to consider yourself as a "professional" while both the NMB and company abuse the system and play you for a fool but thats how things are in this game under these twisted rules. I would much rather be under the NLRA, if we dont have an agreement by the amendable date we can walk out, period, no nonsense, no endless negotations (but only when it in the companys favor) and no games. When you work you give 100%, when you dont have an agreement you dont work untill you do. Clean, clear and easy to follow.

Negotiations started in 2007 for us, in 2006 for Dispatch, so for us our real pay has declined another 9%. Lets say we vote this down, which I hope we do. The company doesnt lose anything really, if they drag things out another year our real pay declines another 3% and as long as guys like you are more concerned about your professional image than your wallet they will continue to drag things out.

What you have before you in this TA is a zero cost contract, if we accept it it costs them nothing, if we reject it it costs them nothing if you are willing to keep doing your best to maintain their schedule. Ironically when it comes to negotiations everything you seem to believe is the opposite, the better you work now the less the company is willing to give, the worse you do the more pressure they feel to throw money at you to try and get back what they know you can deliver. If this deal is ratified the company is going to expect to see an improvement in performance, thats why they targeted what little increases there were towards the line, because our performance is not what it could be.

My position is that this is an unfair deal to all of us and there will be no improvement even if it passes and I hope I'm right. If there is improvement it would only engourage and embolden the company to s4i+ on us even more.

When/if we come to an agreement thats fair i would encourage everyone to give AA their best. If you go back to 2002 thats exactly what I was saying. The comapny broke the deal. We didnt make these rules and we cant change them but we have to find a way to try and level the field while working within them. It may meaning soiling your "image".